Nintendo Update (03/04): Yuzu effectively surrenders without a fight, agrees to pay Nintendo $2.4 million and discontinues emulator

[Kal-El814]

8 hours ago, ShreddieMercury said:

Games have always been able to run better and look better on PC.  Again, just because you don't like Nintendo's hardware, or think it should be more powerful, does not entitle you to play their games on different hardware.  People are talking about this issue as if we have some sort of right to access and play any and all games however we choose, which is wild. 

 

While the legality of emulating a video game that you own is already settled, something much more gray like Yuzu, which makes money emulating commercially available software and is directly enabling piracy for the vast majority of users, is not nearly as clear cut.

 

Pitching the notion of emulation as one of gamer entitlement is being pedantic to the point of fallacy.

 

I don't even know what you're advocating for or pushing back against in what I emphasized as I don't think anyone here is advocating for being able to do something like cheat in online games via trainers, or for piracy. Say what you mean.

 

Aside from that, we should be in favor of more / broader consumer rights and not fewer, absent compelling reasons. None of which are in play, here. Gaming EULAs or licensing agreements have always been fucked, we're just now entering an era where they can be easily enforced remotely. That sucks. It also says nothing about the fact that for a company like Nintendo specifically, it's problematic that inaccessible and incomprehensible EULAs govern the licensing for products that are often directly marketed to children who have no idea that they're paying for something that could be turned off tomorrow and their recourse for something like that is fuck all.

[unogueen]

Profits care no shit for preservation. Do you have any idea how terrible the states of preservation hygiene is in gaming. If not code, it's the mess of mergers that muddy stakeholders into practical ghosts. Preservation has always been the duty of citizens. Historians just study what's preserved. If that's not enough service based models with no physical equivalent are begging for piracy. Remember, EULAs were worth nothing until some stupid judge said otherwise. Keep the ground.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

19 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

it's problematic that inaccessible and incomprehensible EULAs govern the licensing for products that are often directly marketed to children who have no idea that they're paying for something that could be turned off tomorrow and their recourse for something like that is fuck all.

hmm has a court ever ruled in whether an EULA can be legally agreed to by a non-emancipated minor? They cant sign contracts without a legal guardian, so how could anything in a ELUA be legally enforceable against a minor. That would almost make every ELUA a law unto itself. Enforceable by governments and courts, but not ratified by any government. 

[Spork3245]

 

Standard response basically saying “sure, we’ll fight”

[GameDadGrant]

I don't think anyone answered my question...but if Playstation or Xbox games were emulated and available to play for free, would Sony or Microsoft let this slide? Or would they also sue?

[crispy4000]

14 minutes ago, GameDadGrant said:

I don't think anyone answered my question...but if Playstation or Xbox games were emulated and available to play for free, would Sony or Microsoft let this slide? Or would they also sue?

Sony already lost twice back in the PS1 era.  Precedent is the thing keeping them from doing it again.

 

Nintendo gets hit with piracy more directly since their consoles are generally easier to emulate.

[GameDadGrant]

8 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Sony already lost twice back in the PS1 era.  Precedent is the thing keeping them from doing it again.

 

Nintendo gets hit with piracy more directly since their consoles are generally easier to emulate.

 

Twice? I know they took down bleem! back in the day. And the website lik-sang. For...some reason. But if emulation were to cross to Playstation games...Sony would sue, no?

[stepee]

4 minutes ago, GameDadGrant said:

 

Twice? I know they took down bleem! back in the day. And the website lik-sang. For...some reason. But if emulation were to cross to Playstation games...Sony would sue, no?

 

They took bleem! down by running them through court until they ran out of money but they did not actually take them down legally by winning any case.

[GameDadGrant]

5 minutes ago, stepee said:

 

They took bleem! down by running them through court until they ran out of money but they did not actually take them down legally by winning any case.

 

Okay.

 

But they still sued, correct?

[stepee]

5 minutes ago, GameDadGrant said:

 

Okay.

 

But they still sued, correct?

 

They did attempt to sue them, I’m just making sure it’s clear that they didn’t win any case and that what they did was shitty. 

 

Im not sure what your actual argument is as there are emulators for vita, psp, ps1, ps2, ps3, and even ps4. emulators are starting to make progress. 

[crispy4000]

40 minutes ago, GameDadGrant said:

 

Twice? I know they took down bleem! back in the day. And the website lik-sang. For...some reason. But if emulation were to cross to Playstation games...Sony would sue, no?

An older emulator on Mac was sued first.  I used it back in the day, it was compatible with the discs and was amazing for the time.  Sony ended up buying them, then shut it down.

 

Connectix Virtual Game Station - Wikipedia

EN.M.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

Emulation has never not been a thing for PlayStation platforms.  But it takes longer generally.  Same with Xbox platforms.  With modern games from both of them getting PC ports, there’s less incentive now.

[GameDadGrant]

18 minutes ago, stepee said:

They did attempt to sue them, I’m just making sure it’s clear that they didn’t win any case and that what they did was shitty. 

