Television The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - Latest: Season 2 commences filming. Set catches fire.

[Greatoneshere]

7 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

I really keep going back and forth as one of the Blue Wizards make a lot of sense too, if only because there's basically nothing known about either one of them besides some basics, so they'd be more of a clean slate for the show to write.

 

I like the idea of either/or, but using one of the blue wizards would be cool and expand the mythology, as we already got Radagast in The Hobbit, but at the same time, it'd be cool to tie this into that as a throughline as well. The show has done a good job balancing new with fan service and my wife particularly enjoys seeing young Galadriel, young Elrond, etc. and she likes the idea of a young Radagast (she likes the idea of one of the blue wizards too but she's a fan of the Hobbit and LOTR movies as opposed to the books which I don't believe she's read, maybe The Hobbit). 

[stepee]

man if you are upset about there being brown elves in LOTR you are not only a backwards ass bigot but you are just officially a fucking LOSER my goodness

[Fizzzzle]

I don't think it really makes sense for the Stranger to be Sauron, but we'll see.

 

His magic definitely seems to be evil, in my opinion. The fire he controls isn't hot, the way he controls the fireflies results in all of them dying

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, stepee said:

man if you are upset about there being brown elves in LOTR you are not only a backwards ass bigot but you are just officially a fucking LOSER my goodness

 

They were probably big fans of the fact that in Jackson's LOTR movies, the primary army of Men that fight for Sauron are clearly characterized as Middle Eastern/South Asian in look and culture, etc. (this is in Return of the King). The only saving grace is I guess Jackson kept in the redneck white people that basically attack and cause havoc on Saruman's behalf as well.

 

This show is clearly connecting the white people who fight for Saruman in LOTR to the human followers of Morgoth and now Sauron in the show. But yeah, very conspicuous that all the good guys in LOTR are white and the brown dudes in black clothing with elephants are the villains. It's one of the few things that really sticks out to me about the movies. Times, thankfully, change and it's amazing to me the bigots are still complaining. The show is out, move on.

[Fizzzzle]

1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

They were probably big fans of the fact that in Jackson's LOTR movies, the primary army of Men that fight for Sauron are clearly characterized as Middle Eastern/South Asian in look and culture, etc. (this is in Return of the King). The only saving grace is I guess Jackson kept in the redneck white people that basically attack and cause havoc on Saruman's behalf as well.

 

This show is clearly connecting the white people who fight for Saruman in LOTR to the human followers of Morgoth and now Sauron in the show. But yeah, very conspicuous that all the good guys in LOTR are white and the brown dudes in black clothing with elephants are the villains. It's one of the few things that really sticks out to me about the movies. Times, thankfully, change and it's amazing to me the bigots are still complaining. The show is out, move on.

That's something that really bugs me about the people complaining about how it's not faithful to the source material. Despite the fact that I think whether it's faithful or not is debatable, what if that part of the source material is just kind of fucked and we... shouldn't do it?

 

Maybe we have just reached a point where a story that takes place in a FANTASY WORLD THAT DOESN'T EXIST IN REALITY shouldn't have all the good guys be white and all the bad guys be non-white or Orcs? And that's not to reflect on Tolkien's work at all, no one is saying that his work is implicitly racist****, but we do have to acknowledge the times we live in, and the fact that action movies/TV have been the purview of white males and their power fantasies for basically... forever.

 

Okay, so it might break a little bit of lore. But keeping that part of lore could be even worse.

 

 

**** I know I've gone on this rant before, so I'll leave it in spoilers, but it has to do with implicit/explicit character definition in Tolkien's works

Spoiler

So, Tolkien, rather infamously, is pretty scarce on physical descriptions of his characters. We're most familiar with Elves being depicted as having pointy ears, but Tolkien never actually explicitly states that in the text. There is one line from the opening of the Hobbit that says Hobbits have "leaf-shaped ears that are elfish." It's debated whether that means "Elves" (spelled differently) actually do have leaf-shaped ears, as well, or if he meant a more colloquial definition of "elf" (think the Kiebler elves). However, every depiction of Elves in media after that basically just ran with it, and it works. Without the pointy ears, it would be hard for us, the audience, to be able to tell the difference on screen. Tolkien's works seem to imply that the differences between Elves and Men are found more in the voice and the eyes, if not a general "aura" (Noldorin Elves who came from Valinor all seem to have this mysical aura about them, which mortals can pick up on immediately). He doesn't really go beyond that.

