Television Game of Thrones - Season 8 - Starting April 14th

[GeneticBlueprint]

21 minutes ago, Chris- said:

There's a lot to be said about how this season has played out, but I have to question what show you've been watching the last eight years if you honestly think Dany's madness was a quick pivot. 

 

 

I mean it's not like she didn't burn people who wouldn't kneel, publicly crucify enemies, or feed people she had no proof were guilty to her dragons.

[Chris-]

2 minutes ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

 

I mean it's not like she didn't burn people who wouldn't kneel, publicly crucify enemies, or feed people she had no proof were guilty to her dragons.

 

And burning down an entire building full of people, and coldly watching her brother be brutally murdered right in front of her, and locking people in a vault to slowly starve to death.

[Kal-El814]

28 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

At least in the books they are already starting to hint at Dany's madness...the show just totally ignored that for the last 4 seasons in order to give us this "twist." D&D are a bunch of buffoons.

Dany has behaving like she’s capable of this since season 1. The last season might be rushed but saying this has been ignored for 4 seasons in favor of a twist is just straight wrong. 

[Massdriver]

8 hours ago, fuckle85 said:

 

Nah it was a fitting end tbh.  He lost the plot when he raped Cersei (I mean fuck Cersei, but rape is rape) and definitely reached a new low when he sacked The Riverlands and killed Olenna Tyrell.  Incest, he pushed an innocent boy out of a window and crippled him, conspired against Winterfell and bares some responsible for the death of Ned Stark, murdered a person for no reason, committed rape, killed people in the Riverlands including the true bad bitch queen of the whole series, and probably a few other things I'm forgetting.  He had his moments, but he was not a good person lol.  Going back to Cersei was fitting enough, and the real character assassination moment imo was the scene in tonights episode of him admitting to not caring about anyone - not even the innocent lives he saved by slaying the king.  It's an attempt to contextualize him as someone who only ever did any honorable things because of his loyalty to Cersei and makes absolutely no sense and is contradicted several times throughout the show, even in this very season. 

No, he's not a good person, but he was seemingly a better person than he was, or that's what the show was until the last 2 episodes.  All of the character building was effectively erased since Jaime didn't grow at all from the very first episode where he pushed Bran out the window. They should have just had him die up north during the long night. That would have been far more satisfying than him dying with his sister. 

8 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

He didn't kill the mad king to "save innocents"... he killed the Mad King to save his father because the mad king had JUST told him to bring him his father's head. Jaimie has CONSISTENTLY stated he didn't give a fuck about innocent people. His only concerns were his family really and Cersei was number one in that.

 

That's selective hearing there. He mentioned his father and all of the innocent people. Jaime told Brienne he killed the pyromancer first before killing the king. Jaime also did seem concerned with other people during the show, especially towards the end where he wanted to avoid losing life in sieges. He seemed concerned with his own narrative when he opened the white book. He seemed concern with the well being of the entire realm when he road north to fight. 

[RedSoxFan9]

Dany’s advisors had previously talked her out of going mad queen, but now with Tyrion being unreliable, she basically has no advisors.

 

also, the writers should have had drogon attack the scorpions at night because then there would be a reason why the scorpions went from extremely accurate to useless

[Massdriver]

11 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

Dany has behaving like she’s capable of this since season 1. The last season might be rushed but saying this has been ignored for 4 seasons in favor of a twist is just straight wrong. 

Up until last night, most of that could have been brushed aside and one could have even argued it was for a purpose. At a minimum, she was taking care of her enemies to deter future enemies. Last night was different since her enemies were done, yet she chose to kill thousands of innocents anyway. This was definitely the path she was on, but it also certainly wasn't paced properly since they had to squeeze so much in so fast.

 

Edit: It would have helped if she had some sort of evil adviser telling her to give in to her hate and anger.

[Amazatron]

I’m fine with Dany’s descent into madness, but it was just handled extremely bizarrely in the show.  She had just single handedly won the “battle” for King’s Landing through Drogon activating God Mode and systematically taking out the Iron Fleet and all the Scorpions (don’t get me started on this...), and the Golden Company (LOLOL).  There is no more threat to her in the entire city.  Then as she’s just chilling on a wall, the surrender bells go off and everything is won, but no, this is the moment her bloodlust kicks in.

