Afghanistan Update: Islamic State claims responsibility for multiple bombings over last two days, including two Shia mosques

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Joe, the choice wasn't solely between "no chaos" and "oh-shit-oh-shit-what-do-we-do-now?"

[Jason]

24 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

Joe, the choice wasn't solely between "no chaos" and "oh-shit-oh-shit-what-do-we-do-now?"

 

Joe getting sleepy, sad. 

[Signifyin(g)Monkey]

Good read:

‘Afghanistan is Your fault’

 

Quote

What the public does care about, however, is using Afghanistan as raw material for cheap patriotism and partisan attacks (some right and some wrong, but few of them in good faith) on every president since 2001. After the worst attack on U.S. soil, Americans had no real interest in adult conversation about the reality of anti-terrorist operations in so harsh an environment as Afghanistan (which might have entailed a presence there long beyond 20 years), nor did they want to think about whether “draining the swamp” and modernizing and developing Afghanistan (which would mean a lot more than a few elections) was worth the cost and effort.

 

Maybe it would have been worth it. Or maybe such a project was impossible. We’ll never know for certain, because American political and military leaders only tried pieces of several strategies, never a coherent whole, mostly to keep the costs and casualties down and to keep the war off the front pages and away from a public that didn’t want to hear about it. Today, many claim that they did not know what the military or the government were really up to, and they point to The Washington Post’s attempt to create a Pentagon Papers vibe around a set of revelations that were not nearly as shocking as the secrets of Vietnam—or should not have been, anyway, to anyone who read a newspaper during the past two decades.

Quote

But as comforting as it would be to blame Obama and Trump, we must look inward and admit that we told our elected leaders—of both parties—that they were facing a no-win political test. If they chose to leave, they would be cowards who abandoned Afghanistan. If they chose to stay, they were warmongers intent on pursuing “forever war.” And so here we are, in the place we were destined to be: resting on 20 years of safety from another 9/11, but with Afghanistan again in the hands of the Taliban.

Pretty much.  The whole war on terror, really, served to show how contemptibly easy it is to manipulate the average American by using cheap jingoism and demagoguery to gin up support for military adventurism, how weak their stomachs are for handling the tough consequences of their decisions, and how much they will whine about their wounded pride once, after untold numbers of troops and civilians have lost everything in their name, they finally have to deal with said consequences and follow through on the conviction that ‘we’ve spent enough blood and treasure fighting in foreign lands.’

 

All the while waving ‘we support the troops flags’ when they don’t think about them at all except at political rallies and 4th of July celebrations. (Military families aside)

 

My fellow Americans, I love ya, but my god sometimes you act like such dumbasses…

 

[SuperSpreader]

14 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

Good read:

‘Afghanistan is Your fault’

 

Pretty much.  The whole war on terror, really, served to show how contemptibly easy it is to manipulate the average American by using cheap jingoism and demagoguery to gin up support for military adventurism, how weak their stomachs are for handling the tough consequences of their decisions, and how much they will whine about their wounded pride once, after untold numbers of troops and civilians have lost everything in their name, they finally have to deal with said consequences and follow through on the conviction that ‘we’ve spent enough blood and treasure fighting in foreign lands.’

 

All the while waving ‘we support the troops flags’ when they don’t think about them at all except at political rallies and 4th of July celebrations. (Military families aside)

 

My fellow Americans, I love ya, but my god sometimes you act like such dumbasses…

 

This article is exactly right. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

@Signifyin(g)Monkey I read that article when it was first published and couldn't agree with it more and it makes Biden's "victim blaming" all the more reprehensible.

[SuperSpreader]

10 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

@Signifyin(g)Monkey I read that article when it was first published and couldn't agree with it more and it makes Biden's "victim blaming" all the more reprehensible.

I don't think the problem is Biden. This is and always was shit. 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Quote

Coverage in print media remained solid, but cable-news coverage of Afghanistan dropped off quickly, especially once a new adventure was launched in Iraq.

By Tom Nichols. Incredible. Article would be more salient if not from him

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

fascinating thread.

 

[Jason]

54 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

Good read:

‘Afghanistan is Your fault’

 

Pretty much.  The whole war on terror, really, served to show how contemptibly easy it is to manipulate the average American by using cheap jingoism and demagoguery to gin up support for military adventurism, how weak their stomachs are for handling the tough consequences of their decisions, and how much they will whine about their wounded pride once, after untold numbers of troops and civilians have lost everything in their name, they finally have to deal with said consequences and follow through on the conviction that ‘we’ve spent enough blood and treasure fighting in foreign lands.’

