Microsoft Xbox Series X | S OT - Power Your Dreams, update: FTC case unredacted documents leaked, including XSX mid-generation refresh, new gyro/haptic-enabled controller, and next-generation plans for 2028

[SimpleG]

@Ominous

"ts industrial design enables us to deliver four times the processing power of Xbox One X in the most quiet and efficient way, something that is critically important in delivering truly immersive gameplay. We also designed Xbox Series X to support both vertical and horizontal orientation. It's bold and unique, very much like our fans around the world and the team of collaborators and innovators who built it"

https://www.windowscentral.com/yes-xbox-series-x-can-be-used-horizontally-well-vertically

[JPDunks4]

This last CoD released before Warzone was out, so many still felt the need to buy it, not knowing what the plan with Warzone was.

 

I think they may drive sales of the new CoD if they include unique skins and other cosmetics for Warzone with the purchase.

 

And doesn't NPD include digital purchases now, which include Micro-transactions from Warzone?  The same way GTA5 has remained on the NPD every month, from its Micro-transactions for GTA Online?

[JPDunks4]

2 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

You're waiting until after Football season is over -- that's the point.

It's not "Old Madden" though.  It's 5 month old Madden. 

 

You're acting like they are putting Madden 19 in EA Play with Madden 20 launches.  It's putting the new Madden in 5 months later.

 

Of course there are a lot of Football fans that will want the new Madden Day 1, but again, they won't be getting huge deals on used Maddens during the new football season.  And if they do care about buying it cheap on the used market, they can then just play it as part of their subscription at that point.

[SimpleG]

2 minutes ago, JPDunks4 said:

Of course there are a lot of Football fans that will want the new Madden Day 1, but again, they won't be getting huge deals on used Maddens during the new football season.  And if they do care about buying it cheap on the used market, they can then just play it as part of their subscription at that point.

Yup

Used game stores dont discount Madden until after the season is over with and the hype with it, at worst someone is losing 5 bucks if they buy digital over used.

[skillzdadirecta]

31 minutes ago, SimpleG said:

Physical media for consoles is on the way out, and in the wake of the pandemic who wants to be buying used shit from possible infected sources. 

 

Some of the shit being posted here reminds me of the phrase that I believe @skillzdadirecta used not to long ago "Concerned Trolling"

It's called "concern trolling" and i WISH I came up with the term but I didn't. Some of this does seem like that because for awhile the popular sentiment was "Who still buys physical media?" MS releases an all digital console that is designed to be used in conjuction with their gamepass service and its like "But I won't be able to buy used games!". The used game market has been steadily dying for YEARS, one because digital sales have been increasing and TWO, because the big retailers do so many sales that you can often get the game brand new for cheaper than what Gamestop would sell used. Gamestop was ALWAYS a ripoff and their whole business model was based on ripping off kids and their parents. And I can't remember when Gamefly had been mentioned as much as it has here recently.

 

The bottom line is if used games and discs are that important to you as a consumer, then save up a little more money and buy the Series X. Problem solved. Oh and the PS5 has an all digital version too... that is MORE expensive BTW and doesn't have Gamepass. So is that not consumer friendly either? 

[cusideabelincoln]

23 minutes ago, SimpleG said:

Physical media for consoles is on the way out, and in the wake of the pandemic who wants to be buying used shit from possible infected sources. 

 

Some of the shit being posted here reminds me of the phrase that I believe @skillzdadirecta used not to long ago "Concerned Trolling"

 

Dude, shut. the. fuck. up.  This isn't trolling; it's a discussion.  Most of you live in or near major metropolitan areas.  There is not a major city within a 90 mile radius from my location.  My town has 2 Gamestops (3 up until last year) plus a couple of local used game shops.  Discs have value in my location.  It's fucking ridiculous you want to label people with disparate notions as trolls.

 

29 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

The used game market is so healthy, that Gamestop is closing 450 stores this year on top of the over 300 they closed last year.

 

 

This article is from yesterday.