 

When it comes to specific characters, Tolkien is also scarce in detail. He never mentions Legolas' hair color, for example. His hair would most likely be black or silver, in my opinion, not golden, as depicted in the movies. 

 

Then, you come to Orcs. Orcs are never really given much description, other than that they're "sallow-skinned," which just means skin that has lost its complexion. They are grey, and probably pale. This is one case where the show (so far) is actually far more accurate than the Peter Jackson movies were. The Jackson movies definitely depicted them as dark-skinned, for the most part.

 

Now, for the Dwarves. Other than their heights and their beards, Tolkien never once gives a physical description of a Dwarf. Not their hair color, not their skin color, nothing (he does mention that Thorin has a white beard, but that's from age. Making Thorin younger in the movies was a creative decision, he's kind of old in the book). For all we know, all Dwarves are Asians.

 

What about Men? Well, certainly, the men of Numenor and their descendants are broadly categorized as white. Some of the Rohirrim, as well. However, those groups make up a small percentage of the Men of Middle-earth. The Numenorians were basically colonizers, and by the time of Lord of the Rings, there aren't that many of them left. Tolkien never really gives much in the way of descriptors of the "middle-men" as he calls them, but those would be the people that made up the majority of the population of places like Gondor, Harad, Rhun, and Dunland. They weren't Numenoreans, but the Men the Numenoreans colonized.

 

 

*ticks off boxes* where does that leave us now? We could certainly say that Numenorean Men, broadly speaking, were white in Tolkien's world. Probably most if not all Elves, too. For everyone else.... it's left up to us to interpret. Certainly, he uses the word "swarthy" to describe some Men, and I believe some Hobbits, as well, so you can definitely say not all Men and Hobbits were white.

 

Now that we have gone through the explicit physical characteristics of characters, what about *implicit* characteristics? This is something you'll hear a lot if you like to troll alt-right corners of the internet looking to pick fights, like I do when I'm feeling particularly drunk or bored. The idea here is that Tolkien created the world of Arda specifically because he wanted to create his own Anglo-Saxon mythology. He despised the "frenchification" of the English language (Rohirric is basically just Old English), he loved the Anglo Saxon chronicles, and he wanted a quintessentially British mythology. That is all true, however, Tolkien also famously hated allegory and never wanted his works to be treated as such, so in my mind that kind of throws the whole point at the window, but whatever.

 

The point here is that because his works were *intended* to be an Anglo-Saxon mythology, that all of the characters should be Anglo Saxon.

 

This is where I say... if you think that, despite that Tolkien never said that himself, despite everything that I already laid out, despite the fact that this is a fantasy world that is NOT, in fact, based in reality... this is where I say:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the thing. It's a work of fiction. It's a work of art. Once a work of art is released into the world, the world owns it, and it will morph and change with the times. Again, no one is saying that Tolkien's original work was racist, implicitly or explicitly (well, maybe some people do, but they're reaching for things to be mad about and you should ignore them). However, art does not exist in a vacuum, it exists in our real world. Tolkien wrote his stories in the early 20th century, and the world has changed a lot since then. The Cold War, the Vietnam War, the Afghan Wars, the end of traditional colonization, the War on Terror - these are all things that happened after Tolkien published Lord of the Rings, and we can't just ignore that. The fact is there are millions of people who live in Britain now who are people of color, and a lot of those people live there BECAUSE of British colonization in places like Jamaica, South Asia, Malaysia, and Africa. Doesn't it seem, just a little bit, that saying "All of the good guys have to be white" in a fantasy world that is loosely based on an idea of Britain is like... maybe... _maybe... ^maybe... maybe... just a ^teensy bit racist?