[skillzdadirecta]

6 hours ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

Arya still got those green eyes to shut, so my money is on her. 

 

I just don't want her to die doing it  

 

Targareyans have purple eyes though.

[TheLeon]

14 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

Edit: It would have helped if she had some sort of evil adviser telling her to give in to her hate and anger.

Missandei’s last words basically told her to burn ‘em all. I guess this episode proved that she was Dany’s most trusted advisor after all. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, Massdriver said:

That's selective hearing there. He mentioned his father and all of the innocent people. Jaime told Brienne he killed the pyromancer first before killing the king. Jaime also did seem concerned with other people during the show, especially towards the end where he wanted to avoid losing life in sieges. He seemed concerned with his own narrative when he opened the white book. He seemed concern with the well being of the entire realm when he road north to fight. 

 

There's nothing selective about it... Jamie said in his story that the Mad King had been saying "burn them all" for HOURS and he knew what that meant. It wasn't until the Mad King told him to bring him his Father's head that he killed him. Yes he mentioned all the innocent people... because he was pissed that instead of getting credit for saving them like he thought he would, he was judged by Ned Stark and the people at large as a backstabbing oath breaker. Saving the people was secondary byproduct of saving his FATHER.

 

As far as riding North, Jaimie went because it MADE SENSE to do so. He saw the dead... he saw Danerys and her forces on the field. He NEVER thought for one second that they could win against either side, the dead or Dany's armies and he said so.  He told her that regardless of which side won in the North, that THEY would lose to the victor. Cersei didn't listen and Jamie left her. But being true to who he is and the bond that the two of them share, he went back to her and she was the ruin of him... as other characters in the show predicted.

 

Lastly, even though I was always of the mind that they wouldn't go full Targeryan Mad Queen with Dany, they set her ruthless side up back from the first season. She just always seemed to display it against people who "deserved" it. Her turn to madness didn't come out of nowhere regardless of whether we like the choice for her character or not. It was definitely set up.

 

There are definitely things that could be critiqued about the show these last couple of seasons for sure... they have not been perfect. But "Garbage"? "Worse thing I've seen on TV?" BULLSHIT. It's hard to take that kind of vitriol seriously especially when a lot of the folks making those statements back them up with weak and often poorly thought out, emotional reasons based largely on head canon or fundamental misunderstandings of what they are seeing.  Having Dany turn full mad queen feels lazy and obvious to me and I would be surprised if this is indeed what GRRM has in mind for her character. Too bad we probably won't ever find out unless he's finished the last two books and this is all a big marketing scam.

 

Anyway, a few story choices aside, I'm enjoying this season and looking forward to seeing them wrap things up. People will be pissed but like every other show, once people get to revisit the series in it's entirety, I'm certain it will hold up. One more episode to go.

[skillzdadirecta]

9 minutes ago, TheLeon said:

Missandei’s last words basically told her to burn ‘em all. I guess this episode proved that she was Dany’s most trusted advisor after all. 

Also Olena Tyrell's last words to her before she died was "Be The Dragon." They even reminded us of that in the goddamned recap. It's interesting that the men were telling her to be restrained and to hold back while the women were saying "fuck that... kill these assholes " 

 

Dario also told her that she was a conqueror... not a ruler and that he pitied the Lords of Westeros when they had to face her.

[Amazatron]

 

 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

Geez, they were offing characters like they had a checklist they were rushing to get through. 

 

Cersie’s death was unsatisfying. I was hoping for something as cool as Arya killing Jamie, taking his face, and slicing open her stomach. Cersie bleeds out looking at Jamie’s face, thinking she has been betrayed. Or Tyrion stabs her multiple times so the city can surrender. 

 

I feel so disappointed in Danny. You could see her heading towards this seasons ago, but I had hopped Tyrion might be able to keep her calm and reasoned. 