 

The only metric that matters here is 83% of all sales being digital.  I would have never guessed it was that high; I would have presumed 50% at best.  Of course, without having access to the full article and seeing the breakdown of PC vs. Console, that 83% figure is also inflated as it includes PC sales, which are all digital.

[Spork3245]

49 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

The used game market is so healthy, that Gamestop is closing 450 stores this year on top of the over 300 they closed last year.

 

 

This article is from yesterday.

Ehhh, while physical sales may be down a bit, GameStop’s issues go well beyond the used video game market. Competition from Amazon regarding used games (users being able to directly sell their used games via Amazon for a lot more than the pennies GS gives) is also a large factor, I’d imagine.

[skillzdadirecta]

8 minutes ago, cusideabelincoln said:

The only metric that matters here is 83% of all sales being digital.  I would have never guessed it was that high; I would have presumed 50% at best.  Of course, without having access to the full article and seeing the breakdown of PC vs. Console, that 83% figure is also inflated as it includes PC sales, which are all digital.

PC sales don't have much bearing on Gamestop anyway right? Gamestop never catered to the PC market.

 

3 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Ehhh, while physical sales may be down a bit, GameStop’s issues go well beyond the used video game market. Competition from Amazon regarding used games (users being able to directly sell their used games via Amazon for a lot more than the pennies GS gives) is also a large factor, I’d imagine.

 

25 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

The used game market has been steadily dying for YEARS, one because digital sales have been increasing and TWO, because the big retailers do so many sales that you can often get the game brand new for cheaper than what Gamestop would sell used.

 

[Mercury33]

If GameStop wanted to survive they would have leaned heavily into table top. Added more demo stations. Added more collectibles and started running more events. 

[Remarkableriots]

8 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

If GameStop wanted to survive they would have leaned heavily into table top. Added more demo stations. Added more collectibles and started running more events. 

Add some hooters waitresses and you could charge admission! 

[Mercury33]

14 minutes ago, Remarkableriots said:

Add some hooters waitresses and you could charge admission! 

The waitresses I don’t care about. But if they had hooters wings and friend pickles? I’d be there every day. 

[SimpleG]

3 hours ago, cusideabelincoln said:

Dude, shut. the. fuck. up.  This isn't trolling; it's a discussion.  Most of you live in or near major metropolitan areas.  There is not a major city within a 90 mile radius from my location.  My town has 2 Gamestops (3 up until last year) plus a couple of local used game shops.  Discs have value in my location.  It's fucking ridiculous you want to label people with disparate notions as trolls.

 

 

[JPDunks4]

Since everyone wants to share all the devs saying it'll affect next gen games.  Here's another viewpoint from a dev.  Not posting all this tweets so click and read it for yourself.

 

 

[skillzdadirecta]

37 minutes ago, JPDunks4 said:

Since everyone wants to share all the devs saying it'll affect next gen games.  Here's another viewpoint from a dev.  Not posting all this tweets so click and read it for yourself.

 

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 hour ago, JPDunks4 said:

Since everyone wants to share all the devs saying it'll affect next gen games.  Here's another viewpoint from a dev.  Not posting all this tweets so click and read it for yourself.

 

 

The ironic part, is that his game is literally being developed on the engine being programmed by the other guys in this thread. And oh yeah, he doesn’t even have a dev kit for Series S or X. 

[JPDunks4]

This person agrees with my point of view, he's right and all knowing without having a dev kit!

 

This person disagrees with my point of view, he's wrong and doesn't know a thing without having a dev kit!

[Keyser_Soze]

7 hours ago, JPDunks4 said:

I haven't been to a Gamestop since probable the early 360 days.

 

How much does a used CoD or Madden game cost within 3-6 months of it's launch?  Back in the day they hardly dropped value anywhere close to when they launch as not many people are returning or selling back a CoD or Madden.  I remember used copies being priced like $45 quite a while after it released.  

 

 

 

I remember a long time ago when I bought madden games (PS2 era for me) I went to trade in an old Madden at gamestop and there was a customer at the counter and he said, "I'll give you $20 for that copy right now" but I declined and traded it in for $5 instead, then they jack up the price after that.