[Derek]

Elon Musk didn't like that. He says they made the male characters into little a-hole bitches. Tells Bezos to S his D. (Not verbatim)

 

Elon Musk Slams ‘The Rings of Power’ for Making ‘Almost Every Male Character a Coward’ or ‘Jerk,’ Reigniting Jeff Bezos Feud

VARIETY.COM

---

According to Elon Musk, every male character on "The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power" is a "coward" or a "jerk."

 

'Musk’s tweet drew backlash from many Twitter users, including “The Sandman” author Neil Gaiman. He replied, “Elon Musk doesn’t come to me for advice on how to fail to buy Twitter, and I don’t go to him for film, TV or literature criticism.”'

 

Lol

[Greatoneshere]

I am somewhat astonished this conversation is still happening. I feel like people didn't complain this long over She-Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Captain Marvel, The Last Jedi, Wonder Woman, and so on? Like pre-release and then immediately upon release, but it's done now. And how many years are we going to do this for? It's 2022. Film and TV, all businesses in pretty much every industry have realized representing all peoples is just better business. They are not going to reverse course when they could make more money not doing so. These racists and sexists who are so upset have lost the war, so I'm not sure why we keep having the same conversation over and over again? 

 

I feel stupid here, like this is some clown show, and I keep repeating the same arguments as to why their criticisms are stupid every which way for so long now. Also, what show is Musk watching (I bet he didn't watch it)? What male characters were as simplistic as just cowards or jerks? 

[legend]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

And how many years are we going to do this for? It's 2022.

 

By my calculations, another 73 years, give or take 3 months.

[Greatoneshere]

1 minute ago, legend said:

 

By my calculations, another 73 years, give or take 3 months.

 

I can't live this clown show for that long in this meat bag body. Will you have Ghost in the Shell-esque cyborg body prepared for my brain by then? I'm on AI's side, 100%. I'd like to live in this better world you're talking about 73 years from now.  

[legend]

3 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I can't live this clown show for that long in this meat bag body. Will you have Ghost in the Shell-esque cyborg body prepared for my brain by then? I'm on AI's side, 100%. I'd like to live in this better world you're talking about 73 years from now.  

 

If I have any say in it, D1P will be given special treatment when the dust settles.

[Greatoneshere]

4 minutes ago, legend said:

 

If I have any say in it, D1P will be given special treatment when the dust settles.

 

[Brick]

I want a robot body, thank you very much. 

[Jason]

 

[Spork3245]

@Greatoneshere @Fizzzzle
I wonder if that dude with Galadriel is... 

Spoiler

actually Sauron in another non-elf form? I think they washed up by Numenor and it may have been Sauron's goal to get there? But, also, why save Galadriel if that's true

 

[Fizzzzle]

2 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

@Greatoneshere @Fizzzzle
I wonder if that dude with Galadriel is... 

  Hide contents

actually Sauron in another non-elf form? I think they washed up by Numenor and it may have been Sauron's goal to get there? But, also, why save Galadriel if that's true

 

That could be true, though my theory is that we haven't seen Sauron yet. Unless he's the Stranger.

[Greatoneshere]

3 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

@Greatoneshere @Fizzzzle
I wonder if that dude with Galadriel is... 

  Hide contents

actually Sauron in another non-elf form? I think they washed up by Numenor and it may have been Sauron's goal to get there? But, also, why save Galadriel if that's true

 

 

51 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

That could be true, though my theory is that we haven't seen Sauron yet. Unless he's the Stranger.

 

I don't think Halbrand (random dude with Galadriel on the raft) is Sauron and I don't think the Stranger is Sauron. I think Halbrand is probably just some non-canonical character that helps represent a Morgoth following Man changing their opinion of Elves thanks to being around Galadriel, and perhaps Galadriel gains respect for common Men as well.

