Stop demonizing Trump supporters.

[Uaarkson]

4 minutes ago, Emperor Diocletian II said:

At this point, I will honestly say that the optimal outcome is the (relatively peaceful) dissolution of the United States or its reformation into a "confederation" rather than a "federation".

 

The country is simply too large and too diverse (politically, socially, economically) for it to effectively tackle this "Age of Crisis".

 

Jesus I can’t wait.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

6 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

That doesn't solve the problem that the underlying issue here is the urban/rural divide.

 

You're assuming that the dissolution would occur along the current state boundaries which is something that I don't necessarily ascribe to.

[legend]

2 minutes ago, CayceG said:

 

Not the majority and not in the direct way that has the most impact. 

 

What I mean to get at there is exemplified by the Affordable Care Act. My mom worked (and still does) at a small pharmacy run by a greedy miser that doesn't pay his employees well. My mom had to buy expensive insurance before. After the ACA became law, it got more expensive and if she didn't buy it she--a woman in her 50s--would go without... AND pay a tax for it. I've talked with her about this and we BOTH agree that it should just be free and available. 

 

The Democratic policies the majority of the party push don't want to pass a straight Medicare For All bill to do that. It's always about wonkery. Look at Liz Warren's 6 year plan to institute M4A that hinged on this convoluted incrementalist roadmap! 

 

The Dems gaining power and instituting their actual party policies would not appreciably affect lives like my mom's. Because their policies aren't good enough. They don't go far enough. And they are never conceived to solve the heart of any issue. 

 

Does that mean I'm against them? No. I punched one in for Biden--and for the progressive, black single mother running for Lamar Alexander's seat against a Trump-backed Republican. But that just means that it's a constant fight to get what we want: a better country for everyone. 

 

I appreciate that you voted for Biden, I really do. I also appreciate and entirely sympathize with the democratic party not being united behind big ideas.  But I still don't see how you can get to democratic policies not helping rural people more. I can't really comment on your anecdote about your mom - I know nothing about it other than the little you've said. But the ACA *did* help a lot of people, and even the weak goals of Biden to expand it are a vast improvement compared to where the GOP wants to go. And it seems like if you're conceding "yes the republican's want even worse" that it's not really consistent with an objection to the claim that democrats will help them more. And if more rural communities acknowledged that fact and voted democratic, by your own reasoning the democrats would do even more since right now you see their efforts as "compromise" out of necessity.  So once again, we arrive at the conclusion that rural communities voting republican are doing themselves a disservice and they'd be helped more by democrats.

 

If you temper  your objection to "democrats don't do nearly as much as we would want, so lets not sing their praises" I will, however, agree with that!  

[CayceG]

1 minute ago, legend said:

 

I appreciate that you voted for Biden, I really do. I also appreciate and entirely sympathize with the democratic party not being united behind big ideas.  But I still don't see how you can get to democratic policies not helping rural people more. I can't really comment on your anecdote about your mom - I know nothing about it other than the little you've said. But the ACA *did* help a lot of people, and even the weak goals of Biden to expand it are a vast improvement compared to where the GOP wants to go. And it seems like if you're conceding "yes the republican's want even worse" that it's not really consistent with an objection to the claim that democrats will help them more. And if more rural communities acknowledged that fact and voted democratic, by your own reasoning the democrats would do even more since right now you see their efforts as "compromise" out of necessity.  So once again, we arrive at the conclusion that rural communities voting republican are doing themselves a disservice and they'd be helped more by democrats.

 

If you temper  your objection to "democrats don't do nearly as much as we would want, so lets not sing their praises" I will, however, agree with that!  

 

But is what the ACA doing really HELP for the people that can't afford it regardless? You and I probably benefited. A lot of people maybe worse off than us but better off than hillbillies probably saw tangible benefits. 

 

I've never said that people voting for Republicans aren't voting against their own best interests. But it's a difference between the Republican policies being harmful and the Democratic policies not being helpful. I want the Democratic policies to be actively beneficial. 

 

 

Much like the current moment with the pandemic response--Trump's response is harmful. Biden's response will hopefully be more than harm reduction and be actively beneficial. 