 

Im not sure what your actual argument is as there are emulators for vita, psp, ps1, ps2, ps3, and even ps4. emulators are starting to make progress. 

 

No argument, just looking for clarification. Which I feel you provided. Thank you. 

[Keyser_Soze]

3 hours ago, GameDadGrant said:

I don't think anyone answered my question...but if Playstation or Xbox games were emulated and available to play for free, would Sony or Microsoft let this slide? Or would they also sue?

 

Most Xbox games that are available now have no need for emulation because they generally have a PC version. So you can legally buy the PC version or pirate the PC version. However, this thread is about emulation not piracy and the piracy is what's frowned upon. For the few PS5 games that aren't available on the PC I'm sure there are ways to hack a PS5 to pirate a PS5 game, just like every console before it. But again, this isn't a thread about piracy.

[gamer.tv]

At some point, there needs to be an overall conversation and a ‘sorting out’ of lawful ‘preservation’ for media that is not available via a streaming/download service and is also not still being produced physically. 
 

I can understand not being happy about the availability of anything that can be purchased in a manner the IP owner receives money, but everything else, on any platform, if the IP owner hasn’t made it available, should be fair game. 

[Spork3245]

8 hours ago, GameDadGrant said:

 

Twice? I know they took down bleem! back in the day. And the website lik-sang. For...some reason. But if emulation were to cross to Playstation games...Sony would sue, no?

There are various Xbox and PSX/PS2/PS3/PS4 emulators.

[LazyPiranha]

I think Sony and Xbox kind of skate by on power more than anything else.  Yes, PlayStation and Xbox emulation are a thing, but you generally speaking need a PC more powerful and expensive than the current console to make it run worth a damn and older emulators aren’t eating into the current market so it’s hardly worth the effort.  If you really wanted to run PS4 games, it’s way cheaper to buy a used PS4 or even a PS5 than a competent PC.  Nintendo has its current platform at risk and compared to the other two actually consistently makes their older games available for a small fee.  

[Spork3245]

9 minutes ago, LazyPiranha said:

I think Sony and Xbox kind of skate by on power more than anything else.  Yes, PlayStation and Xbox emulation are a thing, but you generally speaking need a PC more powerful and expensive than the current console to make it run worth a damn and older emulators aren’t eating into the current market so it’s hardly worth the effort.  If you really wanted to run PS4 games, it’s way cheaper to buy a used PS4 or even a PS5 than a competent PC.  Nintendo has its current platform at risk and compared to the other two actually consistently makes their older games available for a small fee.  

I find it hard to believe that “their current platform is at risk” when the Switch is on its final year of life (while Yuzu has been around for years now), and is the third best selling console of all time.

 

EDIT: Yuzu has been available and useable since 2018.

[LazyPiranha]

8 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

I find it hard to believe that “their current platform is at risk” when the Switch is on its final year of life (while Yuzu has been around for years now), and is the third best selling console of all time.

People were posting sub 1 hour speed runs of TotK on launch day.  They didn’t figure it out and get that down in less than 24 hours, they were playing leaked emulated copies.  

We can argue back and forth about the actual damage of piracy and emulation endlessly, it’s always going to be theoretical.  You can buy a steam deck and get switch emulation working fairly well out of the box with minimal effort.  

 

[Spork3245]

26 minutes ago, LazyPiranha said:

People were posting sub 1 hour speed runs of TotK on launch day.  They didn’t figure it out and get that down in less than 24 hours, they were playing leaked emulated copies.  

TotK has sold over 20m copies and is the fastest selling Zelda game of all time.

 

26 minutes ago, LazyPiranha said:

We can argue back and forth about the actual damage of piracy and emulation endlessly, it’s always going to be theoretical.

Except in this case apparently  

 

26 minutes ago, LazyPiranha said:

You can buy a steam deck and get switch emulation working fairly well out of the box with minimal effort.  

I think most ITT are really overestimating how easy it is to get Yuzu working well.

[Greatoneshere]

I mean, you can emulate Xbox and PlayStation games, but Xbox Original, Xbox 360, and PS3 emulation are still in their nascent stages. Many games don't emulate fully or well, for the PS3 emulation it's because of the "emotion engine", not sure why Xbox Original is tough to emulate given it's old but maybe it's because of unique hardware architecture. Xbox 360 is the most surprising since that's just off the shelf PC parts essentially.

 

My point being it is far easier to emulate Wii/Wii U/Switch games on your PC than it is Xbox OG/Xbox 360/PS3 games on your PC by a wide margin (I say this as someone who emulates frequently). Not sure about PS4/Xbox One emulation, never tried.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

16 hours ago, GameDadGrant said:

 

Okay.

 

But they still sued, correct?

I assume even if they think they’ll lose they sue because they still have to show an effort to protect their copyright or trademark. If they let it go and somebody else comes along and monetizes an emulator or makes an emulator that actually could affect their business, it could put them on shaky ground. 
 

I do wish somebody with a lot more money was behind Bleem! at the time. Imagine if they’d won and then even console based emulators would have been deemed legal so long as you are using a legal copy of the game. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

I think most ITT are really overestimating how easy it is to get Yuzu working well.

