Stop demonizing Trump supporters.

[heydude93]

9 minutes ago, Chairslinger said:

It's unfair to call all Trump voters racists.

 

 

Some are religious zealots and unrepentant misogynists, too.

 

LGBTQA rights deniers, etc.  Labeling them as one or just a few types of bigot is indeed reductive at this point.  

 

 

 

[Keyser_Soze]

 

[Bacon]

[Greatoneshere]

2 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

 

Stop demonizing Trump supporters.

[Fizzzzle]

 

[Joe]

I really liked Fizzzzle's earlier points. He tried to make a contrarian point in good faith. Not sure why his thread title is the new "nm!" Oh well, sad.

[PaladinSolo]

I'm currently attempting to explain to my dad where "30 million extra votes came from over 2016," lol. 

 

I don't know if he just gave up, or if i got through to him that turnout was up across the country and the reason both totals keep going up is that every state is still counting votes, but it just doesn't matter in 46 of them.

[Fizzzzle]

20 minutes ago, Joe said:

I really liked Fizzzzle's earlier points. He tried to make a contrarian point in good faith. Not sure why his thread title is the new "nm!" Oh well, sad.

Have I walked things back or something? I can't keep track.

 

The video I posted kind of explains what I was trying to get at. It's hard to put form to thoughts at 5am.

[Joe]

1 minute ago, Fizzzzle said:

Have I walked things back or something? I can't keep track.

 

The video I posted kind of explains what I was trying to get at. It's hard to put form to thoughts at 5am.

No no. I was just reading the first couple pages and thought it was definitely interesting. Now it's just a lot of "stop demonizing Trump supporters" thrown around sarcastically.

[cusideabelincoln]

15 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

Have I walked things back or something? I can't keep track.

 

The video I posted kind of explains what I was trying to get at. It's hard to put form to thoughts at 5am.

 

The unfortunately sad part of the video's message (to open a discussion with them to persuade them) is that in order to even have a discussion with Trump supporters in an attempt to change their minds you basically have to break down their core beliefs and build them up from the ground level.  There would need to be a re-education campaign, because these people are set in their views from the environment they were raised in--which, since we're talking about rural white people born in the 1950s-80s, would be Christianity, mixed in with boomer-anti-Cold-war-fuck-socialism notions.  It is pure tribalistic thinking.  Otherwise they are going to defend their beliefs til their death, because their beliefs are their identities.

[Mr.Vic20]

8 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

The unfortunately sad part of the video's message (to open a discussion with them to persuade them) is that in order to even have a discussion with Trump supporters in an attempt to change their minds you basically have to break down their core beliefs and build them up from the ground level.  There would need to be a re-education campaign, because these people are set in their views from the environment they were raised in--which, since we're talking about rural white people born in the 1950s-80s, would be Christianity, mixed in with boomer-anti-Cold-war-fuck-socialism notions.  It is pure tribalistic thinking.  Otherwise they are going to defend their beliefs til their death, because their beliefs are their identities.

Agreed. I've travelled America quite a bit and I've been a part of a couple Trump susceptible families by virtue of marriage and I can tell you, there is no self reflection, or understanding of hypocrisy. Peace /happiness for them is a misplaced sense of what Freedom means, power, and simplicity. They really believe the bullshit they say and feel. Have pity, but also bring armor. 

[Keyser_Soze]

18 minutes ago, Joe said:

 Now it's just a lot of "stop demonizing Trump supporters" thrown around sarcastically.

 

Or is it?

[PaladinSolo]

6 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

The unfortunately sad part of the video's message (to open a discussion with them to persuade them) is that in order to even have a discussion with Trump supporters in an attempt to change their minds you basically have to break down their core beliefs and build them up from the ground level.  There would need to be a re-education campaign, because these people are set in their views from the environment they were raised in--which, since we're talking about rural white people born in the 1950s-80s, would be Christianity, mixed in with boomer-anti-Cold-war-fuck-socialism notions.  It is pure tribalistic thinking.  Otherwise they are going to defend their beliefs til their death, because their beliefs are their identities.

I've been walking my dad through the numbers after he posted some nonsense about rally sizes and Biden couldn't possibly get more votes, just straight laying it out to him, i think i got through to him a little bit, but the problem is definitely that they flat out can't imagine this many people dislike their guy, if dems are shocked by this turn out, the GOP is beside themselves.

