Books It looks like 'A Song of Ice and Fire' will never be finished at this point

[Fizzzzle]

George R.R. Martin made a blog update a couple weeks ago that more-or-less says as much, to me, even though he says multiple times that he's "still working on it."

 

It's not surprising, and I kind of gave up hope a long time ago, but the coffin is shut at this point. It's been 11 years since Dance with Dragons came out (it came out less than a month after season 1 of the show ended) and at this point he just doesn't seem to care anymore. Even 'Dance' was just 'A Feast for Crows' that was re-edited to be two books, and 'Feast' came out in 2005. So in reality, over 22 years (since 'Storm of Swords' came out), he's written one book split into two parts.

 

That's not to say he doesn't want to write anymore. He actually cranked out 'Fire & Blood' pretty fast, all things considered, and even that was an offshoot of 'A World of Ice and Fire.' And, according to him, he is pretty heavily involved in the new TV shows. Yes, plural. There's 'House of the Dragon,' which is in post-production, and also why he's so gung-ho about finishing Fire & Blood part 2, which has clearly taken precedence over anything else he's doing. There's also apparently a new Dunk & Egg series in the works, which is why he also suddenly is interested in finishing those books (he hasn't written one of those since 2010). Then there's also apparently a series about Princess Nymeria and an animated series about Yi Ti?

 

The point is, he seems to now be focused on the world building and the TV shows, which is what he actually likes doing. He seems to pretty clearly not give a shit about finishing ASOIAF anymore. Whether that's because he wrote himself into a corner and doesn't know how to get out, or whether he's afraid of the fan backlash because the HBO series actually was pretty accurate to how he wanted to end it (even though most fans will agree, it wasn't the *what* happened, it was the *how*), or whether he's simply just bored with it, who can say?

 

A number of years ago he talked about world building and mentioned how Tolkien's life's work wasn't Lord of the Rings, his life's work was the Silmarillion. He just wants to make his own Silmarillion, clearly. The thing is, NO ONE WOULD GIVE TWO SALTY FUCKS ABOUT THE SILMARILLION IF TOLKIEN NEVER FINISHED LORD OF THE RINGS. Fantasy worlds are just puke on paper if there's no human-character interaction to tie to it. If we never get an ending to A Song of Ice and Fire, no one gives a shit about Princess Nymeria leading her people from the Rhoyne or whatever.

 

It just sucks that a series that was such an integral part of my teen years/early 20's is just never going to amount to anything beyond some (probably) shitty TV shows.

 

/rant

[Ricofoley]

Between more Fire and Blood and more Dunk and Egg, absolutely give me more Dunk and Egg. I've read both of those within the last year or two, and I found Dunk and Egg to a lot of fun and Fire and Blood to be an absolute a slog to get through. I think whatever sense of immersion you get from the fact that it's written like an actual in-world maester's history doesn't make up for how dry the writing tends to be, and the fact that it doesn't have the forward momentum in the narrative that a regular novel would have.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

GRRM should just suck it up, hand over whatever he's written and his notes to Brandon Sanderson, and be done with it.

[Fizzzzle]

7 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

GRRM should just suck it up, hand over whatever he's written and his notes to Brandon Sanderson, and be done with it.

Shit, Stephen King has said publicly that he'd finish it. I mean, I'd rather Sanderson, but I'll just take anything at this point.

[Jason]

this was a lot of words to say ur mad

[Fizzzzle]

34 minutes ago, Jason said:

this was a lot of words to say ur mad

You're not wrong

[Brian]

I will never invest my time and money in anything Martin does going forward. Same goes for Patrick Rothfuss. They are the main reasons I am over fantasy books outside of Sanderson. 

[EternallDarkness]

1 minute ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

 Same goes for Patrick Rothfuss. 

 

big time...where the hell is the 3rd book

[Greatoneshere]

I am with you - ASOIAF is to me what Harry Potter was to others in the 90's and 00's; a series I obsessed over. And unlike most, I like books 4 and 5. I have waited and waited and his seeming distaste for his original fanbase is galling. I don't give a shit about any world building until you finish the great story you've started, if you end it well, I'll then be invested in the world building.

