Kobe Bryant and Eight Others Dead In Helicopter Crash

[Alpha1Cowboy]

4 minutes ago, Scott said:

My intention is not to be basic or reductive. We can only know these public figures to a limited degree. And Kobe’s legacy is mostly one of positivity. Screaming about his rape allegation seems to me like those people who scream about MLKJr plagiarizing his college essays or whatever. Yeah, he probably did some bad shit, and we can talk about that, but do we need to scream about it on MLK day, when most of the world is trying to reflect on all the good he did for the world?

Not a bad point...but I'm gonna stay consistent so when Trump dies I don't have to worry about being nice.  

 

 

If Jared and Ivanka had bit it on their copter ride I wouldn't have waited either ....  

 

<--Bad Guy

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

@skillzdadirecta- I don't think there could be that much basis for a case though the families could try.  The ATC audio seems to indicate that the pilot was aware of the conditions and was requesting appropriate Special VFR guidance from the towers so it doesn't seem like any real undue negligence was involved.

[Ghost_MH]

26 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

I don’t wanna jump in on either side of this debate. But just out of curiosity.

 

How many people here know a woman that was raped? Not “know of a woman” but someone who is close to you. 

 

Multiple, and that includes family.

 

My take here is that everyone deserves the benefit if the doubt on both ends. Going after the victim here was scummy on Kobe's part, but I don't even know how much of that is on Kobe and his much if that is on his lawyers. He was what? In his mid twenties at the time with plenty of money and very expensive attorneys.

 

He never had any other actuations levied against him, so both parties could very well be telling the truth from their own perspectives. We'll never know, but I think leaving this sordid tale as a part of his story is fair. That's what The Root did in their coverage. I wouldn't, however, start any story about him with the rape actuations. That just puts far too much weight on this.

 

It's very different from Cosby, who took things to an entirely evil level. The only thing they have in common is that they're famous and black. There's an order of magnitude here that I think does a disservice to his crimes and what Cosby really did to his legacy and why he doesn't deserve any real redemption.

[SaysWho?]

For whatever it's worth, even though many of you find this discussion frustrating, I think it's a good discussion because the answer to, "Do we forgive someone for past acts if the act was heinous?" and "Do we believe women considering the amount of rape accusations that are found to be true?" are good things to talk about. They're hard to talk about, but if the accusations are true, the woman has to live with it despite how thorny it is to confront.

 

If we had more ladies on this board, they could give their view on it. I just dunno what to really think, and I feel that's OK since I'm not required to judge.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, SFLUFAN said:

@skillzdadirecta- I don't think there could be that much basis for a case though the families could try.  The ATC audio seems to indicate that the pilot was aware of the conditions and was requesting appropriate Special VFR guidance from the towers so it doesn't seem like any real undue negligence was involved.

 

So just a tragic accident due to weather?

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

So just a tragic accident due to weather?

That's my initial read.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

10 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

For whatever it's worth, even though many of you find this discussion frustrating, I think it's a good discussion because the answer to, "Do we forgive someone for past acts if the act was heinous?" and "Do we believe women considering the amount of rape accusations that are found to be true?" are good things to talk about. They're hard to talk about, but if the accusations are true, the woman has to live with it despite how thorny it is to confront.

 

If we had more ladies on this board, they could give their view on it. I just dunno what to really think, and I feel that's OK since I'm not required to judge.

It’s definitely not a 1:1, apples to apples comparison, but if Bill Cosby were to die in a horrible accident or as collateral damage in a terrorist attack, I don’t think anyone would act as though the slate was suddenly wiped clean. 
 

sadly there are more factors that even just “is it true?”
 

That doesn’t mean Kobe’s legacy doesn’t get forever tainted where he’s never even brought up in “best of a time” lists as more comes out over the years. 

[Keyser_Soze]

26 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Anyway, this thread has turned EXACTLY into what I hoped it wouldn't and I regret my part in it. If anyone feels like locking it and starting another one feel free.

 

The one on the sports board is mostly positive, you can post in that one!

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, Keyser_Soze said:

 

The one on the sports board is mostly positive, you can post in that one!

Lol I was JUST looking at that one when you posted this 

[stepee]

41 minutes ago, Scott said:

I feel like this conversation has served no purpose.

 

I mean, yeah, it’s an argument on the internet.

[Guest]

Wasn’t without purpose for me. I learned a lot about how people perceive these situations. Discussions aren’t just about persuasion  

[johnny]

I don't think sbl's comments were bad. I think we are/were emotional about what happened to Kobe and the people on the helicopter and thats what sparked the argument. He maybe didnt anticipate that so many people would be upset by the news as well. 

[Jason]

[Dodger]

Personally, unless the person was truly a terrible person, I think it's really tacky to speak ill of the dead right away. At least let the body get cold first. But there's always that person who wants to jump in and be edgy and mention whatever bad things they did. But hey that's just me. 

[Jason]

[Jason]

 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Dodger said:

Personally, unless the person was truly a terrible person, I think it's really tacky to speak ill of the dead right away. At least let the body get cold first. But there's always that person who wants to jump in and be edgy and mention whatever bad things they did. But hey that's just me. 

The “complicated legacy” is the defining characteristic of every news story about the guy’s life starting last night, only a few hours after his death. The squishy standard on when exactly randos on the internet can note this between themselves is rapidly shifting in just the last few pages. A couple of weeks said one person, a couple of days said you, and I’m sure you’ll now say it has to be at least a couple of hours  

[Joe]

How Riley's post doesn't have more than 3 upvotes is beyond me.