 

But then I am also disappointed in Tyrion. He seemed like such a good tactician nearer to the start of the show, but since leaving King’s Landing and joining up with Danny he’s fumbled pretty much everything. It’s like he stopped being cynical and untrusting and now he’s getting outwitted by everyone and making dumb decisions.  

[SuperSpreader]

3 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

Geez, they were offing characters like they had a checklist they were rushing to get through. 

 

Cersie’s death was unsatisfying. I was hoping for something as cool as Arya killing Jamie, taking his face, and slicing open her stomach. Cersie bleeds out looking at Jamie’s face, thinking she has been betrayed. Or Tyrion stabs her multiple times so the city can surrender. 

 

I feel so disappointed in Danny. You could see her heading towards this seasons ago, but I had hopped Tyrion might be able to keep her calm and reasoned. 

 

But then I am also disappointed in Tyrion. He seemed like such a good tactician nearer to the start of the show, but since leaving King’s Landing and joining up with Danny he’s fumbled pretty much everything. It’s like he stopped being cynical and untrusting and now he’s getting outwitted by everyone and making dumb decisions.  

Wait till they find Jaime's body and hang Tyrion for treason.

[skillzdadirecta]

4 hours ago, LazyPiranha said:

 

From where?  Even if we assume that Tyrion's plan implies that they pick up a bigger, better boat later, it still requires Jamie and Cersei the row out of the bay then past the iron fleet in broad daylight. 

From Ser Davos? What exactly do you think the favor Tyrion asked Davos was?

[Amazatron]

 

[Mercury33]

35 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

There's nothing selective about it... Jamie said in his story that the Mad King had been saying "burn them all" for HOURS and he knew what that meant. It wasn't until the Mad King told him to bring him his Father's head that he killed him. Yes he mentioned all the innocent people... because he was pissed that instead of getting credit for saving them like he thought he would, he was judged by Ned Stark and the people at larger as a backstabbing oath breaker. Saving the people was secondary by product of saving his FATHER.

 

As far as riding North, Jaimie went because it MADE SENSE to do so. He saw the dead... he saw Danerys and her forces on the field. He NEVER thought for one second that they could win against either side, the dead or Dany's armies and he said so.  He told her that regardless of which side won in the North, that THEY would lose to the victor. Cersei didn't listen and Jamie left her. But being true to who he is and the bond that the two of them share, he went back to her and she was the ruin of him... as other characters in the show predicted.

 

Lastly, even though I was always of the mind that they wouldn't go full Targeryan Mad Queen with Dany, they set her ruthless side up back from the first season. She just always seemed to display it against people who "deserved" it. Her turn to madness didn't come out of nowhere regardless of whether we like the choice for her character or not. It was definitely set up.

 

There are definitely things that could be critiqued about the show these last couple of seasons for sure... they have not been perfect. But "Garbage"? "Worse thing I've seen on TV?" BULLSHIT. It's hard to take that kind of vitriol seriously especially when a lot of the folks making those statements back them up with weak and often poorly thought out, emotional reasons based largely on head canon or fundamental misunderstandings of what they are seeing.  Having Dany turn full mad queen feels lazy and obvious to me and I would be surprised if this is indeed what GRRM has in mind for her character. Too bad we probably won't ever find out unless he's finished the last two books and this is all a big marketing scam.

 

Anyway, a few story choices aside, I'm enjoying this season and looking forward to seeing them wrap things up. People will be pissed but like every other show, once people get to revisit the series in it's entirety, I'm certain it will hold up. One more episode to go.

 

I wish there was a standing ovation “like” option

[Greatoneshere]

Mediocre episode but at least they had the balls to follow through on the hints the books and show have been dropping for years and made her the Mad Queen.

 

Cersei becoming a blubbering idiot pretty quickly with no real contingency plans was pretty bizarre. CleganeBowl fight was lame (contrast this with the fight choreography between the Mountain and the Viper) and Varys letting himself so easily get cornered to be killed was also lame (and not consistent with his previously established character - the same thing happened with Roose Bolton and Littlefinger in prior seasons). 

 

Well shot, acted, directed, etc. but story-wise it was just okay.