 

And I would say something like "you don't get rewarded for simply NOT hurting me." But that's completely false because Republican voters in flyover country, and the rural poor in general ARE hurt by R policies and DO reward them for the red meat they're thrown, in the way skillz mentioned. 

The main criticism in the OP is that the Dems just don't pay any attention to the rural poor. And that's not the only group that's invisible to Dems. 

 

Democrats have to do better, and the supporters of Democrats have to push them to do better. 

[BloodyHell]

5 minutes ago, legend said:

 

I appreciate that you voted for Biden, I really do. I also appreciate and entirely sympathize with the democratic party not being united behind big ideas.  But I still don't see how you can get to democratic policies not helping rural people more. I can't really comment on your anecdote about your mom - I know nothing about it other than the little you've said. But the ACA *did* help a lot of people, and even the weak goals of Biden to expand it are a vast improvement compared to where the GOP wants to go. And it seems like if you're conceding "yes the republican's want even worse" that it's not really consistent with an objection to the claim that democrats will help them more. And if more rural communities acknowledged that fact and voted democratic, by your own reasoning the democrats would do even more since right now you see their efforts as "compromise" out of necessity.  So once again, we arrive at the conclusion that rural communities voting republican are doing themselves a disservice and they'd be helped more by democrats.

 

If you temper  your objection to "democrats don't do nearly as much as we would want, so lets not sing their praises" I will, however, agree with that!  

Nawww. M4A shouldn’t be debatable. The idea is not to force the voters to the candidates view, but the candidates to the voters. But the democrats care about investors.

 

Biden gets my vote based on the alternative, not on his own merits. Im not particularly excited about Harris either. Im certainly not going to pretend that I believe they will help anyone beyond not being the Trump Administration 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 minute ago, CayceG said:

 

But is what the ACA doing really HELP for the people that can't afford it regardless? You and I probably benefited. A lot of people maybe worse off than us but better off than hillbillies probably saw tangible benefits. 

 

I've never said that people voting for Republicans aren't voting against their own best interests. But it's a difference between the Republican policies being harmful and the Democratic policies not being helpful. I want the Democratic policies to be actively beneficial. 

 

 

Much like the current moment with the pandemic response--Trump's response is harmful. Biden's response will hopefully be more than harm reduction and be actively beneficial. 

 

And I would say something like "you don't get rewarded for simply NOT hurting me." But that's completely false because Republican voters in flyover country, and the rural poor in general ARE hurt by R policies and DO reward them for the red meat they're thrown, in the way skillz mentioned. 

The main criticism in the OP is that the Dems just don't pay any attention to the rural poor. And that's not the only group that's invisible to Dems. 

 

Democrats have to do better, and the supporters of Democrats have to push them to do better. 

The medicaid expansion did more to help expand coverage than any other part of that law, and that is targeted exclusively towards the poor and lower working classes

[BloodyHell]

Man, I can’t fucking believe it’s tomorrow!

[CayceG]

3 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

The medicaid expansion did more to help expand coverage than any other part of that law, and that is targeted exclusively towards the poor and lower working classes

 

It's good for who it worked for, but it only got adopted by 39 states and DC. Almost the entirety of the south as well as large parts of the midwest did not adopt it. 

 

Status of State Medicaid Expansion Decisions: Interactive Map | KFF

WWW.KFF.ORG

---

This page displays an interactive map of the current status of state decisions on the Affordable Care Act’s Medicaid expansion. Additional Medicaid expansion resources are listed (with links)…

 

 

It was good for the places it was adopted in. The national policy did not address the issue on a national level. It kicked it down to the states, invariably meaning that some would ignore it completely. 

It's more wonky stuff that doesn't solve the issue for good. 

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

I agree, which is why medicaid (state administered) is in many cases subpar an option when compared to medicare (federally administered)

[thewhyteboar]

 

I've posted this before, but AOC seems to be the only one who gets it. The government has the capability to improve the lives of Americans right now. A Biden administration had better do it, or we are truly fucked.

[johnny]

10 minutes ago, thewhyteboar said:

 

I've posted this before, but AOC seems to be the only one who gets it. The government has the capability to improve the lives of Americans right now. A Biden administration had better do it, or we are truly fucked.

Nancy pelosi coming in like 

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

15 minutes ago, thewhyteboar said:

 

I've posted this before, but AOC seems to be the only one who gets it. The government has the capability to improve the lives of Americans right now. A Biden administration had better do it, or we are truly fucked.

 

She identified exactly what I've been harping on about. 

 

That cab driver and those people walking by the halal grocery WILL vote for a nightmarish Republican fascist who is intelligent enough to dump the racism and appeal to their material concerns.

[Joe]

3 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

She identified exactly what I've been harping on about. 

 

That cab driver and those people walking by the halal grocery WILL vote for a nightmarish Republican fascist who is intelligent enough to dump the racism and appeal to their material concerns.

 

This was the popular take after the 2012 election. It never happened.

[run32.dll]

8 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

This was the popular take after the 2012 election. It never happened.

 

Yet. If you look around at what's going on it's clear this current era of capitalism is coming to an end. The last time the system crashed this bad we got the New Deal to squash the rising labor movement that was becoming a threat of a potential full scale revolution. Having seen what happened in Russia they were willing to make some concessions to keep power. However around the same time Germany was in a similarly bad situation. The liberals refused to unify with the socialists and even the social democrats chose to throw them under the bus. With no adequate left answer to the collapse the German public instead got fascism. Capital will find a way to maintain its power for a bit longer and it will choose whatever is ready to go to protect them. We're in a situation more similar to the Weimar Republic right now than we are to our own country back then. The fascists are better poised to capitalize. They have a man on TV, they have elected officials, they have children willing to go to another state and murder people, they have a man that won pulling at the same sentiments and activating the right groups, and they have a party that is willing to win at all costs if enough is in it for them.

[legend]

2 hours ago, CayceG said:

 

But is what the ACA doing really HELP for the people that can't afford it regardless? You and I probably benefited. A lot of people maybe worse off than us but better off than hillbillies probably saw tangible benefits. 

 

I actually don't think the ACA benefited me personally a lot, because I've never been denied coverage and have been fairly fortunate in life.

 

2 hours ago, CayceG said:

 

I've never said that people voting for Republicans aren't voting against their own best interests. But it's a difference between the Republican policies being harmful and the Democratic policies not being helpful. I want the Democratic policies to be actively beneficial. 

 

I don't think there is a  meaningful difference between "not harmful" and "helpful" in this kind of context. You make choices by how good they are relative to your other options. Even if a good M4A plan eventually gets implemented thereby giving all people access to decent health care, many people will still struggle in life and there will be more work to be done to make the world better. So I think we can keep dangling the "helpful" carrot for quite some time.

 

But perhaps then our main disagreement is just semantics if we both agree "the democrats would be better for rural people."

 

 

2 hours ago, CayceG said:

Much like the current moment with the pandemic response--Trump's response is harmful. Biden's response will hopefully be more than harm reduction and be actively beneficial. 

 

And I would say something like "you don't get rewarded for simply NOT hurting me." But that's completely false because Republican voters in flyover country, and the rural poor in general ARE hurt by R policies and DO reward them for the red meat they're thrown, in the way skillz mentioned. 

The main criticism in the OP is that the Dems just don't pay any attention to the rural poor. And that's not the only group that's invisible to Dems. 

 

Democrats have to do better, and the supporters of Democrats have to push them to do better. 

 

I certainly have no qualms with pushing the dems to be better. I wish Biden was.

[MarSolo]

40 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

This was the popular take after the 2012 election. It never happened.

That’s because Trump ended up winning. Paul Ryan was all but ready with a post mortem of what they did wrong and how to reach minorities, then Trump won and he ripped that paper up. 
 

53 minutes ago, johnny said:

Nancy pelosi coming in like 

 

 

Okay, sidebar, I see this meme all the time and have no clue what Sean Astin movie this is.

[69los]

8 minutes ago, MarSolo said:

That’s because Trump ended up winning. Paul Ryan was all but ready with a post mortem of what they did wrong and how to reach minorities, then Trump won and he ripped that paper up. 
 

 

Okay, sidebar, I see this meme all the time and have no clue what Sean Astin movie this is.

Encino Man

[Keyser_Soze]

34 minutes ago, MarSolo said:

Okay, sidebar, I see this meme all the time and have no clue what Sean Astin movie this is.

 

Encino Man

 

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Fizzle's sentiment is being acknowledged in the mainstream.  My Midwestern-populated friend's list just shared this article:

 

The man and the record

WWW.TOLEDOBLADE.COM

---

“He’s unpresidential.” “He’s crude and unkind.” “He’s just not a good man.” Read more Blade editorials These things, and much worse, are commonly said ...

 

Rural white "rednecks" don't care that Trump is abrasive or has (directly) caused harm to others.  They, like the man they support, only really care about what can be done for them.  That's all that matters.  There is no, or very limited, scope to think about the common good.  And in my area most people are doing just fine, financially, yet they still only care about getting just a little bit more--the capitalistic dream.  As @legend lamented earlier, brainstorming a way to fix these issues is extremely difficult.  Because everything is intertwined at the systemic level--the root being capitalism of course.  We would have to change our outlook on the world. Even though we have the resources to ensure everyone can live a decent life, we are stuck in the competitive mode of limited supply.

[skillzdadirecta]

Once other thing... Trump supporters didn't just choose him over Hillary and the Democrats. They chose him over FIFTEEN other Republicans. People constantly leave that part out. Fifteen other Republicans who were more qualified than him and who shared a lot of his views (without being so crass about it) were rejected in favor of this moron for the simple fact that they didn't go far enough. I thought the fallacy of the Trump supporter being motivated by economic anxiety was discounted years ago. Folks are still using this bullshit excuse, huh?

[MarSolo]

Trump supporters are so dumb they were convinced Joe Biden has dementia by a guy who can’t even pronounce Yosemite correctly.

[CayceG]

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Once other thing... Trump supporters didn't just choose him over Hillary and the Democrats. They chose him over FIFTEEN other Republicans. People constantly leave that part out. Fifteen other Republicans who were more qualified than him and who shared a lot of his views (without being so crass about it) were rejected in favor of this moron for the simple fact that they didn't go far enough. I thought the fallacy of the Trump supporter being motivated by economic anxiety was discounted years ago. Folks are still using this bullshit excuse, huh?

 

I hope my posts aren't coming off as financial motivations are the only reason people don't vote Democrat or voted for Trump. I'm focusing a lot on that because that's a pitch that can be made to some people that's worth making. It's where there IS some common ground. 

 

 

But like I said in a previous post, once a candidate taps in to that racist center that's definitely a motivator for a lot of people. And it's something Dems shouldn't go after. 

[skillzdadirecta]

5 minutes ago, CayceG said:

 

I hope my posts aren't coming off as financial motivations are the only reason people don't vote Democrat or voted for Trump. I'm focusing a lot on that because that's a pitch that can be made to some people that's worth making. It's where there IS some common ground. 

 

 

But like I said in a previous post, once a candidate taps in to that racist center that's definitely a motivator for a lot of people. And it's something Dems shouldn't go after. 

 I wasn't commenting on YOUR posts specifically... I wasn't aware that's the point you're making.  Like I said, the economic common ground that poor whites have with minorities will ALWAYS be overshadowed by racial and cultural concerns. This has been proven time and time again. The economic pitch HAS been made and it is routinely rejected because poor whites have been told that if others benefit from policies and programs that will benefit THEM as well, it's taking AWAY from them. 

 

Trump hasn't pitched ANY program or policy that will affect his voters' specific concerns besides cutting taxes for the rich and starting a trade war with China that FUCKED farmers and other industries in this country big time. His appeal isn't his policies. It's what he represents. We are living through the last vestiges of the old power dynamic in this country and they are not going without a fight.

[SuperSpreader]

As a minority I feel no sympathy or empathy for the people who have assumed I'm naturally stupid my whole life. Demonize these motherfuckers. 

 

 

[Kal-El814]

13 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

I'm going sound like a broken record, but I don't care.

 

I am all-but-convinced that the GOP will produce a candidate in the future that will drop the racism, venture into heavily Latin-American and African-American areas and actually pay attention to their material needs in a way that no Republican has since...ever, and because those communities are still VERY MUCH socially-conservative, will demolish whatever milquetoast centrist the Democrats trot out.

 

I honestly don’t know that this is at all likely to happen in the near future, as the GOP seems completely content to scorch the earth in the interest of tax breaks and deregulation. I agree that if a GOP candidate could get everyone healthcare, they’d run the executive for the foreseeable future, I just don’t know that they have this in them.

[CayceG]

13 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 I wasn't commenting on YOUR posts specifically... I wasn't aware that's the point you're making.  Like I said, the economic common ground that poor whites have with minorities will ALWAYS be overshadowed by racial and cultural concerns. This has been proven time and time again. The economic pitch HAS been made and it is routinely rejected because poor whites have been told that if others benefit from policies and programs that will benefit THEM as well, it's taking AWAY from them. 

 

Trump hasn't pitched ANY program or policy that will affect his voters' specific concerns besides cutting taxes for the rich and starting a trade war with China that FUCKED farmers and other industries in this country big time. His appeal isn't his policies. It's what he represents. We are living through the last vestiges of the old power dynamic in this country and they are not going without a fight.

 

You're 100% right. 

 

I guess there's a lot going on in this thread that I'm trying to talk around. 

One, there's the aspect of Trump supporters doing so out of racism. 

Two, there's the failure of Democrats to propose highly effective policies, regardless of if they're going to reach these voters.

Three, there's the inherent worth I believe all people have, even if they see other people as worth less, and the response leaning in to the shunning of the Trump voters. 

 

 

Overall, this conversation has made me think a lot.

 

 

I don't know quite how to distill it yet. Democratic policies should go farther and be more blanketed to reach more people more effectively. Some form of 'compassionate social policies' messaging is better for the country as a whole materially, and should be for that alone--not for the purposes of getting votes. People vote for the country they want and support candidates that represent the country they want. Which means some people want Fascism and racism to be the framework for the country. That's poisonous. 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

2 hours ago, MarSolo said:

Trump supporters are so dumb they were convinced Joe Biden has dementia by a guy who can’t even pronounce Yosemite correctly.

...and can’t even get through a sentence coherently where he accuses Biden of having dementia. 

[Guest]

My hunch from my years of studying how people make decisions is that demonization doesn’t do anything to positively impact behavior, so it’s a poor strategy to employ if you actually want people to make better decisions.

 

But it makes people feel better and is far easier than walking the long journey of change with a person.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

As a caucasian heterosexual man, I simply don't consider myself to be in any position to tell anyone from a "marginalized group" how they should feel about Trump supporters as I will NEVER have their "lived experiences" in this society. 

 

That's a debate to be conducted within their communities without outside interference from mine.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

As a caucasian heterosexual man, I simply don't consider myself to be in any position to tell anyone from a "marginalized group" how they should feel about Trump supporters.  That's a debate to be conducted within their communities without outside interference from mine.

Let’s be honest, it’s mostly honkeys here doing the demonizing  

[Keyser_Soze]

7 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

As a caucasian heterosexual man, I simply don't consider myself to be in any position to tell anyone from a "marginalized group" how they should feel about Trump supporters as I will NEVER have their "lived experiences" in this society. 

 

That's a debate to be conducted within their communities without outside interference from mine.

 

Don't say the P word!

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Don't say the P word!

 

Huh?

[Keyser_Soze]

2 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

Huh?

 

Privilege

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Privilege

 

Oh yeah - that was totally implied

[Greatoneshere]

I'm Pakistani-American who was raised Muslim. I'm not religious any longer but "Trump supporters" banned as much of my religious minority as possible from even being in this country.

 

But my takes are unjustified, bad, and unhelpful.

 

Because materially I'm still voting the way that would help "Trump supporters" but apparently I have to do it with a smile on my face.

 

Nonsense.