 

Patrick Rothfuss is similarly frustrating. I think they need to do the work.

[Keyser_Soze]

He put all his energy into making Elden Ring a perfect game.

[CitizenVectron]

15 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

GRRM should just suck it up, hand over whatever he's written and his notes to Brandon Sanderson, and be done with it.

 

We'll get The Winds of Winter in Spring 2023 and A Dream of Spring in 2024, and then three novellas that expand on side characters in between.

[Bloodporne]

14 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said:

He put all his energy into making Elden Ring a perfect game.

I swear, having played for like 100 hours by now, GRRM wrote "Uh...Erdtree?" on a napkin and sent a pic of it to From. 

[Keyser_Soze]

34 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

I swear, having played for like 100 hours by now, GRRM wrote "Uh...Erdtree?" on a napkin and sent a pic of it to From. 

 

[GeneticBlueprint]

On 3/20/2022 at 5:07 PM, Ricofoley said:

Between more Fire and Blood and more Dunk and Egg, absolutely give me more Dunk and Egg. I've read both of those within the last year or two, and I found Dunk and Egg to a lot of fun and Fire and Blood to be an absolute a slog to get through. I think whatever sense of immersion you get from the fact that it's written like an actual in-world maester's history doesn't make up for how dry the writing tends to be, and the fact that it doesn't have the forward momentum in the narrative that a regular novel would have.

 

Fire and Blood is the Old Testament of Westeros. Some fun violence and adult themes here and there interspersed with lots of "and Xerys begat Yerys and Yerys begat Zerys".

[Ricofoley]

That's a perfect way to put it, yeah.

[Chairslinger]

On 3/20/2022 at 7:11 PM, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

GRRM should just suck it up, hand over whatever he's written and his notes to Brandon Sanderson, and be done with it.

 

On 3/20/2022 at 7:19 PM, Fizzzzle said:

Shit, Stephen King has said publicly that he'd finish it. I mean, I'd rather Sanderson, but I'll just take anything at this point.

 

 

Having followed all three series and 4 authors for a while now it's really interesting to compare and contrast.

 

For instance, if you time traveled to the week in '99 when King had just been nearly fatally run over imagine having someone guess who would be the one to live to '22....but also be the only one who hadn't finished their series

 

Also, King is kind of a cautionary tale on both ends of the spectrum. On one hand, it should show any author the danger of putting off work on their magnum opus. Especially a not particularly healthy looking 73 year old like Martin. On the other hand, if you had told King back in 2003 that he would still be publishing at a decent clip in 2022 I suspect he might have slowed down and given the Dark Tower a little more time and it probably would have turned out better for it. Not that the Dark Tower is terrible, but you can feel the rushing and I think some things would have clicked into place more naturally if King had let the story come to him rather than the other way around.

[SuperSpreader]

haha eat shit nerds who spoiled the show 

[BloodyHell]

On 3/20/2022 at 5:21 PM, Fizzzzle said:

George R.R. Martin made a blog update a couple weeks ago that more-or-less says as much, to me, even though he says multiple times that he's "still working on it."

 

It's not surprising, and I kind of gave up hope a long time ago, but the coffin is shut at this point. It's been 11 years since Dance with Dragons came out (it came out less than a month after season 1 of the show ended) and at this point he just doesn't seem to care anymore. Even 'Dance' was just 'A Feast for Crows' that was re-edited to be two books, and 'Feast' came out in 2005. So in reality, over 22 years (since 'Storm of Swords' came out), he's written one book split into two parts.