[RedSoxFan9]

Dany will kill Jon, and the last scene of the series will be Arya slitting her throat.

[elbobo]

Dany was always portrayed as the savor of the downtrodden even when she was cooking her enemies, she was the breaker of chains. Yeah her enemies felt her wrath but the innocents were always separate. 

 

Kings Landing surrenders. "Time to BBQ some babies" That is why it feels so out of nowhere. 

 

If after the bells she had just flown off and targeted the keep it would be one thing but she was systemically murdering every civilian in the city that she could. 

[Spork3245]

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

13 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

Mediocre episode but at least they had the balls to follow through on the hints the books and show have been dropping for years and made her the Mad Queen.

 

Cersei becoming a blubbering idiot pretty quickly with no real contingency plans was pretty bizarre. CleganeBowl fight was lame (contrast this with the fight choreography between the Mountain and the Viper) and Varys letting himself so easily get cornered to be killed was also lame (and not consistent with his previously established character - the same thing happened with Roose Bolton and Littlefinger in prior seasons). 

 

Well shot, acted, directed, etc. but story-wise it was just okay.

I liked the little finger death. The townhall tribunal, and Arya swooping in to slit his throat. All in all it was one of my favorite and satisfying deaths in the show. My favorite being Joffry’s painful death. 

[CitizenVectron]

16 minutes ago, elbobo said:

Dany was always portrayed as the savor of the downtrodden even when she was cooking her enemies, she was the breaker of chains. Yeah her enemies felt her wrath but the innocents were always separate. 

 

Kings Landing surrenders. "Time to BBQ some babies" That is why it feels so out of nowhere. 

 

If after the bells she had just flown off and targeted the keep it would be one thing but she was systemically murdering every civilian in the city that she could. 

 

Exactly. She was extremely cruel to her enemies, but not the common folk. It would have been different if they had refused to surrender, but they did surrender. 

 

The show just did a bad job of being subtle, which is not entirely the fault of the show since TV is not a subtle medium compared to literature. But they could have showed her being cruel to random people before instead of just bad guys or competitors. Oh well.

[skillzdadirecta]

 

Damn... I guess I imagined the episode where she beheaded a loyal subject of hers and the crowd turned against her and started throwing rocks at her. She had to be ushered out of there by the unsullied... maybe that was a different show 

[Kal-El814]

1 hour ago, Massdriver said:

Up until last night, most of that could have been brushed aside and one could have even argued it was for a purpose. At a minimum, she was taking care of her enemies to deter future enemies. Last night was different since her enemies were done, yet she chose to kill thousands of innocents anyway. This was definitely the path she was on, but it also certainly wasn't paced properly since they had to squeeze so much in so fast.

 

Edit: It would have helped if she had some sort of evil adviser telling her to give in to her hate and anger.

I think the fact that it COULD be brushed aside but it turns out in hindsight that it wasn’t makes it compelling.

[Mercury33]

But she was cruel in how she dealt with her enemies.  There were plenty of examples of her being cruel.  Her mind was constantly wandering to the "dark side" for back of a better term.  Her advisers kept bringing her back.  She wasn't killing everyone just for the happy go lucky sheer joy of it.  She was killing them to send a message to the rest of the 7 kingdoms.  I'm sure in her mind it was something like "the death of this city is a small sacrifice to bring peace to the 7 kingdoms for generations to come" or some psychotic equivalent.  She realized she couldn't be loved(well she could be she no longer trusted her advisers to tell her that) and so she decided to rule through fear.  Destroy the city, show everyone else in the world what she was capable of and bring peace through obedience.  It's not out of nowhere.  None of her arc is out of nowhere.

[Amazatron]

2 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Damn... I guess I imagined the episode where she beheaded a loyal subject of hers and the crowd turned against her and started throwing rocks at her. She had to be ushered out of there by the unsullied... maybe that was a different show 

 

That guy took matters into his own hands, executed someone under trial, and perverted the course of justice.  She killed him as a message that this won’t be tolerated.  That’s a far stretch to slaughtering women and children.