 

[Keyser_Soze]

2 hours ago, JPDunks4 said:

Since everyone wants to share all the devs saying it'll affect next gen games.  Here's another viewpoint from a dev.  Not posting all this tweets so click and read it for yourself.

 

 

 

Use threadreader to make it easier to read. (I guess they got rid of embedding. Sad)

 

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1304003862894989312.html

[crispy4000]

32 minutes ago, JPDunks4 said:

This person agrees with my point of view, he's right and all knowing without having a dev kit!

 

This person disagrees with my point of view, he's wrong and doesn't know a thing without having a dev kit!

Having dev kit adds to credence with first-hand experience.  Though I agree that it shouldn’t be needed to speculate.

 

I think the best thing to hope for with Series S is that the raytracing performance surprises.

[Moa]

Fuck anyone who makes a 41 tweet long tweet. 

[Guest]

I don’t know anything about game development. I just play games. So I guess I don’t understand why a lower performance GPU targeted for lower resolution would have significant impact on what happens in the high end stuff, unless the idea is simply that devs won’t bother to properly scale down games and will instead build for the lower console and scale up.

 

But with two very powerful units in the PS5 and XSX, wouldn’t it be more likely that the market will primarily be made up of those two models and as such they would be the baseline from which games would be scaled down?

 

It would seem to me that the XSS can replicate the gameplay experience of the XSX, but with lesser visual flourishes. I guess I don’t understand why that is meaningfully different from PC games having sliders and toggles for graphical settings. 

[skillzdadirecta]

55 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

 

I remember a long time ago when I bought madden games (PS2 era for me) I went to trade in an old Madden at gamestop and there was a customer at the counter and he said, "I'll give you $20 for that copy right now" but I declined and traded it in for $5 instead, then they jack up the price after that.

 

That was their whole business model and it worked for longer than it should have.

[skillzdadirecta]

12 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I don’t know anything about game development. I just play games. So I guess I don’t understand why a lower performance GPU targeted for lower resolution would have significant impact on what happens in the high end stuff, unless the idea is simply that devs won’t bother to properly scale down games and will instead build for the lower console and scale up.

 

But with two very powerful units in the PS5 and XSX, wouldn’t it be more likely that the market will primarily be made up of those two models and as such they would be the baseline from which games would be scaled down?

 

It would seem to me that the XSS can replicate the gameplay experience of the XSX, but with lesser visual flourishes. I guess I don’t understand why that is meaningfully different from PC games having sliders and toggles for graphical settings. 

Spoiler

It isn't.

[Keyser_Soze]

54 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

It would seem to me that the XSS can replicate the gameplay experience of the XSX, but with lesser visual flourishes. I guess I don’t understand why that is meaningfully different from PC games having sliders and toggles for graphical settings. 

 

Because after a while (and @Xbob42 has said this a lot I believe) the "minimum" specs get moved up to the point where the minimum to run a game on a low end system outclass that system. So at launch XSS games will run fine with "the sliders turned down" but in 4 years it's not enough to turn those sliders down it won't be playable.

[legend]

20 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Because after a while (and @Xbob42 has said this a lot I believe) the "minimum" specs get moved up to the point where the minimum to run a game on a low end system outclass that system. So at launch XSS games will run fine with "the sliders turned down" but in 4 years it's not enough to turn those sliders down it won't be playable.

 

Yep this is my core concern. The S won't make a difference or hold anything back for the first part of this new gen because older PCs and even the current gen consoles will still be supported for a lot of games. It's the need to support the S for the *entire* generation that worries me. Games at the end of a generation are quite a bit more advanced and use more of the consoles features by the end.

 

To put things in perspective, my now ancient 980 is a 5TF card and in no world would I have expected my 980 to last until the end of this new generation. I would expect it to simply fail to meet minimum requirements well before that.