 

And I think the Stranger, as has been discussed by us, is either Radagast the Brown or a blue wizard. I do know Sauron does have to show up and trick everyone about the rings and such but I imagine that'll be tied to the Celebrimbor plotline I'd think?

[Fizzzzle]

4 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

 

I don't think Halbrand (random dude with Galadriel on the raft) is Sauron and I don't think the Stranger is Sauron. I think Halbrand is probably just some non-canonical character that helps represent a Morgoth following Man changing their opinion of Elves thanks to being around Galadriel, and perhaps Galadriel gains respect for common Men as well.

 

And I think the Stranger, as has been discussed by us, is either Radagast the Brown or a blue wizard. I do know Sauron does have to show up and trick everyone about the rings and such but I imagine that'll be tied to the Celebrimbor plotline I'd think?

I saw one tinfoil theory that Halbrand ends up becoming the Witch King. I could be down for that.

[Greatoneshere]

Just now, Fizzzzle said:

I saw one tinfoil theory that Halbrand ends up becoming the Witch King. I could be down for that.

 

Sure, I mean, why not? Is the Witch King of Angmar in the Southlands? That's where he says he's from at least in the episode. 

[Fizzzzle]

That's one thing that will happen during the show - the Nazgul don't exist yet, and they will by the end. Or at least they should.

[Fizzzzle]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Sure, I mean, why not? Is the Witch King of Angmar in the Southlands? That's where he says he's from at least in the episode. 

That's the beauty of it. Tolkien never says where the Nazgul come from, other than that they're lords of Men.

 

The Mouth of Sauron, at the very least, is a Numenorean.

 

I'm excited to see that fleshed out.

[Greatoneshere]

3 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

That's one thing that will happen during the show - the Nazgul don't exist yet, and they will by the end. Or at least they should.

 

Just now, Fizzzzle said:

That's the beauty of it. Tolkien never says where the Nazgul come from, other than that they're lords of Men.

 

The Mouth of Sauron, at the very least, is a Numenorean.

 

I'm excited to see that fleshed out.

 

Oh for sure, the rings haven't been handed out yet, so I'm expecting their creation during the show I hope. I just didn't know if there was more detail on that but seems not. Yeah, seeing all that fleshed out should be really good if done well. 

[CitizenVectron]

6 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

@Greatoneshere @Fizzzzle
I wonder if that dude with Galadriel is... 

  Hide contents

actually Sauron in another non-elf form? I think they washed up by Numenor and it may have been Sauron's goal to get there? But, also, why save Galadriel if that's true

 

 

3 hours ago, Fizzzzle said:

That could be true, though my theory is that we haven't seen Sauron yet. Unless he's the Stranger.

 

[Brick]

So what is "canon" in this show anyway (as much as it can be considered "canon")? What's in the Silmarilion that they can't use, and so what can they use from which sources? I haven't seen the movies since they came out, and have only ever read The Hobbit. 

[Fizzzzle]

9 minutes ago, Brick said:

So what is "canon" in this show anyway (as much as it can be considered "canon")? What's in the Silmarilion that they can't use, and so what can they use from which sources? I haven't seen the movies since they came out, and have only ever read The Hobbit. 

Supposedly they only have the rights to The Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, and the appendices of those books. However, there seems to be a LOT of grey area. Like, they've already mentioned Aulë (the Vala who created the Dwarves) and the Silmarils, which I didn't think they could reference by name, so... who knows!

[Greatoneshere]

52 minutes ago, Brick said:

So what is "canon" in this show anyway (as much as it can be considered "canon")? What's in the Silmarilion that they can't use, and so what can they use from which sources? I haven't seen the movies since they came out, and have only ever read The Hobbit. 

 

40 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

Supposedly they only have the rights to The Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, and the appendices of those books. However, there seems to be a LOT of grey area. Like, they've already mentioned Aulë (the Vala who created the Dwarves) and the Silmarils, which I didn't think they could reference by name, so... who knows!

