Television The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - Latest: Season 2 commences filming. Set catches fire.

[Brick]

My girlfriend is a huge Lord of the Rings nerd, but she isn't interested in this because it isn't canon. That's a shame. I was thinking we could watch it together. She loved the movies, but hated how far The Hobbit deviated from the book, and while she has no doubts the show will be enjoyable, it's glorified fan fiction in her eyes. Maybe she'll come around one day. 

[Fizzzzle]

4 minutes ago, Brick said:

My girlfriend is a huge Lord of the Rings nerd, but she isn't interested in this because it isn't canon. That's a shame. I was thinking we could watch it together. She loved the movies, but hated how far The Hobbit deviated from the book, and while she has no doubts the show will be enjoyable, it's glorified fan fiction in her eyes. Maybe she'll come around one day. 

I mean, it is basically expensive fan fiction, but still, any time we get some giant budget action fantasy series, I'll give it a go for that reason alone.

[Greatoneshere]

35 minutes ago, Brick said:

My girlfriend is a huge Lord of the Rings nerd, but she isn't interested in this because it isn't canon. That's a shame. I was thinking we could watch it together. She loved the movies, but hated how far The Hobbit deviated from the book, and while she has no doubts the show will be enjoyable, it's glorified fan fiction in her eyes. Maybe she'll come around one day. 

 

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Tolkien didn't write any real "novels" aside from The Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy. Yes, of course he wrote The Silmarillion (kind of), etc. but they aren't adaptable stories. Any adaptation of anything outside of The Hobbit and LOTR will, by default, be fan fiction because you're elaborating and fleshing out information that simply isn't there in the original work. In general, from what I understand, the show actually does a really great job (so far) of adapting what is basically implied happens during the Second Age (LOTR is the end of the Third Age). There is no way to write it just as written. If you could ask your girlfriend, how would one adapt such concepts and story ideas into a film or TV series that isn't "fan fiction"? You have to elaborate on broad strokes of story, right?

 

I also think that point of view doesn't make sense with The Hobbit. A fan can absolutely be annoyed or upset with the films (though I like them and enjoy the extended editions more, they make more sense and more time in Middle-Earth!), but any scene that isn't a direct adaptation of The Hobbit novel that are in The Hobbit films are, again, not "fan fiction". They elaborate on events implied in the novel. The shadow from the forest is the Necromancer/Sauron, characters were discussing it and doing things about it, etc. The Hobbit films simply show and expand on what was basically story that is canon. You can be annoyed at Radagast's appearance being too much, or that Jackson went with CG over practical effects for a lot of things that were practical in his LOTR films, or you can be annoyed he didn't just adapt The Hobbit. But given the Tolkien estate will never give up direct rights to The Silmarillion, etc.; this is the only time we'll ever see these events that certainly happened in the canon appear on film or TV. Let's be glad Jackson and the creators of this TV show are painting within canonical lines as much as fans should care about. They're sticking to what they have the rights too, so they are telling stories based on the appendices, etc. They could just as easily go: "fuck it, we'll just make up the backstory of LOTR since we can't use the canonical backstory" but instead they are taking the rights of what they do have canonically and elaborating on that instead, like Jackson did with the Hobbit films.

 

To be honest I don't care about canon nearly as much as I used to 10 years ago so long as the film or TV show doesn't break its own rules to the point of incredulity but I think from everything I've seen and read I would not consider the "additions" Jackson made or this TV show "fan fiction" because it's elaborating on vague canonical characters and events that I'm sure Tolkien would have very likely agreed with in broad strokes in terms of depiction.

 

TL;DR: what the showrunners themselves have said: "There's a version of everything we need for the Second Age in the books we have the rights to. As long as we're painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don't have the rights to, there's a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with."

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Brick said:

My girlfriend is a huge Lord of the Rings nerd, but she isn't interested in this because it isn't canon. That's a shame. I was thinking we could watch it together. She loved the movies, but hated how far The Hobbit deviated from the book, and while she has no doubts the show will be enjoyable, it's glorified fan fiction in her eyes. Maybe she'll come around one day. 

You have posted some things that make it seem like you ought to ditch this lady

[CitizenVectron]

Yeah, the canon complaint imo is absolute garbage. It's like saying you won't watch Avengers because it's not the exact same as a comic story so it's not canon. From all accounts, this series is really good and while it takes liberties to make the transition from paper (and a history, not novel) to video, critics (including Tolkien lore nuts) are saying that it stays true to the heart of Tolkien, and includes some deep-cut references. 

 

If the whole canon thing is an issue, then the LOTR trilogy can't be considered canonical either since it takes liberties for the sake of making watchable films.

[Firewithin]

oh i just saw that these should release at 6pm PST tonight!

[legend]

I also don't think "canon" is thing that should be worried about in this context. To me, the only time "canon" matters is if there is some larger fictional story that is actively being developed. In this stetting, canon can matter because it informs how future stories will unfold, what places characters are in and what they've learned. If you do fan fiction for the MCU, for example, it's kind of irrelevant because it will never have an impact on the actively developed storyline.

 

But the LOTR isn't some active story by Tolkien. There's nothing else in the future to be beholden to, and so it seems perfectly fine for a new group to spin up their own universe from it.

 

Now, I would understand if the show deviates in theme in ways that seem at odds with the theme of the source material and you don't like the new take. For example, I have no problem with the Foundation show doing different things. As much as I wish it; Asimov is not going to be continuing his stories so there's nothing to conflict with. But I do have some concerns that some of the themes they're taking seem at odds with the stories Asmiov told (although it's too early in the series to say that for sure). So if this show goes off the rails in that way, complain away. But we can't know that will be the case just because it's not in the original ancient canon.

[Brick]

2 hours ago, sblfilms said:

You have posted some things that make it seem like you ought to ditch this lady

 

Things? Plural!? 

[Firewithin]

It's beautiful 

 

[ort]

 

[CitizenVectron]

Only watched the first as my wife is too tired to continue, so we'll finish tomorrow. But I wanted to say that I love it. It's beautiful, the acting is great and the characters interesting...and I love the return of high fantasy and good vs evil.

[Mercury33]

12 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

Only watched the first as my wife is too tired to continue, so we'll finish tomorrow. But I wanted to say that I love it. It's beautiful, the acting is great and the characters interesting...and I love the return of high fantasy and good vs evil.

Lol my post could have been this verbatim. Even the wife too tired part haha. 
 

This show is absolutely stunning to watch and listen to. I love the way they added the quick sweep over the map so you have an idea where in Middle Earth they are. God I missed being in this world so much. 

[Fizzzzle]

Oh hell yeah you soggy shit bags, let's fucking get it

 

I'm far more pumped for this than I thought I would be like 3 weeks ago.

[CitizenVectron]

It's being review bombed for exactly the reasons you'd expect (strong female lead, non-white people playing elves and dwarves and harfoots, etc):

 

[Keyser_Soze]

14 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

It's being review bombed for exactly the reasons you'd expect (strong female lead, non-white people playing elves and dwarves and harfoots, etc):

 

What's the bot phrase for this one?

[CitizenVectron]

Just now, Keyser_Soze said:

 

What's the bot phrase for this one?

 

Probably something about shitting on Tolkien's wishes or something, and SJW woke culture ruining another great European fantasy.

[Keyser_Soze]

9 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

Probably something about shitting on Tolkien's wishes or something, and SJW woke culture ruining another great European fantasy.

 

Looking at RT and IMDB seems to say, "Hollow and souless" a lot and you're right on the Tolkien thing, Tolkien purists along with wanting to shit on Amazon.

[CitizenVectron]

24 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Looking at RT and IMDB seems to say, "Hollow and souless" a lot and you're right on the Tolkien thing, Tolkien purists along with wanting to shit on Amazon.

 

The dumb thing about invoking Tolkien is that he didn't even tell this specific story, he effectively gave an outline. If he said something like "And lo, the dwarves marched across the mountains until meeting Sauron on the plains of E'elpinaur," then these chuds would complain if the show had them stop at an inn along the way. 'Ugh, did you see that the inn was there? Tolkien didn't mention an inn, he just said mountains! And there's no way a woman could own an inn in those mountains, it would be too difficult."

 

And I've only seen the first episode, but...this show is not soulless. I mean, look at those fucking Harfoot, they are full of character and love and emotion!

[Mercury33]

I’m not ultra familiar with Tolkiens world beyond the main books. What’s wrong with Harfoot? 
 

Also to say this show is soulless??? I haven’t gotten such amazing pure fantasy vibes like you get from the Harfoots since the 80’s. Every time they’re on screen it just screams Willow/Legend vibes. I fucking love this show 

[Guest]

Can we just not give voice to a bunch of losers who don’t even post here? 

[Fizzzzle]

2 hours ago, Mercury33 said:

I’m not ultra familiar with Tolkiens world beyond the main books. What’s wrong with Harfoot? 
 

Also to say this show is soulless??? I haven’t gotten such amazing pure fantasy vibes like you get from the Harfoots since the 80’s. Every time they’re on screen it just screams Willow/Legend vibes. I fucking love this show 

The "problem" with Harfoots is that they were proto-hobbits (along with Stoors and Fallohides), and Tolkien says Hobbits don't enter the record until the Third Age. The Shire doesn't exist until something like year 1600 of the Third Age (the movies take place around year 3000 of the Third Age)

 

But like... here's the thing. Damn near everything Tolkien ever wrote about the Second Age could fit in like one single chapter of a book. There really isn't a way to adapt it to fill a narrative with a beginning, middle, and end, without inventing a bunch of shit. And honestly, from a world building perspective, proto-Hobbits probably were kicking about in the Second Age, but it would have been before anyone noticed them. They point this out in the first episode. Tolkien says of Hobbits that they can basically become invisible to Men if they want to. The men of Rohan came up with the word for them ("holbytla"), and thought of them the same way we think of like leprechauns or whatever.

 

So yeah, anything the show does is blasphemous unless it's something Tolkien specifically wrote, the problem being he barely wrote anything about the story they're trying to adapt.

[Fizzzzle]

Also, can we talk about how fucking sick the Orc designs are? They look fucking scary. And I love how they're incorporating more of how Orcs can't move in sunlight. The movies got around this by just basically only showing Orcs at night (except for the Uruk-Hai, who can move during the day)

[Mercury33]

So Proto Hobbits are fore runners to them or just a slightly different race? Does Sméagol fall into that or was he just a hobbit from a different region than the shire?

 

And the “hobbits” are literally my favorite thing in the show so fuck anyone that hates them haha

[Fizzzzle]

5 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

So Proto Hobbits are fore runners to them or just a slightly different race? Does Sméagol fall into that or was he just a hobbit from a different region than the shire?

 

And the “hobbits” are literally my favorite thing in the show so fuck anyone that hates them haha

fore runners to them. They never outright say Smeagol was a Hobbit, they say "he was not so different from a Hobbit" or whatever.

 

You can think of them as basically the same, though.

[Fizzzzle]

ALSO ALSO, you'll see a lot of people complain about how Galadriel isn't "how Tolkien described her."

 

Tolkien said very little of Galadriel before the third age. Like, literally only a few sentences. So that's kind of bullshit from a lore perspective. But also, from a storytelling perspective, what do you have when a main character of your story ends in the exact place they begin? That's right, a shitty fucking story. I have no doubt that Galadriel will end in a place more reminiscent of how she appears in the movies. Same with Elrond.

 

"bUt GaLaDrIeL iSn'T BrAsH" - bro, she might have been at some point. Lord of the Rings takes place like... 5,000 years after the start of the show? Canonically, anyway, they're compressing the timeline a lot.

[CayceG]

I'm tearing up at the most benign scenes. The music. The scenery. The performances. There's something they've captured with this (esp. in the first ep) that is exactly what Tolkien showed.

There isn't any other way I can describe this... This show is magic.

 

 

The show is very VERY good. I don't care one bit about the criticisms. They are irrelevant. 

[Mercury33]

Ok last question 

 

So Morgoth basically “bombed” the elves? That’s why they went to Middle Earth? Because he basically attacked them from there? And something I never considered but my wife asked, why did they not just go back home when they considered the threat over. I kinda assumed they knew the threat wasn’t really over and that they felt responsible for middle earth so they stayed to watch over it? That’s why they’re leaving in LotR because Men are ready to watch over it?

[Greatoneshere]

51 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

ALSO ALSO, you'll see a lot of people complain about how Galadriel isn't "how Tolkien described her."

 

Tolkien said very little of Galadriel before the third age. Like, literally only a few sentences. So that's kind of bullshit from a lore perspective. But also, from a storytelling perspective, what do you have when a main character of your story ends in the exact place they begin? That's right, a shitty fucking story. I have no doubt that Galadriel will end in a place more reminiscent of how she appears in the movies. Same with Elrond.

 

"bUt GaLaDrIeL iSn'T BrAsH" - bro, she might have been at some point. Lord of the Rings takes place like... 5,000 years after the start of the show? Canonically, anyway, they're compressing the timeline a lot.

 

In fact, places like Polygon have argued the opposite - that all the canonical texts hint at pretty much exactly the portrayal on screen.

 

Galadriel’s untold story comes to life in The Rings of Power

WWW.POLYGON.COM

---

Actor Morfydd Clark rose to the challenge of finding new dimension in the elven queen

 

[number305]

23 hours ago, legend said:

I also don't think "canon" is thing that should be worried about in this context. To me, the only time "canon" matters is if there is some larger fictional story that is actively being developed. In this stetting, canon can matter because it informs how future stories will unfold, what places characters are in and what they've learned. If you do fan fiction for the MCU, for example, it's kind of irrelevant because it will never have an impact on the actively developed storyline.

 

But the LOTR isn't some active story by Tolkien. There's nothing else in the future to be beholden to, and so it seems perfectly fine for a new group to spin up their own universe from it.

 

Now, I would understand if the show deviates in theme in ways that seem at odds with the theme of the source material and you don't like the new take. For example, I have no problem with the Foundation show doing different things. As much as I wish it; Asimov is not going to be continuing his stories so there's nothing to conflict with. But I do have some concerns that some of the themes they're taking seem at odds with the stories Asmiov told (although it's too early in the series to say that for sure). So if this show goes off the rails in that way, complain away. But we can't know that will be the case just because it's not in the original ancient canon.

 

I saw Lee Child (author of the Jack Reacher books) speak once and this topic came up.  His take was that the books are separate and safe from any other media that is created.  If you love the books - nothing that is done on screen detracts from them.  You can keep reading them forever and they won't have changed.  He knew the movies that they made (this was before the series) were disliked by many of his book lovers, and he was pretty up front that he really enjoyed the money that he got from them... 

[gamer.tv]

Two episodes watched, two episodes loved.

[Mercury33]

Watched the second episode. I legit teared up when they go to Moria actually getting to see it depicted in its prime!

[legend]

I like it! Will watch more!

[Moa]

 

[Massdriver]

You all are giving me hope that this is good! I probably won’t get around to it until I get back from a trip. 

[Spork3245]

On 9/1/2022 at 2:05 PM, Brick said:

My girlfriend is a huge Lord of the Rings nerd, but she isn't interested in this because it isn't canon. That's a shame. I was thinking we could watch it together. She loved the movies, but hated how far The Hobbit deviated from the book, and while she has no doubts the show will be enjoyable, it's glorified fan fiction in her eyes. Maybe she'll come around one day. 

I think the idea of “this isn’t cannon!” Is a weird one, and this is coming from someone who hated many of the deviations of the LotR books in the movies (mainly the Ents and Faramir; the Ents march to war, the “last march of the Ents”, was one of my favorite parts in The Two Towers book), and anytime an anime does something that’s not in the manga I often skip it unless the manga creator was involved. This is something that is taking place long before The Hobbit or LotR, it’s following the lore laid out by Tolkien to create a new story. The only way I’d be bugged is if this does things that attempt to retcon or change The Hobbit/LotR. As long as it’s not doing things like making Shelob a pretty lady that turns into a spider because reasons (looking at you Shadow of War), then I’m looking forward to watching it, as the world of Middle-Earth is one worth exploring IMO