 

That's not to say he doesn't want to write anymore. He actually cranked out 'Fire & Blood' pretty fast, all things considered, and even that was an offshoot of 'A World of Ice and Fire.' And, according to him, he is pretty heavily involved in the new TV shows. Yes, plural. There's 'House of the Dragon,' which is in post-production, and also why he's so gung-ho about finishing Fire & Blood part 2, which has clearly taken precedence over anything else he's doing. There's also apparently a new Dunk & Egg series in the works, which is why he also suddenly is interested in finishing those books (he hasn't written one of those since 2010). Then there's also apparently a series about Princess Nymeria and an animated series about Yi Ti?

 

The point is, he seems to now be focused on the world building and the TV shows, which is what he actually likes doing. He seems to pretty clearly not give a shit about finishing ASOIAF anymore. Whether that's because he wrote himself into a corner and doesn't know how to get out, or whether he's afraid of the fan backlash because the HBO series actually was pretty accurate to how he wanted to end it (even though most fans will agree, it wasn't the *what* happened, it was the *how*), or whether he's simply just bored with it, who can say?

 

A number of years ago he talked about world building and mentioned how Tolkien's life's work wasn't Lord of the Rings, his life's work was the Silmarillion. He just wants to make his own Silmarillion, clearly. The thing is, NO ONE WOULD GIVE TWO SALTY FUCKS ABOUT THE SILMARILLION IF TOLKIEN NEVER FINISHED LORD OF THE RINGS. Fantasy worlds are just puke on paper if there's no human-character interaction to tie to it. If we never get an ending to A Song of Ice and Fire, no one gives a shit about Princess Nymeria leading her people from the Rhoyne or whatever.

 

It just sucks that a series that was such an integral part of my teen years/early 20's is just never going to amount to anything beyond some (probably) shitty TV shows.

 

/rant

Meh. I find it hard to care. The last three seasons of the show were bad, and books 4 and 5 were a complete slog to read. His world building is great, but the story is meh, imo. Theres few series I care less about if they get finished or not. But I do understand if you're a big fan. Robert Jordan's death created a similar feeling for me. Also, waiting for Doors of Stone sucks.

[Anathema-]

I'm convinced he's chickened out of the story he was writing based on the fan reaction. He couldn't take a character he wrote that people loved and give her the heel turn, especially after he saw how the fans responded. 

[Dre801]

If the final two books come, great, I'll pick them up and read them,  but I'm done anticipating them.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, Anathema- said:

I'm convinced he's chickened out of the story he was writing based on the fan reaction. He couldn't take a character he wrote that people loved and give her the heel turn, especially after he saw how the fans responded. 

 

Maybe, but it's been much better laid out in the books, the problem was the show did it suddenly. I always presumed that was what was going to happen to that character.

 

If he's chickened out, that's lame. The book has a number of characters that complicate the plot in the books that the show never portrays, he should do his follow through because clearly it will work better and more intricately in the books than the dumb and straightforward way it happened in the show.

[Iculus]

check out "The Death Gate Cycle" it's  super YA, but I love it.

[BloodyHell]

40 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Maybe, but it's been much better laid out in the books, the problem was the show did it suddenly. I always presumed that was what was going to happen to that character.

 

If he's chickened out, that's lame. The book has a number of characters that complicate the plot in the books that the show never portrays, he should do his follow through because clearly it will work better and more intricately in the books than the dumb and straightforward way it happened in the show.

Even in the show, there were clearly signs she was a Tyrant all along. I think you have to be willfully blind to her actions throughout not to see the heel turn coming. Especially young people who didn't understand that this was never, ever going to end with eternal love. They got super invested in a love story that was never going to survive the main story.

Well, except for Jaime and Cersei anyway. They got ASoIaF version of eternal love.

[Greatoneshere]

50 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

Even in the show, there were clearly signs she was a Tyrant all along. I think you have to be willfully blind to her actions throughout not to see the heel turn coming. Especially young people who didn't understand that this was never, ever going to end with eternal love. They got super invested in a love story that was never going to survive the main story.

Well, except for Jaime and Cersei anyway. They got ASoIaF version of eternal love.

 

People are stupid. People named their children after the character. They had no idea. I agree even the show laid down some groundwork.