 

Fizzle is correct that they only have the rights to The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings trilogy, and the appendices. However, my understanding is the show can use anything mentioned in those things, even if they are also mentioned in The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc. So, say in The Hobbit (I'm just making this up) they said that Sauron forged a second secret ring in Mordor. And then in Unfinished Tales, it says Sauron forged a second secret ring in Mordor with the help of a resurrected Saruman, the show can have a plot about that second secret ring because a character mentioned it in passing in The Hobbit or something. They just wouldn't be able to additionally use a resurrected Saruman, they'd have to write around it (just make up another wizard entirely, most likely). 

 

A lot gets mentioned in passing by characters in the material the show can use. In Rivendell, for instance, in the Fellowship of the Ring, there is tons of backstory dropped in those chapters that the show can use. Elrond mentions Beren and Hurin and Turin - the show can use those characters with as much info as is provided and then make up everything else (by subtly just replacing whatever The SIlmarillion, etc. elaborate on). That's the grey area I believe they can wade in.

 

A great example is the opening backstory in the opening of the show. I'm really happy they showed what they could but notice it's sort of vague and a little choppy in the narration (or I thought so at least), it kind of moves quickly - that's because that's probably all they can show, that's all that is probably elaborated on (that they're willing to show so far, anyway) from the material they are allowed to use. The Silmarillion, etc. go a lot more into what that quick flashback shows in the TV show. I know I've posted this before but this is what the showrunners said about all this: "There's a version of everything we need for the Second Age in the books we have the rights to. As long as we're painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don't have the rights to, there's a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with."

[Greatoneshere]

@Fizzzzle @Spork3245 I just realized that:

 

Spoiler

I forgot that on top of the mention of Valar Aule in relation to shaping the Dwarves, Sauron was a Maiar who also served under . . . Aule, I believe, before Mairon/Sauron's corruption by the Valar Melkor/Morgoth. That's definitely worth noting I'd wager.

 

[Spork3245]

10 hours ago, Fizzzzle said:

That's the beauty of it. Tolkien never says where the Nazgul come from, other than that they're lords of Men.

 

The Mouth of Sauron, at the very least, is a Numenorean.

 

I'm excited to see that fleshed out.

Yea, only the Witch King had any backstory beyond being a corrupted lord/king of man, and even then, there’s a very little detail iirc. There was that LotR RTS game which had a story mode around the Witch King and fleshed him out a lot (and didn’t deviate from the lore much, if at all, iirc) - it followed him building his army in Angmar and his initial assaults on Arnor. All of the missions and story were based on appendices from the books and various notes from Tolkien. I haven’t played it in forever, but I remember the biggest liberties it took were with snow trolls; they were as smart or smarter than orcs and not much bigger than Uruk-Hai.

The creation/corruption of the Mouth of Sauron could be interesting. A loooooong time ago I remember reading about a potential LotR (book) sequel that focused on the Mouth of Sauron, who escaped the battle in RotK, trying to build a force to retake Mordor with a plan to ultimately attempt to free Morgoth (he’s not dead, just trapped iirc). I can’t remember if it was “The New Shadow” or another one that was ultimately abandoned.

[Fizzzzle]

I feel like the showrunners took inspiration from The New Shadow. Like, we're in this world where almost everyone believes evil is vanquished and Orcs don't exist anymore outside of fairy tales. From some of the details I've seen about the next episode, it seems like they might actually be using some of it. If the Stranger is a blue wizard who may be good or may be evil? stay tuned.

 

Tolkien himself changed his mind on the blue wizards. At one point he said, of all the wizards, only Gandalf remained true to the cause. Even Radagast, while not turning evil, kind of forgot his purpose in the end. At another point, he said the Blue Wizards stayed true and were playing saboteurs in the east the whole time.

[DPCyric]

Finally got around to watching the first episode it's amazing and fuck those racist losers who care what color an elf is.