 

All the while waving ‘we support the troops flags’ when they don’t think about them at all except at political rallies and 4th of July celebrations. (Military families aside)

 

My fellow Americans, I love ya, but my god sometimes you act like such dumbasses…

 

 

I was in middle school. 

[Bloodporne]

World News: "Afghanistan totally fucked"

 

Meanwhile in America...

 

 

 

[Zaku3]

Ex-Afghanistan women’s captain tells footballers: burn kits and delete photos | Afghanistan | The Guardian

WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM

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Khalida Popal says female footballers must take safety precautions as Afghanistan falls under Taliban rule

 

[CayceG]

Tom Nichols is on a roll with his "actually, it isn't the elites' fault at all--it's YOUR fault!" articles:

 

Trump is not ruining democracy, we are. And it's been anguishing to confront: Tom Nichols

WWW.USATODAY.COM

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I was worried long before Trump and the Capitol riot, as political jousting turned zealous and well-off friends called America a disastrous mess.

 

 

 

With this and with the Atlantic article, it seems to lack the reality that these conditions for how the American people respond were actually put in place by those in power. None of this flag waving nonsense began organically. 

 

I think Tom has defense analyst brain and is trying to deflect criticism or responsibility. Because his ilk have more blood on their hands for this Afghanistan thing (and Iraq, and the GWOT, and ruining democracy) than us lowly peons. 

[SuperSpreader]

4 minutes ago, CayceG said:

Tom Nichols is on a roll with his "actually, it isn't the elites' fault at all--it's YOUR fault!" articles:

 

Trump is not ruining democracy, we are. And it's been anguishing to confront: Tom Nichols

WWW.USATODAY.COM

---

I was worried long before Trump and the Capitol riot, as political jousting turned zealous and well-off friends called America a disastrous mess.

 

 

 

With this and with the Atlantic article, it seems to lack the reality that these conditions for how the American people respond were actually put in place by those in power. None of this flag waving nonsense began organically. 

 

I think Tom has defense analyst brain and is trying to deflect criticism or responsibility. Because his ilk have more blood on their hands for this Afghanistan thing (and Iraq, and the GWOT, and ruining democracy) than us lowly peons. 

Bush was reelected. 

[Jason]

1 minute ago, SuperSpreader said:

Bush was reelected. 

 

1 hour ago, Jason said:

 

I was in middle school. 

 

I also didn't turn 18 until 2008.

[CayceG]

1 minute ago, SuperSpreader said:

Bush was reelected. 

 

After our revenge fantasies were stoked by his Admin, a good portion of the media, and after outright lies were propagated about Kerry's military service to make him seem weak on war. 

 

 

[thewhyteboar]

I think Trump has made a lot of us forget but the Bush administration was just abysmal start to finish. Bush can paint all the pictures he wants and share candy with Michelle but he is still a weak war-mongering war criminal liar.

 

I wish Paul Wellstone had lived so he could have kicked his ass in 2004.

[SuperSpreader]

5 minutes ago, CayceG said:

 

After our revenge fantasies were stoked by his Admin, a good portion of the media, and after outright lies were propagated about Kerry's military service to make him seem weak on war. 

 

 

Excuses for the public. 

[Jwheel86]

Well this fucking awful if true....

 

Afghanistan: Desperate women throw babies over razor wire at compound, asking British soldiers to take them

NEWS.SKY.COM

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As every day passes, the relief operation gets more and more urgent and desperate, as the British military tries to move thousands of people out of Afghanistan in just days.

 

[CayceG]

I'm not saying that ALL of the responsibility rests on the 'elites' or whatever. What I'm trying to get across is that Tom's article is making the same mistake in the other direction. 

 

We don't deserve ALL of the responsibility. Not even most of it. 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

2 hours ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

Good read:

‘Afghanistan is Your fault’

 

Pretty much.  The whole war on terror, really, served to show how contemptibly easy it is to manipulate the average American by using cheap jingoism and demagoguery to gin up support for military adventurism, how weak their stomachs are for handling the tough consequences of their decisions, and how much they will whine about their wounded pride once, after untold numbers of troops and civilians have lost everything in their name, they finally have to deal with said consequences and follow through on the conviction that ‘we’ve spent enough blood and treasure fighting in foreign lands.’

 

All the while waving ‘we support the troops flags’ when they don’t think about them at all except at political rallies and 4th of July celebrations. (Military families aside)

 

My fellow Americans, I love ya, but my god sometimes you act like such dumbasses…

 

there is blame to go on both the elite and political leaders and the American public. But to say it is all the American public is like claiming Hitler only did what the German people wanted. 
 

“we the people” can’t order the military to go anywhere. And you don’t see Democrat campaigning on sending troops in to occupy foreign countries in prolonged military theaters of war. 
 

