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Joe Biden beats Donald Trump, officially making Trump a one-term twice impeached, twice popular-vote losing president

SaysWho?

By SaysWho?
in The Political Re-Education Camp

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SaysWho?

SaysWho?

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3 hours ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

The only objective reason to vote for him from the left perspective is as follows: maybe, just maybe, Clearance Thomas dies in office, or so does RBG or Breyer, or if we're really fortunate Roberts or Kav will get covid or whatever, and Biden has a democratic senate to replace one or more of them. If there's a chance to break the conservative courts, particularly SCOTUS, the conservative project of the last generation has failed and minoritarian rule is adverted for the time being.

 

Not only is this a good left argument, but it's a fucking big deal.

 

I told someone I know, who said she's wait until 2024 to get a better Democrat, that your better Democrat would be the perfect candidate yet would have to deal with a possible 7-2 extremist conservative majority.

 

To those freaking out that someone like her may possibly goof up, I've fortunately seen many hardcore Bernie supporters, to which I was one, recognize this point, and even someone who straight-up hates Biden ready to vote for him on this basis.

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b_m_b_m_b_m

b_m_b_m_b_m

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3 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Not only is this a good left argument, but it's a fucking big deal.

 

I told someone I know, who said she's wait until 2024 to get a better Democrat, that your better Democrat would be the perfect candidate yet would have to deal with a possible 7-2 extremist conservative majority.

 

To those freaking out that someone like her may possibly goof up, I've fortunately seen many hardcore Bernie supporters, to which I was one, recognize this point, and even someone who straight-up hates Biden ready to vote for him on this basis.

I mean to say that it's the only argument for anyone on the left who, rightly imo, sees that you won't be able to push Biden left, he is what he is, BUT he is also the former chair of the judiciary committee and has a long record of supporting "good" judges that, for example, probably would not gut an expanded ACA or Medicare for all, or a green new deal, or even funding higher education and the elimination of student debt. Again, see the 5-4 podcast episode titled "the Biden court" for some more details here. 

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SaysWho?

SaysWho?

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35 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

I mean to say that it's the only argument for anyone on the left who, rightly imo, sees that you won't be able to push Biden left, he is what he is, BUT he is also the former chair of the judiciary committee and has a long record of supporting "good" judges that, for example, probably would not gut an expanded ACA or Medicare for all, or a green new deal, or even funding higher education and the elimination of student debt. Again, see the 5-4 podcast episode titled "the Biden court" for some more details here. 

 

I'm not going to promise I'll check it out soon, but I will take a note of it. As far as the judges go, I agree. It's why I don't get the logic of people who think they're only voting for the president. A vote for the president is a vote for the Supreme Court. It's how it's always been, but now at least the Republicans aren't using the stupid "litmus test" argument when that clearly was code for, "I'm going to try to appoint super conservative judges." Progressives can get a perfect candidate in 2024, but the courts nationwide will stunt what they can do, or prevent it entirely.

 

Same goes for local/state candidates. Maybe you don't have an AOC or Jamaal Bowman, but this year affects gerrymandering. You want more opportunities to elect progressives? Make it possible for more Democrats to win seats for an entire decade. More progressives you can run, more primaries against people who are too conservative for their district.

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SuperSpreader

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8 hours ago, Brick said:

A friend of mine just shared this on Facebook from some FB page, and anyone want to help me dismantle this, and offer any counters?

 

 

Aside from the obvious of "THIS ISN'T HELPING", and while I get the two party system is shit, come on, Biden is a much better choice than Trump because *gestures at everything going on*. Biden may not be for some of the important things listed, but I think the party can actually persuade him into more progressive policies down the line, and that's assuming he doesn't at some point step down for Kamala to take over.

It's a poem for liberals who want to keep losing. 

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b_m_b_m_b_m

b_m_b_m_b_m

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17 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

I'm not going to promise I'll check it out soon, but I will take a note of it. As far as the judges go, I agree. It's why I don't get the logic of people who think they're only voting for the president. A vote for the president is a vote for the Supreme Court. It's how it's always been, but now at least the Republicans aren't using the stupid "litmus test" argument when that clearly was code for, "I'm going to try to appoint super conservative judges." Progressives can get a perfect candidate in 2024, but the courts nationwide will stunt what they can do, or prevent it entirely.

 

Same goes for local/state candidates. Maybe you don't have an AOC or Jamaal Bowman, but this year affects gerrymandering. You want more opportunities to elect progressives? Make it possible for more Democrats to win seats for an entire decade. More progressives you can run, more primaries against people who are too conservative for their district.

Also realize that the conservative movement wasn't born in a week or even a decade. The conservative reaction to the new deal, specifically, goes back to the new deal, but only electorally viable in one form or another since 1964, achieving great success with the election of Reagan in 80.

 

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SaysWho?

SaysWho?

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14 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Also realize that the conservative movement wasn't born in a week or even a decade. The conservative reaction to the new deal, specifically, goes back to the new deal, but only electorally viable in one form or another since 1964, achieving great success with the election of Reagan in 80.

 

 

Yes!