[Greatoneshere]

24 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

I feel like the showrunners took inspiration from The New Shadow. Like, we're in this world where almost everyone believes evil is vanquished and Orcs don't exist anymore outside of fairy tales. From some of the details I've seen about the next episode, it seems like they might actually be using some of it. If the Stranger is a blue wizard who may be good or may be evil? stay tuned.

 

Tolkien himself changed his mind on the blue wizards. At one point he said, of all the wizards, only Gandalf remained true to the cause. Even Radagast, while not turning evil, kind of forgot his purpose in the end. At another point, he said the Blue Wizards stayed true and were playing saboteurs in the east the whole time.

 

This is correct - though apparently the final word from Tolkien was your first part about only Gandalf staying true to the cause and his purpose. The two blue wizards' purposes were to be saboteurs in the south and the east, respectively, since those are the two areas with Men sympathizers and in the past allies of Morgoth. But Tolkien says outright in Unfinished Tales that only Gandalf remained faithful ultimately. I guess it's possible the Stranger is Mairon/Sauron due to him mentioning Aule, but I do still think more likely a wizard, probably Radagast.

 

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Blue_Wizards#History

 

Spoiler

What can be confusing was in Unfinished Tales Tolkien said the five Istari/Wizards arrived in the Third Age year 1000, but then in The Peoples of Middle-Earth (part of The History of Middle-Earth book series/compendium), it says they came during the Second Age year 1600, literally right before/during the creation of the rings of power and the one ring. It looks like the show may very well be going with that, which makes sense dramatically.

 

[Spork3245]

3 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

This is correct - though apparently the final word from Tolkien was your first part about only Gandalf staying true to the cause and his purpose. The two blue wizards' purposes were to be saboteurs in the south and the east, respectively, since those are the two areas with Men sympathizers and in the past allies of Morgoth. But Tolkien says outright in Unfinished Tales that only Gandalf remained faithful ultimately. I guess it's possible the Stranger is Mairon/Sauron due to him mentioning Aule, but I do still think more likely a wizard, probably Radagast.

 

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Blue_Wizards#History

 

  Reveal hidden contents

What can be confusing was in Unfinished Tales Tolkien said the five Istari/Wizards arrived in the Third Age year 1000, but then in The Peoples of Middle-Earth (part of The History of Middle-Earth book series/compendium), it says they came during the Second Age year 1600, literally right before/during the creation of the rings of power and the one ring. It looks like the show may very well be going with that, which makes sense dramatically.

 

This should clear some stuff up: 

[Greatoneshere]

17 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

This should clear some stuff up: 

 

Yeah, personally I've always liked the Peoples of Middle-Earth interpretation of events and such whenever it contradicts Unfinished Tales or something older from Tolkien. I'll be curious which way the show goes. 

[Fizzzzle]

In one interpretation, Glorfindel actually comes to middle earth with the blue Wizards. I doubt the show will when include him (I'm already apprehensive about the fact that they just omitted Celeborn entirely), but he was a dude that was so bodacious that the Valar were like "yo, I know you slew a Balrog in single combat, but you can't retire just yet"

 

Apparently Tolkien initially planned on having Glorfindel be a part of the Fellowship, but later reconsidered as Glorfindel would have been way too OP

 

(For those who aren't familiar with the books, it's Glorfindel who takes Frodo across the Bruinen to Rivendell and kind of causes the flood that washes away the Nazgul. Glorfindel is basically Elf mega-chad)

 

[Greatoneshere]

3 hours ago, Fizzzzle said:

 (I'm already apprehensive about the fact that they just omitted Celeborn entirely)

 

I'm not sure we can confirm this is the case yet. My understanding is that while Galadriel and Celeborn have been together since the First Age, they sometimes lived together and other times apart, which makes sense given the life span of elves. Perhaps they are apart for now? Not saying it's likely, but could be.

[Brick]

OK that slo-mo sequence on the horse, especially the shot of her riding it with its head turned to the camera, was just awkwardly shot.