[BloodyHell]

The Khaleesi name is so dumb. Everyone who named their kids that got what they deserved 😜 

[Fizzzzle]

I was thinking "danys gonna go crazy" as soon as I finished Dance with Dragons. There are a lot of parallels between her and Cersei if you pay attention. The heel turn of Daenerys in the show did not bother me, it was just the rushed way it was done.

[DPCyric]

On 3/20/2022 at 7:11 PM, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

GRRM should just suck it up, hand over whatever he's written and his notes to Brandon Sanderson, and be done with it.

 

As mad as Sanderson is he probably already wrote the book 

[MarSolo]

On 3/26/2022 at 10:38 PM, Greatoneshere said:

 

People are stupid. People named their children after the character. They had no idea. I agree even the show laid down some groundwork.

A host on one of wrestling podcast I listen to said he finally watched the show in the lead up to the final season after his coworkers convinced him to watch it, and he remembers his coworkers being shocked when he suggested Dany being the real big bad.

[thewhyteboar]

On 3/27/2022 at 12:05 PM, Fizzzzle said:

I was thinking "danys gonna go crazy" as soon as I finished Dance with Dragons. There are a lot of parallels between her and Cersei if you pay attention. The heel turn of Daenerys in the show did not bother me, it was just the rushed way it was done.

Yeah, I have problem where her story ended up, the problem was that the show took her character from point A to B to C straight to Z. She was always gonna end up there, but Jesus. If the showrunners really wanted to bail and do other things, HBO should have thanked them for their service and handed the reins to someone else instead.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

"Woman With Power Gone Crazy" is such an unoriginal, shitty trope that if that's where the story is eventually going to end up, then I really don't give a damn about the "how" and the "why" that gets her there and would gladly see the story remain unfinished.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

"Woman With Power Gone Crazy" is such an unoriginal, shitty trope that if that's where the story is eventually going to end up, then I really don't give a damn about the "how" and the "why" that gets her there and would gladly see the story remain unfinished.

Exactly... even though in retrospect, some of the signs and clues are there that that is where he was going with her, I gave GRRM more credit and thought that he would subvert that trope. Sadly it appears that's not the case. Let it die. GRRM has written himself into a corner and seems to kind of hope that everyone will forget about the whole thing at some point.

[Kal-El814]

2 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

"Woman With Power Gone Crazy" is such an unoriginal, shitty trope that if that's where the story is eventually going to end up, then I really don't give a damn about the "how" and the "why" that gets her there and would gladly see the story remain unfinished.

 

It’s especially so since they establish early on that some Targs just go bonkers.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

5 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

It’s especially so since they establish early on that some Targs just go bonkers.

 

Oh yeah - there's ANOTHER lousy one that we can add: "Your Lineage/Bloodline/etc. Determines Your Destiny".

[Kal-El814]

28 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

Oh yeah - there's ANOTHER lousy one that we can add: "Your Lineage/Bloodline/etc. Determines Your Destiny".

 

Yeah.

 

This is one of the strangest situations I can think of when it comes to literary reputation.

 

ASOIAF really did have a reputation as a generally well written, beloved story that subverted a lot of genre expectations. Then the show happened, beat the books to the finish line, and poisoned the well so dramatically that it's affecting the reception of the original source material to a pretty great degree. Now if / when he finishes, the "real" ending is always going to be compared to the worlds most extravagantly funded and popular fan fiction. It's wild.

[Jason]

1 hour ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

It’s especially so since they establish early on that some Targs just go bonkers.

 

Targs?

 

Targ | Memory Alpha | Fandom

MEMORY-ALPHA.FANDOM.COM

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The targ was a herding animal native to Qo'noS. Targs were comparable in form to Terran boars but with spikes on their backs. They were usually dark brown, although some were spotted. Targs were generally regarded as "vicious and destructive" animals. Klingons kept domesticated targs as pets and livestock, and hunted wild targs for sport. The meat of the targ – including the heart – was eaten, while their shoulder...