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Stop demonizing Trump supporters.

Fizzzzle

By Fizzzzle
in The Political Re-Education Camp

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Spawn_of_Apathy

Spawn_of_Apathy

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Fizzzzle said:

You are correct. I was taught at an early age that socialism is bad. But the more we keep telling them they're worthless, racist, pieces of shit, the harder they dig their heals in.

 

I don't know how we do that. But there is apparently a large portion of the country, the vast majority in rural areas, who are becoming increasingly radicalized to the right. You can absolutely break down someone's core beliefs if you come at it the right way. It happened to me.


I don’t think we can with many of them. So many of them, their “core” beliefs are what make up their personal identity. We’d have the same chance convincing them Christianity is a false religion and Islam is the correct one. That’s how far apart they see their political beliefs from those on the Left. Left ideas are sacrilege. 
 

Do we demonize them? Sure. But they’ve been demonizing us for just as long and I think most of us have given up they can open their mind at all. 
 

The kind of people that today believe catastrophic things happen as a result of God punishing our acceptance of LGBTQ and their “agenda”.
 

The kind of people that think you can’t be a good person, a moral person if you don’t believe if God, specifically the Christian God. This, this right here, this IMMEDIATELY disqualifies any attempt I make to educate them, because I am automatically on the immoral side of any issue if have differing views. 
 

And they don’t want change. Change is scary, which makes. They demonize it so it is easier to hate. They’re not a bigot for hating this social change, the social change itself is evil. They’re just staying in the side of good. And it’s not just about race and sex. They don’t just want jobs. They want THEIR jobs. The jobs they already know how to do. They don’t want to learn new jobs. The people saying they’ll bring back their old jobs are good, righteous people. The people saying they will bring new jobs are evil, immoral people. 
 

If Republicans and conservative media got on the same page, and said Republicans were working on a new corporate tax structure which would increase corporate taxes, but also allow some of the revenue from that extra money to be used as incentives to put labor jobs in more rural areas, these people would cheer it. But if Democrats said they wanted to do it, and Republicans and conservative media opposed it, the argument would not be whether this would benefit all these struggling people. It would be whether the corporate tax is moral or not. The tax would be seen as immoral, and then anyone that supports it would be immoral and evil. 
 

There is serious brainwashing here. As others have said, it is cult like. You don’t break that down by just having a conversation with them. Or several conversations. Haha, you know how they break people free of a cult? They remove them from it. Prevent them from having any contact with the cult or its members. To break down these beliefs of these rural Trump supporters we’d have to dismantle all conservative media, and never allow an elected Republican to have a voice. We’d have to become fascist ourselves. We’d have to become the very thing we hate.
 

Because facts are not enough when their political and social beliefs are intertwined so much with their religious beliefs. For these people it is an “us vs them”. If the evil Democrats win, then the good and righteous Republicans (them included) lose. This is how you get Trump, and his number of voters in 2020. Because all can be forgivable if done for good and in the side of God. As long as the righteous win. 
 

For progressive agendas, to move society and our civilization forward, there is no path to victory with these people. We have to go around them. We can’t change their minds as a whole, and we don’t have time to do it individually. Though 100% free college would make it easier to sway future generations. But we can’t win that “moral” initiative either. 

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Greatoneshere

Greatoneshere

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

I want to quench conservative ideological growth, which I think requires flipping as many as we can.  Not doing so, not putting in some work, is resigning our futures to the current state of affairs.  Now while progressive outlook growing, it's simply growing too slowly.  

 

I do not have an argument against your equation ignorance->negligence->harm->bad.  I can only argue against the initial variable, ignorance, that can be changed with some work.  But admittedly, the biggest factor for change in ignorance is time.  Time for the old, conservatives to die while we instill skepticism and critical thinking into the younger generation.

 

I, too, am dumbfounded and sickened by the actual Trump supporters.  Trump, not necessarily GOP, supporters are in love with this man.  It's fucking crazy to see people scream freedom and democracy at the top of the lungs while they treat this man like a beloved king and dictator.

 

I want what you want, you just have faith it's possible whereas I do not. I think we just simply do the progressive policies without them on our side and once they see how helpful those policies are, they'll change their minds. The only time they even somewhat change their minds is when it personally affects them, right? So - let's personally affect them with effective policies. But they'll never sign on to those policies beforehand. We have to force it.