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SaysWho?

SaysWho?

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25 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Also realize that the conservative movement wasn't born in a week or even a decade. The conservative reaction to the new deal, specifically, goes back to the new deal, but only electorally viable in one form or another since 1964, achieving great success with the election of Reagan in 80.

 

 

And I think progressives can underestimate the speed of the victories they're notching. My guess is some of them are aware but want things to go much quicker (and for climate change, absolutely), but I feel like some don't think there's any progressive representation or room in the party.

 

Elizabeth Warren's idea for a Consumer Financial Protection Bureau became a reality.

Bernie would have done how well in 2000? 1992? He probably would have went nowhere. Now, he was one top 2 in 2016 and 2020.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez defeated a powerful Democrat (and potential future Speaker of the House) in a primary in 2018.

Jamaal Bowman defeated the Chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee -- a 30-year incumbent -- in a primary.

The Squad all won their primaries by comfortable margins.

Ed Markey defeated a Kennedy in Massachusetts by trying to outflank Kennedy from the left and on his AOC endorsement due to his work on the Green New Deal.

In Kentucky, Charles Booker came within three points of the heavily funded and establishment-promoted candidate despite only getting much recognition in the final few weeks.

The original Medicare-for-All idea was in the original Medicare. Now it's getting widespread attention and momentum. It'll still be a while mostly likely.

 

That's in around 10 years.

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b_m_b_m_b_m

b_m_b_m_b_m

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37 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

That's in around 10 years

Counterpoint: no, it's not.

 

Democrats in Virginia, where we now have a trifecta, have not come close to repealing right to work and forcing the state, independent cities, localities/counties to bargain with a union, even knowing that Unionization benefits democrats to the tune of 2-3 points on downballot races, and 3.5% in presidential elections when compared to states and regions with right to work laws.

 

Now you may ask why democrats do not use this to help themselves, knowing that republicans go after right to work (and unions generally) for this very reason, and that's a fair question. I submit that it is because much of the democratic coalition is beholden to corporate interests because of the easy money these interests put into protecting against unionization (watching their own bottom line, so this includes other issues like M4A) and that many democratic electeds, including in Virginia Dr. Governor Blackface, are former republicans themselves who are true believers in this policy!

 

All of this aside from the general timidity of democratic officials, cowering in fear of actually using their power, instead they are focusing on holding their majority through the next election, or worse still: trying to use republican logic in good faith when they are definitely not using whatever logic they use in good faith. Republicans aren't afraid to get fairly unpopular stuff done, even if it costs them the next election, because they realize the work they have done is bigger than one election, particularly if it meets the long term goal of their project, knowing full well democrats won't undo this work.

 

My point being that we have a long, long way to go, imo, before we can say some of these things are even 10 years away.

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SaysWho?

SaysWho?

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3 hours ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Counterpoint: no, it's not.

 

Democrats in Virginia, where we now have a trifecta, have not come close to repealing right to work and forcing the state, independent cities, localities/counties to bargain with a union, even knowing that Unionization benefits democrats to the tune of 2-3 points on downballot races, and 3.5% in presidential elections when compared to states and regions with right to work laws.

 

Now you may ask why democrats do not use this to help themselves, knowing that republicans go after right to work (and unions generally) for this very reason, and that's a fair question. I submit that it is because much of the democratic coalition is beholden to corporate interests because of the easy money these interests put into protecting against unionization (watching their own bottom line, so this includes other issues like M4A) and that many democratic electeds, including in Virginia Dr. Governor Blackface, are former republicans themselves who are true believers in this policy!

 

All of this aside from the general timidity of democratic officials, cowering in fear of actually using their power, instead they are focusing on holding their majority through the next election, or worse still: trying to use republican logic in good faith when they are definitely not using whatever logic they use in good faith. Republicans aren't afraid to get fairly unpopular stuff done, even if it costs them the next election, because they realize the work they have done is bigger than one election, particularly if it meets the long term goal of their project, knowing full well democrats won't undo this work.

 

My point being that we have a long, long way to go, imo, before we can say some of these things are even 10 years away.

 

I'm not saying M4A is in 10 years. I'm saying all that happened in around 10 years.

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Ghost_MH

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2 hours ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

This means that they could delete your record of being a registered voter meaning that you probably can't submit a paper ballot much less get it counted

 

Best way to do that would be to delete the record of registered Democrats in competitive districts/states and those of Republicans in strong blue districts/states. If you do it right, then the numbers come out and even, so the narrative gets to be that both Republicans and Democrats were equally affected by faulty voter rolls.

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b_m_b_m_b_m

b_m_b_m_b_m

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29 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Best way to do that would be to delete the record of registered Democrats in competitive districts/states and those of Republicans in strong blue districts/states. If you do it right, then the numbers come out and even, so the narrative gets to be that both Republicans and Democrats were equally affected by faulty voter rolls.

Or just all registered voters in Miami Dade and/or Broward counties. Poorly run Democrat counties! Sad!