[Fizzzzle]

5 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

The unfortunately sad part of the video's message (to open a discussion with them to persuade them) is that in order to even have a discussion with Trump supporters in an attempt to change their minds you basically have to break down their core beliefs and build them up from the ground level.  There would need to be a re-education campaign, because these people are set in their views from the environment they were raised in--which, since we're talking about rural white people born in the 1950s-80s, would be Christianity, mixed in with boomer-anti-Cold-war-fuck-socialism notions.  It is pure tribalistic thinking.  Otherwise they are going to defend their beliefs til their death, because their beliefs are their identities.

You are correct. I was taught at an early age that socialism is bad. But the more we keep telling them they're worthless, racist, pieces of shit, the harder they dig their heals in.

 

I don't know how we do that. But there is apparently a large portion of the country, the vast majority in rural areas, who are becoming increasingly radicalized to the right. You can absolutely break down someone's core beliefs if you come at it the right way. It happened to me.

[Mr.Vic20]

1 minute ago, PaladinSolo said:

I've been walking my dad through the numbers after he posted some nonsense about rally sizes and Biden couldn't possibly get more votes, just straight laying it out to him, i think i got through to him a little bit, but the problem is definitely that they flat out can't imagine this many people dislike their guy, if dems are shocked by this turn out, the GOP is beside themselves.

I get your dad, I can't belief roughly half our country can stand to listen to Donald Trump let alone go out and vote for a man that is a near perfect specimen for all that is wrong with the socioeconomics of this nation! 

[cusideabelincoln]

31 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

You are correct. I was taught at an early age that socialism is bad. But the more we keep telling them they're worthless, racist, pieces of shit, the harder they dig their heals in.

 

I don't know how we do that. But there is apparently a large portion of the country, the vast majority in rural areas, who are becoming increasingly radicalized to the right. You can absolutely break down someone's core beliefs if you come at it the right way. It happened to me.

 

The backfire effect indeed.  

 

One thing that needs to go is fucking Fox news.  Its reach is too large.  They've somehow turned facts into biased feelings.  These feelings get ingrained into people.  They become their identity.  And then when you try to argue using the same facts you get nowhere because the facts are extremely biased now.

[Keyser_Soze]

Another thing is if all these people see and believe in is Fox news there is no other reality for them. If Fox says Trump will win 100% and then he somehow doesn't that's like shattering their world. It's just so unbelievable that they can't accept the reality of it.

[SuperSpreader]

The only way to reach them is to reinvest in education so they understand how our system of government works and understand history. 

[PaladinSolo]

2 minutes ago, SlipperySlope said:

The only way to reach them is to reinvest in education so they understand how our system of government works and understand history. 

I don't think this is the issue, the issue is that Americans are generally uninterested in participating in their government, until later in life and even then they mostly just show up to vote, by then they've forgotten everything they learned.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

So I just picked a random Trump supporter from Facebook and what I found confirmed what I said earlier: Operating under a different definition of facts.

 

 

 

 

 

I was worried, if Trump decidedly wins this election, that the riots would intensify.  However now it seems like the right is telling themselves they need to demonstrate their disapproval

 

 

Wade is right; our dissolution is immanent. 

[PaladinSolo]

7 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

So I just picked a random Trump supporter from Facebook and what I found confirmed what I said earlier: Operating under a different definition of facts.

 

 

 

 

 

I was worried, if Trump decidedly wins this election, that the riots would intensify.  However now it seems like the right is telling themselves they need to demonstrate their disapproval

 

 

Wade is right; our dissolution is immanent. 

Counter point, they're all pussies and will do nothing outside the usual right wing nut job attack.

[Uaarkson]

Just now, PaladinSolo said:

Counter point, they're all pussies and will do nothing outside the usual right wing nut job attack.

 

This is 100% true. Gun-toting conservative men are gigantic pussies.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 hour ago, Keyser_Soze said:

Another thing is if all these people see and believe in is Fox news there is no other reality for them. If Fox says Trump will win 100% and then he somehow doesn't that's like shattering their world. It's just so unbelievable that they can't accept the reality of it.