True -- casual gamer JimBob isn't going to bang his head against the wall to figure out how Yuzu to pirate Switch games.  

But once you do, I think it can be a better experience than the native hardware.

 

[AshsToAshs]

On 3/3/2024 at 9:37 AM, Greatoneshere said:

... not sure why Xbox Original is tough to emulate given it's old but maybe it's because of unique hardware architecture...

My basic understanding of why the original Xbox never got good emulators are:
1. The community around it was never that big, especially outside of America.

2. The original Xbox was so incredibly easy to mod, that most of the diehards of that community are satisfied with that.

[Greatoneshere]

1 minute ago, AshsToAshs said:

My basic understanding of why the original Xbox never got good emulators are:
1. The community around it was never that big, especially outside of America.

2. The original Xbox was so incredibly easy to mod, that most of the diehards of that community are satisfied with that.

 

That's a shame if true because I'd love to, for instance, play Otogi on PC emulation - game would look great and at 60fps+ no less.

[Keyser_Soze]

6 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

That's a shame if true because I'd love to, for instance, play Otogi on PC emulation - game would look great and at 60fps+ no less.

 

Play them on the Xbox Series X. They are backwards compatible.

[Greatoneshere]

21 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

Play them on the Xbox Series X. They are backwards compatible.

 

That's true but it's just an example, I'm not buying a Series X for some OG Xbox backwards compatibility games. I also prefer the variety of emulation options to improve the game over Microsoft's good but sparing backwards compatibility code. I have an 80gb PS3 hardware backwards compatible PS2 and then and now I still prefer and use PCSX2.

[Brian]

On 3/3/2024 at 1:07 PM, AbsolutSurgen said:

True -- casual gamer JimBob isn't going to bang his head against the wall to figure out how Yuzu to pirate Switch games.  

But once you do, I think it can be a better experience than the native hardware.

 

JimBob here. I couldn’t get emulation or GP to work on the Deck. I would say I am more savvy than the mainstream. 

[AshsToAshs]

33 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Play them on the Xbox Series X. They are backwards compatible.

Otogi is backwards compatible, yeah.

There are a handful of truly exclusive original Xbox games that never became backwards compatible.

 

Toejam and Earl 3 is one of those. A game no one really cares about, but I have a mild amount of nostalgia for. 

[Keyser_Soze]

18 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

I'm not buying a Series X for some OG Xbox backwards compatibility games.

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Nintendo Switch emulator Yuzu will utterly fold and pay $2.4M to settle its lawsuit - The Verge

WWW.THEVERGE.COM

---

Just about a week after getting sued.

 

Quote

 

Just over a week ago, Nintendo sued the developers of the leading Nintendo Switch emulator, Yuzu, for “facilitating piracy at a colossal scale.” Now, it appears that Yuzu will give up without a fight — and give Nintendo everything it wanted.

 

According to a joint filing, Tropic Haze has not only agreed to pay $2,400,000 to Nintendo but also says Yuzu is “primarily designed to circumvent and play Nintendo Switch games.” The company agrees to be permanently enjoined from working on Yuzu, hosting Yuzu, distributing Yuzu’s code or features, hosting websites and social media that promote Yuzu, or doing anything else that circumvents Nintendo’s copyright protection.

 

Oh, and it will surrender the yuzu-emu.org domain name to Nintendo, agree to delete not only its copies of Yuzu but also “all circumvention tools used for developing or using Yuzu—such as TegraRcmGUI, Hekate, Atmosphère, Lockpick_RCM, NDDumpTool, nxDumpFuse, and TegraExplorer,” and hand over any “physical circumvention devices” and “modified Nintendo hardware” to Nintendo. It also agrees to not delete any other “evidence” that infringes Nintendo’s IP rights.

 

 

[Keyser_Soze]

Looks like Nintendo was content to just squeeze 2 million from Yuzu

 

 

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.rid.56980/gov.uscourts.rid.56980.10.0.pdf

 

[ThreePi]

Woof. I love Yuzu. I am maybe one of the few that only play may own legit rips, but the last few Switch games I bought I played through on Yuzu. 

[AshsToAshs]

The fact that both Nintendo and Tropic Haze are now asking the judge to say yes to following feels weird:

Quote

Developing or distributing software, including Yuzu, that in its ordinary course functions only when cryptographic keys are integrated without authorization, violates the Digital Millennium Copyright Act’s prohibition on trafficking in devices that circumvent effective technological measures, because the software is primarily designed for the purpose of circumventing technological measures.

(that's taken from the verge article linked above)

 

This is tinfoil hat conspiracy talk, but that very much feels like Nintendo is telling Tropic Haze to go along with requesting this statement in exchange for not having to get sued for a harsher fine.

 

EDIT: also, if the judge goes along with that statement, then every "bring your own BIOS" emulator is now going to less legal.

[Slug]

All the official download links are toast and if you do have the installer it will fail to find/download it's necessary config files.

 

[Biggie]

A message from Nintendo: