Television The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - Latest: Season 2 commences filming. Set catches fire.

[Fizzzzle]

21 minutes ago, Brick said:

So I take it wizards are not just humans who know magic lol. 

Nope. They're basically like Middle-earth angels, just like Sauron.

[Greatoneshere]

26 minutes ago, Brick said:

So I take it wizards are not just humans who know magic lol. 

 

Correct! I'll put it in as a spoiler just in case:

 

Spoiler

The 5 wizards or "Istari" of Middle-Earth, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, and the two Blue Wizards, are all "Maiar", beings created to work under the "Valar", who are basically powerful beings/angels to Eru Illuvatar, who is basically LOTR's God. Maiar are basically a step below the Valar, created by Eru Illuvatar to help the Valar shape the known universe that Eru Illuvatar created. Morgoth, Sauron's boss, was a Valar (basically, he's Lucifer to Illuvatar's God), Sauron was a Maiar (and a good one, before Morgoth corrupts him), and the five wizards on Middle-Earth are 5 Maiar spirits brought from the ethereal planes by Illuvatar to help the races of Arda (the planet where Middle-Earth resides). There's a great quote in the LOTR films where Gandalf basically says "there are forces out there, not just evil ones, but good ones, to help the good guys out too" and he's referring to Illuvatar I think, because Illuvatar intentionally sent the wizards to help out against Sauron, etc.

 

[Captain Pickle]

32 minutes ago, Brick said:

So I take it wizards are not just humans who know magic lol. 

Who knew, right?

[Captain Pickle]

49 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

Nope. They're basically like Middle-earth angels, just like Sauron.

I thought Sauron was elf like. Da fuq

[Spork3245]

37 minutes ago, Captain Pickle said:

I thought Sauron was elf like. Da fuq

 

No, he can disguise himself into other forms. His "fair form" is elf-like in appearance, though.

[Greatoneshere]

49 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

No, he can disguise himself into other forms. His "fair form" is elf-like in appearance, though.

 

Which I suspect we'll be seeing soon with Celebrimbor given Sauron/Adar's real self has shown up again now.

[Mercury33]

I was also under the impression Sauron was some kind of Elf that Morgoth corrupted. If I remember right Morgoth is imprisoned correct? He’s not actually dead? 
 

Totally random side note but I really hope this show travels to the “good” side of Mordor. Where all the food and stuff comes from. I’ve always found that aspect fascinating and it so rarely gets talked about.  

[Spork3245]

42 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

I was also under the impression Sauron was some kind of Elf that Morgoth corrupted.

 

He’s the same type of being as Gandalf, a Maiar, which are essentially angels and serve the Valar. The Balrogs are also Maiar, but corrupted by Melkor/Morgoth iirc. Sauron turned willingly.
 

42 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

If I remember right Morgoth is imprisoned correct? He’s not actually dead? 
 

Correct, he’s imprisoned as he can’t actually be killed since he’s a Valar (the most powerful Valar as well, which are like gods). He’s trapped in what’s essentially a void/purgatory.

So, there’s a single being that is essentially “god” who can create life (Eru Illuvatar). He gave the Ainur, which were primordial spirits, form and the 14 most powerful of them became the Valar (gods), the weaker ones became Maiar who serve under each Valar and would be equivocal to angels.

[best3444]

3 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Correct! I'll put it in as a spoiler just in case:

 

  Hide contents

The 5 wizards or "Istari" of Middle-Earth, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, and the two Blue Wizards, are all "Maiar", beings created to work under the "Valar", who are basically powerful beings/angels to Eru Illuvatar, who is basically LOTR's God. Maiar are basically a step below the Valar, created by Eru Illuvatar to help the Valar shape the known universe that Eru Illuvatar created. Morgoth, Sauron's boss, was a Valar (basically, he's Lucifer to Illuvatar's God), Sauron was a Maiar (and a good one, before Morgoth corrupts him), and the five wizards on Middle-Earth are 5 Maiar spirits brought from the ethereal planes by Illuvatar to help the races of Arda (the planet where Middle-Earth resides). There's a great quote in the LOTR films where Gandalf basically says "there are forces out there, not just evil ones, but good ones, to help the good guys out too" and he's referring to Illuvatar I think, because Illuvatar intentionally sent the wizards to help out against Sauron, etc.

 

 

Holy shit. 

[TheLeon]

Threads like this remind me that I’m a low level nerd. 

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

 

He’s the same type of being as Gandalf, a Maiar, which are essentially angels and serve the Valar. The Balrogs are also Maiar, but corrupted by Melkor/Morgoth iirc. Sauron turned willingly.
 

Correct, he’s imprisoned as he can’t actually be killed since he’s a Valar (the most powerful Valar as well, which are like gods). He’s trapped in what’s essentially a void/purgatory.

So, there’s a single being that is essentially “god” who can create life (Eru Illuvatar). He gave the Ainur, which were primordial spirits, form and the 14 most powerful of them became the Valar (gods), the weaker ones became Maiar who serve under each Valar and would be equivocal to angels.

 

Spork nailed it. An additional note for people reading this thread to add is that only Illuvatar can create life and give it sentience, the Valar and Maiar (collectively the Ainur) can't. This was Morgoth's biggest frustration/problem (Orcs and Goblins, etc. are corruptions by Morgoth, he didn't "create" them). The only time anyone got even close to creating life is Aule (he shaped the Dwarves, but Illuvatar gave them sentience). Interestingly, Aule is a Valar, and one of his Maiar was . . . Mairon, aka Sauron. As Spork said, Sauron chose to serve Morgoth willingly, believing Morgoth could help Sauron fulfill his purpose quicker and more directly. The problem was Sauron's purpose (given to him by Illuvatar) was his love of order and perfection and hated all things wasteful. He basically believed that, like Loki in The Avengers and many other villains, that all races needed to be ruled under him since he knew better. He would make everything perfect, and he felt Morgoth could help him to this end. Sauron's Valar Aule has already been mentioned by The Stranger in the show, and Aule was the master smith of the Valar, hence why Sauron can forge such powerful rings (and how he knows how to) - he literally worked under the best in the universe, as Sauron was a smith under Aule.

[Brick]

23 hours ago, SimpleG said:

Good episode other then Galadriel not explaining to the Queen what's happening, instead she acted like a horses ass

 

That's always a major pet peeve of mine in fiction when a character is being unnecessarily hostile. 

[Greatoneshere]

16 minutes ago, Brick said:

 

That's always a major pet peeve of mine in fiction when a character is being unnecessarily hostile. 

 

Same. Halbrand literally warned her right beforehand too.

[Mercury33]

On the topic of creation, this is something im probably just not remembering from the books but I just rewatched the movies…the Uruk-kai, Sauramon doesn’t create them(as you guys just stated wasn’t possible) but I think I always thought he did. So were they just hibernating or something? When they got cut out of those sacs?

[Brick]

On 9/12/2022 at 8:21 PM, Greatoneshere said:

 

Same. Halbrand literally warned her right beforehand too.

 

I feel like it's the writers trying to write a strong female character, "See, she has attitude, and isn't going to let anyone tell her what to do", when really she's just coming off as a bitch. They literally saved her from being lost at sea, and she's all "Fuck you, give me a boat". How about being polite, showing gratitude for them saving your life, and explaining why you need to get back to the mainland because there is evil afoot. That would be the smart thing to do. Then you can act annoyed, and hostile if the queen is like, "yeah no we don't trust elves, so you're not allowed to leave" for no reason, but you being antagonistic kind of gives her a reason not to do anything you "demand". 

[Greatoneshere]

12 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

On the topic of creation, this is something im probably just not remembering from the books but I just rewatched the movies…the Uruk-kai, Sauramon doesn’t create them(as you guys just stated wasn’t possible) but I think I always thought he did. So were they just hibernating or something? When they got cut out of those sacs?

 

This is a fair question because the movies confuse the issue a bit. The film lore book however clears it up thankfully and says Saruman is only copying Sauron's methods. But in terms of "creating", Saruman isn't creating new life, he's cross breeding different races (orcs and "goblin men" in this case, without either's weaknesses like sunlight). For instance, you can cross breed horses and cross breed dogs, but you aren't "creating" life, you're simply mixing and matching what already exists, if that makes sense. 

 

12 minutes ago, Brick said:

 

I feel like it's the writers trying to write a strong female character, "See, she has attitude, and isn't going to let anyone tell her what to do", when really she's just coming off as a bitch. They literally saved her from being lost at sea, and she's all "Fuck you, give me a boat". How about being polite, showing gratitude for them saving your life, and explaining why you need to get back to the mainland because there is evil afoot. That would be the smart thing to do. Then you can act annoyed, and hostile if the queen is like, "yeah no we don't trust elves, so you're not allowed to leave" for no reason, but you being antagonistic kind of gives her a reason to do anything you "demand". 

 

 

Agreed. I mean, you could argue that Galadriel is an extremely standoff-ish character because in her mind she is burdened with "great purpose" and they've established repeatedly that, unlike Elrond, Galadriel doesn't know how to be diplomatic (something she learns a little of over the centuries). In this scene though it seemed overdone, like having her behave that way is more frustrating than smart and you'd think even Galadriel would know better. 

[Brick]

15 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

For instance, you can cross breed horses and cross breed dogs

 

For a second I thought you meant together, and I was going to say, you can do what now? 

 

 

[Greatoneshere]

48 minutes ago, Brick said:

 

For a second I thought you meant together, and I was going to say, you can do what now? 

 

 

 

To be fair this is more accurate to what Sauron and Saruman are doing between orcs and men.  

[Spork3245]

6 hours ago, Mercury33 said:

On the topic of creation, this is something im probably just not remembering from the books but I just rewatched the movies…the Uruk-kai, Sauramon doesn’t create them(as you guys just stated wasn’t possible) but I think I always thought he did. So were they just hibernating or something? When they got cut out of those sacs?

Just to expand on what @Greatoneshere posted…

Melkor/Morgoth “created” orcs by corrupting a group/tribe of elves. They were made to essentially mock Eru Illuvatar, as were all of the beings Morgoth corrupted and changed with his corruption. Trolls are a little more tricky as I don’t believe it’s ever stated what they originally were, however Treebeard believes that Trolls are a mockery of Ents, in same way that Orcs are a mockery of Elves (but I don’t think Trolls are corrupted Ents). Over the ages, there were different breeds/tribes of Orcs and Trolls. The Uruk-Hai were created by Sauron (not Saruman like the movies claimed, however Saruman used them as well); I don’t know if it was through selective breeding or simply via his magics that they were created/changed, though. Uruk-Hai are resistant to sunlight (the show has done a great job of showing how sunlight weakens Orcs and causes them discomfort), and are generally bigger and stronger than most other Orcs and Goblins. In the late third age, Olog-Hai also appeared, and were Trolls that were resistant to sunlight (most other Trolls turn to stone in sunlight) and seemed to be more intelligent than other types.

Also, just to muddy the waters, while Eru Illuvatar is the only being in LotR that can create/give life to new beings, sometimes “powers” of the universe can take shape into corporeal form. Ungoliant, the mother of Shelob, wasn’t a being corrupted by Melkor/Morgoth nor created by Eru Illuvatar, but is believed to be the darkness of Arda (the world) that embodied itself as a being. Tom Bombadil is another being that exists but doesn’t seem to have been created by Eru Illuvatar - the running theory is that Bombadil, like Ungoliant, is the corporeal form of “powers” of the universe that inadvertently formed during creation of the world: in Bombadil’s case, the corporeal form of the Music/Songs of the Ainur (the Ainur are the primordial spirits that Eru Illuvatar gave a form to who became the gods and angels of the world). This explains both of their immense powers and assumes it’s tied to how strong the light or darkness is. Ungoliant turned on Morgoth at one point iirc, and nearly killed him - Morgoth was saved by his Balrogs. The one ring did not affect Bombadil, and he could even make it disappear.

[Brick]

Y'all need Jesus to touch grass. 

[Spork3245]

8 minutes ago, Brick said:

Y'all need Jesus to touch grass. 

I’m engaged and getting married next month.

Spoiler

To yo momma

Spoiler

Spoiler

PS: ILU 

 

 

Seriously, though, I just enjoy the world of ME/LotR. I haven’t really looked at it in over 15 years, but this show reignited my interest so I dove back in  

[Mercury33]

This thread is great and way easier to digest than the LotR wiki’s haha. 
 

Ok so this is super nerdy and picky but if Uruk-Hai are crossbreeds of Orcs and Goblins, how come they’re so much bigger? Obviously that’s me injecting our science into a fantasy world haha but I’m just curious if there’s an actual reason or just “go with it”

 

So where is Ungoliant now? Is she basically like Tom in that she just exists in some tucked away corner and doesn’t have any concern for anything actually going on outside of that corner because of her immense power and immortality? Kinda thinking a more extreme version of Elrond missing Durian’s life becasue time is different for Elves. Then time must be even more inconsequential for pseudo gods. Tom and Ungoliant are basically like the Endless?

[Greatoneshere]

3 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

Seriously, though, I just enjoy the world of ME/LotR. I haven’t really looked at it in over 15 years, but this show reignited my interest so I dove back in  

 

This is basically me. I haven't gone in deep with LOTR lore since I was a teenager, it's been fun to go back to the OG fantasy lore.

 

2 hours ago, Mercury33 said:

This thread is great and way easier to digest than the LotR wiki’s haha. 
 

Ok so this is super nerdy and picky but if Uruk-Hai are crossbreeds of Orcs and Goblins, how come they’re so much bigger? Obviously that’s me injecting our science into a fantasy world haha but I’m just curious if there’s an actual reason or just “go with it”

 

So where is Ungoliant now? Is she basically like Tom in that she just exists in some tucked away corner and doesn’t have any concern for anything actually going on outside of that corner because of her immense power and immortality? Kinda thinking a more extreme version of Elrond missing Durian’s life becasue time is different for Elves. Then time must be even more inconsequential for pseudo gods. Tom and Ungoliant are basically like the Endless?

 

@Spork3245 nailed a lot of it really well. He's right about Ungoliant and Bombadil, who are strange creations of Arda. As to your first question, this is entirely speculation on my part, but in the books Sauron and later Saruman are combining orcs and men, not orcs and "goblin men" as the movie puts it. I assume they are bigger because orcs are a corruption of elves, who tend to be tall but more slender and thinner - you see that with the orcs in this show. When you add Men to the mix, you're getting the taller, stockier, more muscular builds of Men into the Elf cross mix, which would make them much bigger would be my guess. 

 

As to your second question, Ungoliant was finally driven off by the Balrogs after they came to save Morgoth from her. She fled to an area where she mated with a bunch of Great Spiders (one of which would end up being Shelob). According to the Silmarillion, Ungoliant in their ever growing hungry eventually devoured itself. That was Ungoliant's big thing, was a hunger that could never be sated and kept growing larger. Ungoliant's power would grow every time they fed, and Ungoliant could even eat things like powerful rings, gems, etc. to become even more powerful, which is what her deal with Morgoth was all about. Eventually Ungoliant asks for the Silmarils to eat and that was a bridge too far for Morgoth, hence Ungoliant's betrayal, they wanted the Silmarils. So Ungoliant is dead, basically a representation of the sin of gluttony if that's an easier way to think of it.

 

As for Bombadil, he is one of the most enigmatic and mysterious characters in LOTR lore. Bombadil is still doing just fine into the Fourth Age and seems as neutral (like Switzerland) towards everything as ever, despite their immense power. So they aren't like Endless since Ungoliant is dead, but they are incredibly powerful beings that aren't Valar/Maiar whose creations aren't exactly explained, though I think Spork has the best explanation.

[Mercury33]

Awesome, thank you!

[Spork3245]

13 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

As for Bombadil, he is one of the most enigmatic and mysterious characters in LOTR lore. Bombadil is still doing just fine into the Fourth Age and seems as neutral (like Switzerland) towards everything as ever, despite their immense power. So they aren't like Endless since Ungoliant is dead, but they are incredibly powerful beings that aren't Valar/Maiar whose creations aren't exactly explained, though I think Spork has the best explanation.

 

Yea, there's no exact explanation for Bombadil especially. What I posted is the most commonly held belief of his origin. Some seem to think he could be a Valar, but the ones to choose from don't make sense and it's believed that Gandalf would be able to recognize him, other even believe that he's Eru Illuvatar himself, however, it was stated that if Sauron regained his ring and won that even Bombadil would eventually succumb, so if he were Eru Illuvatar that wouldn't be possible.

[Jason]

4 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

I’m engaged and getting married next month.

 

 

[Spork3245]

17 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

 

 

Why are you posting selfies?

[MarSolo]

So… which Wizard fell out of the sky? Also, I’m assuming this is all taking place before ANY of the rings got made?

 

I have so many questions, but in a good way. I love this shit!

[Spork3245]

4 minutes ago, MarSolo said:

So… which Wizard fell out of the sky? Also, I’m assuming this is all taking place before ANY of the rings got made?

 

I have so many questions, but in a good way. I love this shit!

Yes, this show takes place during the time the rings were forged. The project Elrond went to the dwarves about was building the forge. We’ve all been debating on which wizard fell from the sky, but probably one of the blue wizards or possibly Gandalf if the show runners are trying to get a known/loved character in there for movie fans.  

[Brick]

Is falling from the sky how wizards are "born"? I thought maybe he's a character that something happened, got sent flying across the world, and wiped his memories, but given that wizards are not mortal men, now I'm thinking this is just how he came to be.

[Spork3245]

22 minutes ago, Brick said:

Is falling from the sky how wizards are "born"? I thought maybe he's a character that something happened, got sent flying across the world, and wiped his memories, but given that wizards are not mortal men, now I'm thinking this is just how he came to be.

The wizards are essentially angels given corporeal form and disguised as human-like beings. They’re falling from ethereal world/essentially heaven.

[Bitgod]

I'm just a shrug LOTR fan, it's ok.  So I'm surprised how much I like RoP.  Maybe it's just more digestible when not having to watch 3 hours at a time.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

"Acting like a horse's ass" genuinely appears to be the defining characteristic of Galadriel's personality so far and it really kinda sucks because not only is it off-putting but it's borderline sexist.

[Brick]

3 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

"Acting like a horse's ass" genuinely appears to be the defining characteristic of Galadriel's personality so far and it really kinda sucks because not only is it off-putting but it's borderline sexist.

 

It's become such a tiresome trope for female characters. I hope it changes soon. 

[Fizzzzle]

3 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

"Acting like a horse's ass" genuinely appears to be the defining characteristic of Galadriel's personality so far and it really kinda sucks because not only is it off-putting but it's borderline sexist.

This is my biggest problem with Galadriel's storyline so far, and why it's so boring.

 

On the one hand, she is (as the show tells it): Princess of the Noldor, of the house of Fingolfin, from Valinor, Hero of the First Age in the wars against Morgoth, General of the Northern Armies, able to slay a Troll with one hand, a leader amongst Elves, a renowned hero.

 

On the other hand, EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER TALKS DOWN TO HER, LITERALLY AND FIGURATIVELY. And she, in return, acts like a petulant teenager. Even Gil-Galad, and I remind you that she is far, far older than Gil-Galad. Homeboy has never even seen Valinor. Nor has Elrond.

 

I get that she needs to have a character arc, but her whole character just feels so forced and stupid.

 

My favorite characters so far are honestly the made up ones.