[Massdriver]

2 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

I think the fact that it COULD be brushed aside but it turns out in hindsight that it wasn’t makes it compelling.

She made it a point to save slaves and the commoner. I already granted it was being built and even thought she was cruel and on the path to being a nut, but I think it was rushed. 

[skillzdadirecta]

7 minutes ago, Amazatron said:

 

That guy took matters into his own hands, executed someone under trial, and perverted the course of justice.  She killed him as a message that this won’t be tolerated.  That’s a far stretch to slaughtering women and children.

 And she torched the City for the same reason... a message to the Seven Kingdoms. She realized that she wouldn't be loved so she chose fear. She even telegraphed her rationale for why she felt it was justifiable. Again, I don't agree with the heel turn and would have preferred if they made a different choice, but the choice they DID make with her was set up. She could have easily gone in one direction or the other.

[Kal-El814]

4 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

She made it a point to save slaves and the commoner. I already granted it was being built and even thought she was cruel and on the path to being a nut, but I think it was rushed. 

The pacing of this season has been suboptimal, I don’t think there’s much doubt about that.

 

Again though, Dany had visions of walking through a smoldering King’s landing in season 1. She has ALWAYS needed to have her thirst for “justice” tempered by her advisers.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

I guess her thought process was that before she could feel the love of the common people that stood up and wanted to be saved. She felt no love, felt hatred even, and the only reason they were surrendering was they were afraid of her, not because they hated Cersei. 

 

So I guess she figured “fuck ‘em” and that she’s just burn the city to the ground wholesale. 

[Massdriver]

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

There's nothing selective about it... Jamie said in his story that the Mad King had been saying "burn them all" for HOURS and he knew what that meant. It wasn't until the Mad King told him to bring him his Father's head that he killed him. Yes he mentioned all the innocent people... because he was pissed that instead of getting credit for saving them like he thought he would, he was judged by Ned Stark and the people at large as a backstabbing oath breaker. Saving the people was secondary byproduct of saving his FATHER.

 

As far as riding North, Jaimie went because it MADE SENSE to do so. He saw the dead... he saw Danerys and her forces on the field. He NEVER thought for one second that they could win against either side, the dead or Dany's armies and he said so.  He told her that regardless of which side won in the North, that THEY would lose to the victor. Cersei didn't listen and Jamie left her. But being true to who he is and the bond that the two of them share, he went back to her and she was the ruin of him... as other characters in the show predicted.

Quote

 

Jaime Lannister:
I trust you. [sees Brienne staring] There it is. There's the look. I've seen it for 17 years on face after face. You all despise me. Kingslayer. Oathbreaker. A man without honor. You've heard of wildfire?

 

Brienne of Tarth:
Of course.

 

Jaime Lannister:
The Mad King was obsessed with it. He loved to watch people burn, the way their skin blackened and blistered and melted off their bones. He burned lords he didn't like. He burned Hands who disobeyed him. He burned anyone who was against him. Before long, half the country was against him. Aerys saw traitors everywhere. So he had his pyromancer place caches of wildfire all over the city. beneath the Sept of Baelor and the slums of Flea Bottom. Under houses, stables, taverns. Even beneath the Red Keep itself. Finally, the day of reckoning came. Robert Baratheon marched on the capital after his victory at the Trident. But my father arrived first with the whole Lannister army at his back, promising to defend the city against the rebels. I knew my father better than that. He's never been one to pick the losing side. I told the Mad King as much. I urged him to surrender peacefully. But the king didn't listen to me. He didn't listen to Varys who tried to warn him. But he did listen to Grand Maester Pycelle, that grey, sunken cunt. "You can trust the Lannisters," he said. "The Lannisters have always been true friends of the crown." So we opened the gates and my father sacked the city. Once again, I came to the king, begging him to surrender. He told me to... bring him my father's head. Then he... turned to his pyromancer. "Burn them all," he said. "Burn them in their homes. Burn them in their beds." Tell me, if your precious Renly commanded you to kill your own father and stand by while thousands of men, women, and children burned alive, would you have done it? Would you have kept your oath then? [Brienne stares at him in stunned silence] First, I killed the pyromancer. And then when the king turned to flee, I drove my sword into his back. "Burn them all," he kept saying. "Burn them all." I don't think he expected to die. He- he meant to... burn with the rest of us and rise again, reborn as a dragon to turn his enemies to ash. I slit his throat to make sure that didn't happen. That's where Ned Stark found me.