[Duderino]

2 hours ago, sblfilms said:

I don’t know anything about game development. I just play games. So I guess I don’t understand why a lower performance GPU targeted for lower resolution would have significant impact on what happens in the high end stuff, unless the idea is simply that devs won’t bother to properly scale down games and will instead build for the lower console and scale up.

 

But with two very powerful units in the PS5 and XSX, wouldn’t it be more likely that the market will primarily be made up of those two models and as such they would be the baseline from which games would be scaled down?

 

It would seem to me that the XSS can replicate the gameplay experience of the XSX, but with lesser visual flourishes. I guess I don’t understand why that is meaningfully different from PC games having sliders and toggles for graphical settings. 

 

The Series S specs present a potential challenge for AAA developers that want to fully embrace future tech and new workflows.

 

Let's use Lighting as an example.  Many devs are no doubt hard at work on Raytracing implementations for the quality and iteration benefits, but could hit a wall with the limited RAM and GPU of the Series S.  Yes, dropping resolutions to say 1080 or 720 would free up some resources for additional raycasts and BVH volumes (memory heavy aspect of Raytracing), but with the Series S's specs there is only so much to gain back.

 

Raytracing does not scale down quite as neatly as other graphical bells and whistles.  Low raycounts can lead to lighting flickering artifacts and a loss of quality.  Low BVH counts can lead to light leaking and other inacuracies.  A large  resolution drop is not necessarily going to cover these issues up.  I suspect we'll see developers either temporarily blur the hell out of Raytracing uses on the Series S or throw in the towel and determine they need a separate solution for this SKU.  And honestly quality-wise, lightmaps may be preferable to a very compromised Raytracing implementation.

 

Other future tech may have similar caveats on the Series S.  UE4's Nanite for example is going to rely on the GPU to help compute the display tessellation of assets.  How much overhead that needs is not known, but it will be an additional cost beyond drawing polygons.

 

 

Does all this technically hold the PS5/XSX back?  No, but it may have implications on what tech developers can rely on, especially with deadlines in the mix.  The recommendation from Microsoft is to target the Series X first, but it may not work out that way in practice for all AAA devs.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Because after a while (and @Xbob42 has said this a lot I believe) the "minimum" specs get moved up to the point where the minimum to run a game on a low end system outclass that system. So at launch XSS games will run fine with "the sliders turned down" but in 4 years it's not enough to turn those sliders down it won't be playable.

But that is the trade off that people going budget are making, that they will need to upgrade sooner than the person buying the more powerful unit. So that is a value proposition question for potential XSS owners, not a “how does this affect the high end” question which people seem to keep saying as though it’s a fact. When pressed for how, I still continue to see no actual answer. Seems the current gen and their refreshes should show that devs will simply leave the obsolete hardware with inferior versions. And again, that is more a question of value for XSS buyers as far as I can see from the responses.

[Keyser_Soze]

44 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

But that is the trade off that people going budget are making, that they will need to upgrade sooner than the person buying the more powerful unit. So that is a value proposition question for potential XSS owners, not a “how does this affect the high end” question which people seem to keep saying as though it’s a fact. When pressed for how, I still continue to see no actual answer. Seems the current gen and their refreshes should show that devs will simply leave the obsolete hardware with inferior versions. And again, that is more a question of value for XSS buyers as far as I can see from the responses.

 

Because if devs are still catering to the bottom the top can't get better.

 

In any case I think that @JPDunks4 or someone just said if that's the case then it can turn into an xcloud machine but still I think that's kind of hard to pull off because not everyone will be streaming so you still have to make it for the base users.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Because if devs are still catering to the bottom the top can't get better.

 

In any case I think that @JPDunks4 or someone just said if that's the case then it can turn into an xcloud machine but still I think that's kind of hard to pull off because not everyone will be streaming so you still have to make it for the base users.

Where is the evidence of this happening? What we’ve seen in the most high profile scenarios is that developers eventually move on from catering to the lower end. What games on the 1X or Pro are being substantively held back by the graphical limitations of the base models? I can think of titles that have the reverse, that were tuned towards the performance of the mid cycle refreshes to the detriment of the base consoles.