 

I appreciate your candor! I don't see anything wrong with the equation either - you're right the initial variable is adjustable. However, the issue here is Trump supporters want to be ignorant. They don't like introspection or self-awareness or reflecting on themselves. There are some people who want to be willfully ignorant. It's not adjustable in such a case, is it?

 

You, like me, are dumbfounded. We can't explain them. We don't understand them. Yet we keep giving them rope, or trying to. Doesn't that sound crazy to you? :p 

 

7 hours ago, sblfilms said:

@Greatonesherehas a standard of good that virtually nothing reaches, so anybody having a discussion with him needs to keep definitions in mind before proceeding :p 

 

You are absolutely right - even in real life this applies. The difference, however, and I say this all the time in real life, is I'm not expecting people to measure up to my standard (a standard, by the way, I hold myself to). I want, like, even 10% of my standard, and I'm not even getting that low bar. That's how bad the situation is, to me. :) 

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BloodyHell

BloodyHell

Posted
Posted
On 11/2/2020 at 8:06 AM, TheLeon said:

I understand why pissed off, forgotten people in flyover country voted for him the first time. The people still on board? I can’t take them seriously.

Probably because dems gave them nothing beyond “green new deal” and a “president for all Americans”. They pretty much ignored his supporters and ran on “im not him”.

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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Joe said:

Reading this thread it's not hard to see why Dems got slaughtered down ballot.

 

I'm not sure why they believe there is no way to have substantive disagreements with people without intentionally attacking them to their very core. How does it actually help move the needle on policy? We don't have a system where you even need to persuade the other half, you only need to persuade like 5% of voters and you can win in ways which allow your policy preferences to be made reality.

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Greatoneshere

Greatoneshere

Posted
Posted
Just now, sblfilms said:

 

I'm not sure why they believe there is no way to have substantive disagreements with people without intentionally attacking them to their very core. How does it actually help move the needle on policy?

 

Again, we don't need them. Why do people keep saying that? Progressive policy positions will automatically sway the 5% you're saying we need. AOC indicated that all progressive seats were kept, it was centrist and moderate Dem seats that lost.

 

Populism works. Progressive populism will work. 

 

And why do I believe there's no way? Because 20 years of evidence man. Where have you been during Bush and now Trump? They deserve the derision, and I'm out of magnanimity.

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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted
Just now, Greatoneshere said:

Again, we don't need them. Why do people keep saying that?

 

That is literally the point made explicitly clear in the very next sentence :lol:

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Greatoneshere

Greatoneshere

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

 

That is literally the point made explicitly clear in the very next sentence :lol:

 

I don't know what you mean? I addressed the 5% thing - that doesn't mean we need them in the sense we have to "talk to them" or stop demonizing them. We can demonize them and still get the 5%, is what I'm saying.

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Greatoneshere

Greatoneshere

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Joe said:

Donald Trump got 70 million votes. We don't need them, he says, What a joke.

 

I swear you guys are acting dense. We don't need them in the sense we need to talk to them or enlighten them or anything. We should just do the best we can with policy implementation and it'll gradually shift of its own accord. The Overton window will also shift. 

 

Obviously, 70 million people voted for Trump. Doesn't mean we need to stop demonizing them or anything., That's what I mean by need.

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Joe

Joe

Posted
Posted
Just now, Greatoneshere said:

 

I swear you guys are acting dense. We don't need them in the sense we need to talk to them or enlighten them or anything. We should just do the best we can and it'll gradually shift of its own accord. The Overton window will also shift. 

 

Obviously, 70 million people voted for Trump. Doesn't mean we need to stop demonizing them or anything., That's what I mean by need.

 

What does demonizing them accomplish? 

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Greatoneshere

Greatoneshere

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

What does demonizing them accomplish? 

 

Nothing, other than treating them according to what the facts and evidence indicate. What did demonizing Hitler do by itself? Nothing. It helped rally people against Hitler though, so there's that. It's just the correct reaction to a group of people. In this case, Trump supporters.

 

What does not demonizing them accomplish? At least demonizing them is factually accurate. I keep seeing people tell me to stop demonizing them despite the facts, but I never hear what would it take for you to start demonizing them? Like what would it take? Not Charloteville I guess. Not the right wing mass shootings. Not the Covid deaths Trump supporters all for. On and on and on the list goes back to Bush and Reagan.

 

What would it take for you to start demonizing them? Is it even possible for you? Because if you have no redline, that's more concerning to me than my demonization of them.

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Joe

Joe

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Posted

Also, what AOC said, much as I love her, is meaningless. If progressive Dems beat out establishment Dems in very blue areas, that's awesome! But of course those Dems were never going to be in danger of losing their seats in the general. Now if someone has data that shows progressive Dems beating out establishment Dems and winning the general in purple districts then that obviously changes things. But I'm fairly certain that did not happen.

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Joe

Joe

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Joe said:

Also, what AOC said, much as I love her, is meaningless. If progressive Dems beat out establishment Dems in very blue areas, that's awesome! But of course those Dems were never going to be in danger of losing their seats in the general. Now if someone has data that shows progressive Dems beating out establishment Dems and winning the general in purple districts then that obviously changes things. But I'm fairly certain that did not happen.

 

In other words, it seems like the blue areas got bluer (good!), but the purple areas got redder (bad!).

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Joe

Joe

Posted
Posted
40 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

I wanna read the thread on a very “conservative” leaning forum where a member created a topic asking Republicans to stop demonizing Clinton/Obama/Biden supporters. I’m sure it would be interesting. 

 

That's why we're better, right?

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Jason

Jason

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Posted
13 minutes ago, 5timechamp said:

I wonder if Trump self pardoning himself would finally raise a flag within his cult? Im sure the networks would gladly lay out all his crimes... but would FOX? since theyre the only ones that speak “truth”

 

The cult is into shit like OAN now.

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Massdriver

Massdriver

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Joe said:

Also, what AOC said, much as I love her, is meaningless. If progressive Dems beat out establishment Dems in very blue areas, that's awesome! But of course those Dems were never going to be in danger of losing their seats in the general. Now if someone has data that shows progressive Dems beating out establishment Dems and winning the general in purple districts then that obviously changes things. But I'm fairly certain that did not happen.

Thank you. I wasn’t going to bother, but this. AOC has a lot more work to do to show her point means anything. When AOC says something, a lot of people accept her claim without justification.

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b_m_b_m_b_m

b_m_b_m_b_m

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Again, we don't need them. Why do people keep saying that? Progressive policy positions will automatically sway the 5% you're saying we need. AOC indicated that all progressive seats were kept, it was centrist and moderate Dem seats that lost.

 

Populism works. Progressive populism will work. 

 

And why do I believe there's no way? Because 20 years of evidence man. Where have you been during Bush and now Trump? They deserve the derision, and I'm out of magnanimity.

This isn't what aoc said

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b_m_b_m_b_m

b_m_b_m_b_m

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

Stop demonizing Trump supporters!

Like literally her point was that before moderate blame progressive or left policy positions and statements, look at your own campaigns and ask if you did everything you could to win before blaming the left. The example of a moderate rep from a moderate district spending only like $2000 on facebook in the weeks before the election. Even though they (conor lamb) won, what about the other reps who didn't? What is so ineffective about the DCCC online media system? Maybe they should ask groups that beat them in primaries for help winning general elections instead of banning vendors who go against incumbents? Why not bring them into the fold instead of push them away? 

 

She very much didn't say "go left or perish"

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Joe

Joe

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Like literally her point was that before moderate blame progressive or left policy positions and statements, look at your own campaigns and ask if you did everything you could to win before blaming the left. The example of a moderate rep from a moderate district spending only like $2000 on facebook in the weeks before the election. Even though they (conor lamb) won, what about the other reps who didn't? What is so ineffective about the DCCC online media system? Maybe they should ask groups that beat them in primaries for help winning general elections instead of banning vendors who go against incumbents? Why not bring them into the fold instead of push them away? 

 

She very much didn't say "go left or perish"

 

Oh I agree. Her statement was more nuanced than GOH made it out to be. I just though the particular point of progressives holding their seats wasn't meaningful on its own.

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