The GOP is more afraid to disappoint their blood thirsty, crazy, and racist base than Democrats are in not pushing for a socialist, bottom-up utopia. Republican voters are pushing the GOP further to the fringes with each election cycle. As soon as they hit the “line” one Congressman won’t cross, they vote in somebody crazier. 

[Kal-El814]

The American government made no small effort to convince the American public that this was a just and necessary endeavor, having someone say after the fact that we shouldn’t have been fooled is… a take.

[AbsolutSurgen]

I think his point has more to do with the American public becoming more illiberal (on both the left of the right.

Is he wrong?

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Aside from a few cranks on social media, illiberalism is a feature, not a bug, of the right and not the left. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

The sooner "liberalism" ends up on the ash heap of history, the better.

[brucoe]

47 minutes ago, CayceG said:

I'm not saying that ALL of the responsibility rests on the 'elites' or whatever. What I'm trying to get across is that Tom's article is making the same mistake in the other direction. 

 

We don't deserve ALL of the responsibility. Not even most of it. 

"We're all to blame" is the same stupid justification that assholes use when you go out to dinner with them, order a water because you're poor while they eat the most expensive thing on the menu, and then they say "we should probably split the check." The majority of the population had nothing to do with the war in Afghanistan, while "enlightened" elitists had everything to do with it, not to mention the war profiteers who practically raped that country in the last couple of decades because they could. And then they'll try to cast off any blame whatsoever by saying "well, we're all responsible so we all should be to blame". And they'll use weak arguments like "well, you continued to vote that guy in" as if a choice between two people who were going to end up doing the same thing is somehow our fault for not magically coming up with an alternative option. This is why I have spent my life time 100 percent against the concept of those who pursue power because almost always the echelons of power are consumed by the greediest, most self-centered individuals who have had a life of privilege which gives them the impression that they were somehow bred to be someone deserving of more and more power. It's partly why I'm still very much an advocate of leadership by lottery as was the Greek model before Adams reinterpreted it for democracy by turning lottery into a popularity contest.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 hour ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Aside from a few cranks on social media, illiberalism is a feature, not a bug, of the right and not the left. 

Opinion | Tom Cotton: Send In the Military - The New York Times

WWW.NYTIMES.COM

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The nation must restore order. The military stands ready.

where's the equivalent democratic oped to this? From a sitting senator with presidential aspirations? No? Nothing? Shut the fuck up then. Trying to both sides the descent into open authoritarianism and fascism is willfully ignorant at best, and indicates a goldfish brain incapable of remembering 6 months to one year in the past at minimum.

 

Oh look more left wing illiberalism 

 

 

This is an elected official. Find a Dem elected who has said 1/10th of this and hasn't resigned within a week

 

[Guest]

Saw something saying more than 50% of the Afghan population is under 20, and as such have never lived with anything but the US backed Government. Can’t imagine what it would be like to fall under Taliban rule after that.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

2 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Saw something saying more than 50% of the Afghan population is under 20, and as such have never lived with anything but the US backed Government. Can’t imagine what it would be like to fall under Taliban rule after that.

 

For the population living outside of the urban areas, relatively little (if anything at all) will change as the village chiefs/elders will still be the ones governing day-to-day life.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

For the population living outside of the urban areas, relatively little (if anything at all) will change as the village chiefs/elders will still be the ones governing day-to-day life.

Kabul alone is a couple of million people 20 and under. While Afghanistan is a majority rural nation, still some huge urban populations.

[CitizenVectron]

Need to bring back city states that are recognized and can self-govern.

[osxmatt]

 

[Brick]

Wait I keep hearing that the war could have ended as early as December of 2001 with the capture of killing of Osama bin Laden. That is all kinds of infuriating if true. What's the story behind this? 

[ShreddieMercury]

2 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

Need to bring back city states that are recognized and can self-govern.

 

Not specifically about what's happening in Afghanistan, but how soon can the United States dissolve into something resembling smaller geographic areas detached from federal oversight?  When so much of the populace's perception of reality is corrupted to this extreme, it becomes essentially impossible to live together.  We're seeing it play out with rising social unrest, which will spill over into political violence before long.  My wife is a nurse, and the absolutely absurd shit that's she's dealing with at her hospital makes me want to shoot myself into space.

 

Also how can I move my family to Canada?

[SuperSpreader]

13 minutes ago, Brick said:

Wait I keep hearing that the war could have ended as early as December of 2001 with the capture of killing of Osama bin Laden. That is all kinds of infuriating if true. What's the story behind this? 

Bin Laden wasn't killed in 2001 and America was hungry for more war until 2007 where it was then mixed 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

who asked this backwater what they think