I mean this is the point of that Chris hayes tweet a few pages back, either here or in another thread: their indulgent media ecosphere doesn't allow dissent, let alone something resembling neutrality. They're high off their own supply, all gas no brakes, etc. 

 

Like I do fault the NYT and wapo for being too generous to conservatives, and in sometimes letting their media habits reach into the realm of the normal, but I'm at least still confronted with the reality of what and what these people are and what they believe. Do you think breitbart would allow an op-ed from Bloomberg calling for gun control? (Analog to the tom.cotton op-ed,)

 

Like in polling there's always the fear of polling being inaccurate. The problem is it only goes one way: the right wing, left wing, and nonpartisan media all have the same narrative that the polls will be skewed in the favor of the GOP. The right takes this to heart and wholesale ignores the polls (or makes it up wholesale) instead of thinking "what if they're not right leaning, but accurate or even biased against the democrats?"

[stepee]

it’s almost sad the true believers who like literally love him and worship him and “fight for” him because they think he is out there fighting for them.

 

when like if trump had to decide between waiting 30 seconds longer to get a cheeseburger or their lives he would choose the quicker cheeseburger.

[stepee]

It’s just really fucking hard right now to have sympathy for a group of people that vote against their own best interest just so long as it makes the lives of other people worse. 

[Greatoneshere]

2 hours ago, cusideabelincoln said:

So I just picked a random Trump supporter from Facebook and what I found confirmed what I said earlier: Operating under a different definition of facts.

 

I was worried, if Trump decidedly wins this election, that the riots would intensify.  However now it seems like the right is telling themselves they need to demonstrate their disapproval

 

Wade is right; our dissolution is immanent. 

 

Stop demonizing Trump supporters. Let's all bend over backwards to figure out why they're so stupid (Facebook, Fox News disinformation and misinformation) and keep telling ourselves the problem is systemic or institutional with them.

 

Rather than, ya know, they could just be bad people?

 

I do think, however, once Biden takes over the news cycle will re-arrange itself and Biden will try harder than Trump (of course) to stop the disinformation and misinformation campaigns.

 

I full expect Trump voters by 2022 to come out of their wacko bunkers and be like: "whoa, did you know this wasn't true? And that was just a conspiracy theory?" And I will tell them to fuck off and go back inside their homes and don't come out again.

[cusideabelincoln]

6 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Stop demonizing Trump supporters. Let's all bend over backwards to figure out why they're so stupid (Facebook, Fox News disinformation and misinformation) and keep telling ourselves the problem is systemic or institutional with them.

 

Rather than, ya know, they could just be bad people?

 

I do think, however, once Biden takes over the news cycle will re-arrange itself and Biden will try harder than Trump (of course) to stop the disinformation and misinformation campaigns.

 

I full expect Trump voters by 2022 to come out of their wacko bunkers and be like: "whoa, did you know this wasn't true? And that was just a conspiracy theory?" And I will tell them to fuck off and go back inside their homes and don't come out again.

 

Strongly disagree that 70+ million are just bad people - as I'm assuming you are saying they are inherently bad.  I will concede that a large portion can never be reached - through any kind of re-education - and thus we can consider them inherently bad people - but a large portion are not.   I'm surrounded by these people in family and work; they aren't bad people. I think we can reach a lot of these people.  Just throwing them out will most certainly not bring the reachable ones in; it will cause further strife and divide.  Mocking the shitty ones though, I have no problem with, but we should do more than that.

 

One hurdle in stopping the misinformation is going to be infiltrating the conservative Facebook groups and echo chambers.  This is something outside of Biden's control; we as local community members can affect bigger change.

[finaljedi]

6 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

Strongly disagree that 70+ million are just bad people - as I'm assuming you are saying they are inherently bad.  I will concede that a large portion can never be reached - through any kind of re-education - and thus we can consider them inherently bad people - but a large portion are not.   I'm surrounded by these people in family and work; they aren't bad people. I think we can reach a lot of these people.  Just throwing them out will most certainly not bring the reachable ones in; it will cause further strife and divide.  Mocking the shitty ones though, I have no problem with, but we should do more than that.

 

One hurdle in stopping the misinformation is going to be infiltrating the conservative Facebook groups and echo chambers.  This is something outside of Biden's control; we as local community members can affect bigger change.

 

I don't know, I know a few people who voted for Trump in 2016 who didn't in 2020.  I feel like people who voted for him this year did it with both eyes open for the kind of President he is and I can't think of an excuse this time around.  In 2016 he was the non-politician disrupter who said he could fix things with a different approach, and that was appealing for a lot of people, it was dumb, but I can see where it could convince people to give him a shot.  Now there's no real excuse, unless you're a single issue pro-life voter I guess.

[Greatoneshere]

17 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

Strongly disagree that 70+ million are just bad people - as I'm assuming you are saying they are inherently bad.  I will concede that a large portion can never be reached - through any kind of re-education - and thus we can consider them inherently bad people - but a large portion are not.   I'm surrounded by these people in family and work; they aren't bad people. I think we can reach a lot of these people.  Just throwing them out will most certainly not bring the reachable ones in; it will cause further strife and divide.  Mocking the shitty ones though, I have no problem with, but we should do more than that.

 

One hurdle in stopping the misinformation is going to be infiltrating the conservative Facebook groups and echo chambers.  This is something outside of Biden's control; we as local community members can affect bigger change.

 

I'm not saying they are inherently bad. Think of it like this: were all those who supported Nazis in Germany bad?

 

The answer is yes. 70 million voted. They told us their view. Why do you keep trying to prevent their own villification that they've earned? I don't care that you're surrounded by them. I'm not interested in reaching them and neither should you. Given it's impossible anyway, what a waste of energy. I haver 13 years of evidence of them being bad people. You have nothing (politically) as evidence to indicate otherwise.

 

So how am I wrong? Genuinely asking. You just sound like you want to believe your anecdotal evidence over big data. They fight us as Republicans and we keep trying to "reach" them. Maybe instead, we fight back??

 

They ARE bad. Just ask George Floyd, Breona Taylor, Kamal Jashogie, etc. Every dead Covid patient. But sure, sure, there are good people on both sides. I gave them four years. I'm throwing them out now because they earned it.

[cusideabelincoln]

12 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I'm not saying they are inherently bad. Think of it like this: were all those who supported Nazis in Germany bad?

 

The answer is yes. 70 million voted. They told us their view. Why do you keep trying to prevent their own villification that they've earned? I don't care that you're surrounded by them. I'm not interested in reaching them and neither should you. Given it's impossible anyway, what a waste of energy. I haver 13 years of evidence of them being bad people. You have nothing (politically) as evidence to indicate otherwise.

 

So how am I wrong? Genuinely asking. You just sound like you want to believe your anecdotal evidence over big data. They fight us as Republicans and we keep trying to "reach" them. Maybe instead, we fight back??

 

They ARE bad. Just ask George Floyd, Breona Taylor, Jashogie, etc. 

 

I will have to query your statement of whether or not the value proposition of trying to empathetically reach these people versus vilifying them.  Shaming them could be an effective and ironic way to reach some of them.  Demonizing the truly terrible ones I would consider a necessity to stamp evil out, and then just have to live with any collateral damage.

 

I don't want to rule out my anecdotal evidence because the big data includes so many confounding factors.  We've already brought it up, but is a single-issue voter bad?  You can clarify, but you seem to be indicating they are because of their ignorance to the issues outside of their single one, and I'm saying they may or may not be and we can flip these people like @Fizzzzle was flipped.

[Greatoneshere]

3 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

I will have to query your statement of whether or not the value proposition of trying to empathetically reach these people versus vilifying them.  Shaming them could be an effective and ironic way to reach some of them.  Demonizing the truly terrible ones I would consider a necessity to stamp evil out, and then just have to live with any collateral damage.

 

I don't want to rule out my anecdotal evidence because the big data includes so many confounding factors.  We've already brought it up, but is a single-issue voter bad?  You can clarify, but you seem to be indicating they are because of their ignorance to the issues outside of their single one, and I'm saying they may or may not be and we can flip these people like @Fizzzzle was flipped.

 

But we don't need to flip them. It's unnecessary to work so hard to reach essentially unreachable people. Yes, I truly believe if you are a single issue voter you are a bad person. I think if you ignored all the death and destruction of the Trump administration to vote for him again, you are a bad person. 