 

Brienne of Tarth:
If this is true... why didn't you tell anyone? Why didn't you tell Lord Stark?

 

Jaime Lannister:
Stark? You think the honorable Ned Stark wanted to hear my side? He judged me guilty the moment he set eyes on me. By what right does the wolf judge the lion? By what right!? [collapses]

 

Brienne of Tarth:
Help! Help! The Kingslayer!

 

Jaime Lannister:
Jaime. My name is Jaime.

 

It seemed to me that Jaime could have allowed the innocent people to die while also saving his father. Jaime chose to save the people. He isn't happy about being judged as an oathbreaker, but that doesn't make what he did any less significant. He saved a shit load of people, he had some level of concern for them based on this quote from season 3.

 

Now it turns out that he didn't care, but that wasn't the impression they left us with. If nothing else, Jaime is a very conflicted person, and the show decided to destroy a very cool redemption arc at the last minute. They didn't have to. If you like it, that's great. But don't pretend like I have to like it or think it was a good character arc. It actually was shit. Jaime went from being one of my favorite characters to one of the least interesting.

[Massdriver]

5 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

The pacing of this season has been suboptimal, I don’t think there’s much doubt about that.

 

Again though, Dany had visions of walking through a smoldering King’s landing in season 1. She has ALWAYS needed to have her thirst for “justice” tempered by her advisers.

I think we are agreeing with each other, but it felt somewhat out of place even with all the build up. As @elbobojust said,

"Kings Landing surrenders. "Time to BBQ some babies" That is why it feels so out of nowhere. "

 

It's not out of nowhere, but something didn't add up. I think what doesn't add up overall is the show has suffered from pacing because they shaved off too many episodes. It feels rushed.

[skillzdadirecta]

7 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

It seemed to me that Jaime could have allowed the innocent people to die while also saving his father. Jaime chose to save the people. He isn't happy about being judged as an oathbreaker, but that doesn't make what he did any less significant. He saved a shit load of people, he had some level of concern for them based on this quote from season 3.

 

Now it turns out that he didn't care, but that wasn't the impression they left us with. If nothing else, Jaime is a very conflicted person, and the show decided to destroy a very cool redemption arc at the last minute. They didn't have to. If you like it, that's great. But don't pretend like I have to like it or think it was a good character arc. It actually was shit. Jaime went from being one of my favorite characters to one of the least interesting.

Dude, I'm not saying you have to like it... I don't give a shit if you do or you don't. I'm saying that Jamie's "arc" (and a lot of you guys have zero idea of what that term actually means) was consistent from the beginning of the show. There was an idea that Jaimie had of the kind of man he wanted to be and the kind of man he actually was. At the end, he came to terms with that and accepted it. He TOLD Breanne he wasn't a good man and rattled off all the bad shit he did and continued to do even during his supposed redemption. It ALWAYS came back to Cersei. Always. And it ruined him... yes he's a very complex character, but he was never going to be a "good man" because at his core, he wasn't. 

 

 

[Massdriver]

5 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Dude, I'm not saying you have to like it... I don't give a shit if you do or you don't. I'm saying that Jamie's "arc" (and a lot of you guys have zero idea of what that term actually means) was consistent from the beginning of the show. There was an idea that Jaimie had of the kind of man he wanted to be and the kind of man he actually was. At the end, he came to terms with that and accepted it. He TOLD Breanne he wasn't a good man and rattled off all the bad shit he did and continued to do even during his supposed redemption. It ALWAYS came back to Cersei. Always. And it ruined him... yes he's a very complex character, but he was never going to be a "good man" because at his core, he wasn't. 

There's no need to be snobbish. If you don't think I understand what the term arc means, explain why you think that and why I can't say he had a shitty arc. I don't know who I'm being clumped with here when you say "guys".