[Xbob42]

27 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Where is the evidence of this happening? What we’ve seen in the most high profile scenarios is that developers eventually move on from catering to the lower end. What games on the 1X or Pro are being substantively held back by the graphical limitations of the base models? I can think of titles that have the reverse, that were tuned towards the performance of the mid cycle refreshes to the detriment of the base consoles.

The evidence of this happening is devs 100% of the time catering to the lowest common denominator: whatever the specs of current gen consoles are.

[skillzdadirecta]

So we're just going to pretend that Nintendo doesn't exist and as long as they do and their consoles continue to sell as well as they do that THEY aren't the lowest common denominator? I mean third party games are selling on the Switch for the simple fact that folks want to be able to play games on the go, right? How many people have I seen on this very board rebuy games for the Switch for the portability? So if Nintendo is a viable platform and they continue to release systems that DON'T push tech forward, how are THEY exempt from "holding the generation back?" Last I checked MS was THIRD this gen behind Nintendo and Sony as far as Hardware sales go. Why the Series S is ALREADY being scapegoated for "holding the next gen back" when the next Nintendo system will almost CERTAINLY be the weakest powered console of the bunch but will be toom lucrative for devs to ignore is beyond me. And this is me following YOU guys' logic. 

 

Developers have always pushed tech regardless of what the LCD has been or at least that's what PC gamers have been telling me the last 15 years. The Series S is being released with a specific consumer in mind and that's not a lot of the folks that posters on this board... cool. But you guys seem to resent the fact that it even exists  and this is in spite of the fact that some devs are saying that it WON'T hold the generation back... ah gamer logic 

 

2 hours ago, sblfilms said:

Where is the evidence of this happening? What we’ve seen in the most high profile scenarios is that developers eventually move on from catering to the lower end. What games on the 1X or Pro are being substantively held back by the graphical limitations of the base models? I can think of titles that have the reverse, that were tuned towards the performance of the mid cycle refreshes to the detriment of the base consoles.

 

 Pretty much most of the games released in the last two years have been borderline unplayable on the base PS4 and Xbox consoles by the standards of the discerning connoisseuerss of D1P. Jedi Fallen Order and Control are two that spring to mind. 

[Keyser_Soze]

43 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

So we're just going to pretend that Nintendo doesn't exist

 

Just like always, yes.

Sure it gets ports but they can barely run them most of the time and that's usually by a different team long after it came out for other platforms.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

The evidence of this happening is devs 100% of the time catering to the lowest common denominator: whatever the specs of current gen consoles are.

Except they don’t. We’ve seen this especially clear with the mid cycle refreshes and some really poor performing titles on the base consoles the last couple of years. The poster child for this is Control.

[legend]

The world I'm crossing my fingers for is the one in which after a couple years MS let's devs either outright not support S or delay it's support while MS offers S upgrade paths to encourage people to get a better system. 

 

Otherwise this will just be limiting. It will drain developer resources and that always has a cost. Making a devs life harder is not a good thing. 

[crispy4000]

32 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Except they don’t. We’ve seen this especially clear with the mid cycle refreshes and some really poor performing titles on the base consoles the last couple of years. The poster child for this is Control.

And that’s the rub.  Xbox One S is getting poor looking and performing SKUs that either overshoot what the hardware is capable of, or just aren’t getting the needed optimization work to shine at whatever resolution and frame rate is targeted for it.  This has been happening since the X1X came out, and has gotten progressively worse.

 

There’s a marginal gap between the Xbox One S and the PS4.  Think about how much wider that gap is going to be with the Series S to whatever is above it.

 

It’s anyone’s guess how much that holds back developers’ plans versus them outright not giving a shit (like Crystal Dynamics most recently).  Or maybe Microsoft themselves pushes it along with a new S model mid generation.

 

Series S owners should really hope for a Switch successor that’s roughly as powerful.  Maybe that would encourage more optimization effort.
 

Sliding scales on PC won’t: They never alleviated the One S’s troubles.  Why would it salvage the Series S later on?