 

The big data isn't confounding, people just don't want to accept the truth. 70 million voters want to be bad people, or are so ignorant their ignorance is negligence and negligence is harm, thus making them bad people.

 

Is this equation incorrect? Some here in this thread seriously sound like they have Stockholm Syndrome. Was I the only one watching these fucks cheer at rallies and vote for Trump again 5 days ago?

[cusideabelincoln]

11 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

But we don't need to flip them. It's unnecessary to work so hard to reach essentially unreachable people. Yes, I truly believe if you are a single issue voter you are a bad person. I think if you ignored all the death and destruction of the Trump administration to vote for him again, you are a bad person. 

 

The big data isn't confounding, people just don't want to accept the truth. 70 million voters want to be bad people, or are so ignorant their ignorance is negligence and negligence is harm, thus making them bad people.

 

Is this equation incorrect? Some here in this thread seriously sound like they have Stockholm Syndrome. Was I the only one watching these fucks cheer at rallies and vote for Trump again 5 days ago?

 

I want to quench conservative ideological growth, which I think requires flipping as many as we can.  Not doing so, not putting in some work, is resigning our futures to the current state of affairs.  Now while progressive outlook growing, it's simply growing too slowly.  

 

I do not have an argument against your equation ignorance->negligence->harm->bad.  I can only argue against the initial variable, ignorance, that can be changed with some work.  But admittedly, the biggest factor for change in ignorance is time.  Time for the old, conservatives to die while we instill skepticism and critical thinking into the younger generation.

 

I, too, am dumbfounded and sickened by the actual Trump supporters.  Trump, not necessarily GOP, supporters are in love with this man.  It's fucking crazy to see people scream freedom and democracy at the top of the lungs while they treat this man like a beloved king and dictator.

[Xbob42]

The idea of having to coddle people too stupid to even vote for their own best interest as some sort of lifelong goal is exasperating even as a mental exercise, let alone as an actual struggle to be attempted. If their suffering and their death don't open their eyes, what fucking chance do I have? Counties where more people died from Covid were MORE likely to vote for Trump. How?! What in the unholy name of fuck can normal people do to make these ignoramuses see?

 

Oh sure, you might get a person here or there who's only an edge-case, but if 4 years of Trump fucking things up didn't convince you that maybe Trump was bad for the nation, then you can go fuck yourself. Trying to extend an olive branch doesn't work when the person you're extending it to lights it on fire every time.

Your dipshit family, if Biden's presidency can actually accomplish anything (I do not worship or expect greatness from politicians, even if I vote for them, only fucking idiots cheer for politicians), might see life get just a little bit better over the next few years. But it won't matter, "Biden's ruining America" will be what Fox News tells them, and they'll be off to vote for another candidate who pays them lip service and lets them rot. And it'll be on "the left" for not coddling them enough and talking to them in soothing baby talk they can understand.

[Uaarkson]

2 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

The idea of having to coddle people too stupid to even vote for their own best interest as some sort of lifelong goal is exasperating even as a mental exercise, let alone as an actual struggle to be attempted. If their suffering and their death don't open their eyes, what fucking chance do I have? Counties where more people died from Covid were MORE likely to vote for Trump. How?! What in the unholy name of fuck can normal people do to make these ignoramuses see?

 

Oh sure, you might get a person here or there who's only an edge-case, but if 4 years of Trump fucking things up didn't convince you that maybe Trump was bad for the nation, then you can go fuck yourself. Trying to extend an olive branch doesn't work when the person you're extending it to lights it on fire every time.

Your dipshit family, if Biden's presidency can actually accomplish anything (I do not worship or expect greatness from politicians, even if I vote for them, only fucking idiots cheer for politicians), might see life get just a little bit better over the next few years. But it won't matter, "Biden's ruining America" will be what Fox News tells them, and they'll be off to vote for another candidate who pays them lip service and lets them rot. And it'll be on "the left" for not coddling them enough and talking to them in soothing baby talk they can understand.

this. fuck em

[Guest]

@Greatonesherehas a standard of good that virtually nothing reaches, so anybody having a discussion with him needs to keep definitions in mind before proceeding