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Brick

Brick

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On 9/9/2020 at 2:36 AM, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Biden won't be pushed left or persuaded to do x, y, or z, just look at his history. It's fucking stupid to think so especially in light of his recent assurances to Wall Street on placating "the Warren people".

 

The only objective reason to vote for him from the left perspective is as follows: maybe, just maybe, Clearance Thomas dies in office, or so does RBG or Breyer, or if we're really fortunate Roberts or Kav will get covid or whatever, and Biden has a democratic senate to replace one or more of them. If there's a chance to break the conservative courts, particularly SCOTUS, the conservative project of the last generation has failed and minoritarian rule is adverted for the time being. This is why I'm for packing the court. All the chicanery, suppression, gerrymandering, voter roll purges, etc, it possibly ends. That's what is keeping the conservatives in power, their bullshit is supported by the courts and it is what allows the doubling down on the white nationalist shit and not having to appeal to the growing non-white majority. Every conservative on the court has been funneled through the federalist society ringer and no matter what social wins you might occasionally get, this is their core tenant, and they will not deviate on this. The party has committed to this doubling down of white nationalism instead of embracing the other route for the right, as outlined in the 2012 post-mortum of moderating, listening to and responding in kind to Hispanic and other growing voter blocks.

 

If minoritarian rule lasts it will be through violence, ultimately, and the courts, if we have a 7-2 conservative majority on the bench (and not withstanding or ignoring the lower courts as well) this, all of this you see around you today, will only and out of necessity, get worse as they cling to power. 

 

I highly recommend listening to the most recent episode of the 5-4 podcast on voting rights. It echoes a lot of what I have said here and then some. Good pod, too.

 

You're right about the courts, ss that can have repercussions for decades to come. If Biden does win then maybe RBG, and some of the other older liberal judges will retire so that younger liberal judges can take their place, and protect important issues like Roe V. Wade, which the conservatives are dead set on reversing. Maybe it is naïve of me to think Biden can be persuaded (not being American I'm not super familiar on his history), but I can't help but hope out hope that others in the party, and of course the people, will help to push him a little more left on issues. At the very least with Biden winning, and other Democrats getting voted in down the ballet they can maybe make some positive changes. For example Biden might not be for legalizing marijuana on the national level, but perhaps a state that goes from Red to Blue will have a new Governor that legalizes it statewide. 

 

 

 

 

Incidentally, I responded to my friend's post using much of what you said, including @Chairslinger's more cheeky response, combined with what I initially said in my post, and this is what he had to say,

 

"the numbers on the coronavirus deaths are over-inflated by AT LEAST 20% which would put it in the same margin as common influenza. George Floyd was originally counted as a corona death ffs. 

*gesturing at everything* is doing what? you have the first global pandemic in the world and race riots instigated by the democratic party using BLM to collect campaign funds. what are you expecting, a tea party? Biden can hardly form a sentence and you expect a better job?

I'm not a trump supporter or a conservative by any means but it doesn't take a genius to realize that you're choosing between 2 evil people. One of which is just a career politician that's done more damage to black communities than the KKK, and participated in the literal war crimes. I don't need to go over Trump scandals, you hear them in the news daily. point of the post is at the end of the day you're just picking your oppression. The only thing it's "not helping" is a bias vote. if you're picking 1 piece of shit over another, it helps to know how big of a turd you're dealing with. it's "not helping' if you turn a blind eye to your own parties' faults and shortcomings. 

If Biden gets elected, (and don't get me wrong I am hopeful he wins), theres a mountain of issues and scandals that have to be addressed. It's not a "WIN" for anyone, its at best a less risky loss."

 

There's a lot to unpack here. 

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Massdriver

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@Brick, that's a lot to digest. With respect to covid-19 deaths, if it's the same as the seasonal flu, I would ask him why hospitals start to overflow when distancing and mask wearing are not followed in various states and nations . Many cities have had to resort to refrigerator trucks for storing dead bodies at different times. This isn't normal.  

 

I don't consider the rest worth responding to (actually nothing there is). It's interesting black communities are so supportive of Biden when he has apparently done so much damage. Maybe he wants to clean some of that damage up. He certainly seems more supportive of criminal justice reform than Trump.

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CitizenVectron

CitizenVectron

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34 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

@Brick, that's a lot to digest. With respect to covid-19 deaths, if it's the same as the seasonal flu, I would ask him why hospitals start to overflow when distancing and mask wearing are not followed in various states and nations . Many cities have had to resort to refrigerator trucks for storing dead bodies at different times. This isn't normal.  

 

I don't consider the rest worth responding to (actually nothing there is). It's interesting black communities are so supportive of Biden when he has apparently done so much damage. Maybe he wants to clean some of that damage up. He certainly seems more supportive of criminal justice reform than Trump.

 

Also it's "close" to the seasonal flu with continent-wide large-scale precautions and efforts. What would it be, otherwise?

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Brick

Brick

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8 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

Also it's "close" to the seasonal flu with continent-wide large-scale precautions and efforts. What would it be, otherwise?

 

Yes but don't you see, it's only really deadly to the old and the sick, so we need to reopen the country for our freedom! It's unconstitutional! :silly:

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