[sexy_shapiro]

As someone who doesn’t really watch sports I’m more familiar with Kobe’s rape accusation than his basketball accomplishments. I don’t think it’s inappropriate to bring up, it was a big deal at the time. In general I don’t see the good in whitewashing a public figure’s history after they die.

 

The problem is our society think too much in black and white terms. Someone is either a good or bad person, with little room in between. So many people are incapable of acknowledging the bad alongside the good. I appreciate @sblfilms is at least acknowledging that he was complicated instead of pretending otherwise. People are complex and rarely fit into one neat box.

[Dodger]

5 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

The “complicated legacy” is the defining characteristic of every news story about the guy’s life starting last night, only a few hours after his death. The squishy standard on when exactly randos on the internet can note this between themselves is rapidly shifting in just the last few pages. A couple of weeks said one person, a couple of days said you, and I’m sure you’ll now say it has to be at least a couple of hours  

 

 

You seem to really like being a dick lately don't you? You made the 4th post in this thread. The guy was literally known dead for less than an hour at that point. Whatever random point you aren't supposed to be an ass about a dead person you definitely crossed. 

 

Look it doesn't matter, somebody was going to be the guy. It just happens to be you. And again you seem to enjoy being an asshole around here lately, so I'm sure it's no skin off your back. You do you boo boo. I'm not the only person around here who thought your comment was too soon. 

 

But hey when we get the alert Bill Cosby has dropped dead, you go ahead and be that guy. I'm sure you'll love every minute of it. 

[Dodger]

6 minutes ago, Jose said:

How Riley's post doesn't have more than 3 upvotes is beyond me.

 

 

4 now

[sexy_shapiro]

2 hours ago, Mercury33 said:

I don’t wanna jump in on either side of this debate. But just out of curiosity.

 

How many people here know a woman that was raped? Not “know of a woman” but someone who is close to you. 

I know of at least two women close to me. I have a male friend who was raped, and two others who were abused as young boys. Rape affects men too, particularly gay men.

 

And I hesitate to be so open, but I’m also a victim of sexual assault.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Dodger said:

You seem to really like being a dick lately don't you? You made the 4th post in this thread. The guy was literally known dead for less than an hour at that point. Whatever random point you aren't supposed to be an ass about a dead person you definitely crossed.  

Noting that a public person’s legacy is complicated due to their greatest and worst aspects doesn’t make you an ass, no matter how many times you say it. You have to actually make your case that there is something wrong with it. But you haven’t done so, and the fact that the main narrative in the media the day he died is the one I noted must be frustrating  

[stepee]

While I don’t exactly disagree with sblfilms overall, passive aggressive emoticons are the worst.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, stepee said:

While I don’t exactly disagree with sblfilms overall, passive aggressive emoticons are the worst.

Agreed 

[Dodger]

24 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Noting that a public person’s legacy is complicated due to their greatest and worst aspects doesn’t make you an ass, no matter how many times you say it. You have to actually make your case that there is something wrong with it. But you haven’t done so, and the fact that the main narrative in the media the day he died is the one I noted must be frustrating  

 

 

Multiple people in this thread thought your post was in poor taste. I watched the breaking news coverage for about 2 hours afterward like I mentioned before, and the alleged rape was never mentioned. Even on racist Fox News since they had the story first who woudln't suprise me to be  eager to shit all over a successful black man's legacy, didn't mention it or any taint to his legacy. 

 

Again you're post was literally within an hour of his known death, not several hours later, not today, not next week. Nothing you're posting is actually helping you and is in fact reinforcing my point. There was at least a few hour gap between the reports of his death and any mention of the rape or that his legacy is tarnished, and I'm just taking your word for it since I only watched the first couple hours after the annoucement. So no, the main media narrative noted immediately after his death is not the one you noted. Must be frustrating 

[Paperclyp]

Equating what you did to how the media covered it is disingenuous. They all mention accusations of a sexual assault - not a one mainstream media member called him a “probable rapist,” minutes or hours after the event. 
 

You are the one changing your narrative. Most people in this thread are open to the topic being discussed and mentioned in pieces in the media. The issue people had was how you did it. You continue to shy it off as silly, but yes, tact matters to many of us.

 

If you want to continue to dig in and pretend to not see that how you phrased it upset people on the boards, that’s your prerogative. But I take issue with you acting like people don’t want it mentioned at all. 

[Joe]

6 minutes ago, Dodger said:

 

 

Multiple people in this thread thought your post was in poor taste. I watched the breaking news coverage for about 2 hours afterward like I mentioned before, and the alleged rape was never mentioned. Even on racist Fox News since they had the story first who woudln't suprise me to be  eager to shit all over a successful black man's legacy, didn't mention it or any taint to his legacy. 

 

Again you're post was literally within an hour of his known death, not several hours later, not today, not next week. Nothing you're posting is actually helping you and is in fact reinforcing my point. There was at least a few hour gap between the reports of his death and any mention of the rape or that his legacy is tarnished, and I'm just taking your word for it since I only watched the first couple hours after the annoucement. So no, the main media narrative noted immediately after his death is not the one you noted. Must be frustrating :). 

 

Just as many people have posted in this thread saying his post was fine and the discussion was valid. 

[Paperclyp]

Apologies for the double post 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Dodger said:

So no, the main media narrative noted immediately after his death is not the one you noted. Must be frustrating :). 

I literally linked to like a half dozen articles from last night in which all of them mention it, because it frames how society deals with legacies. You can find it on page 4. There are dozens more elsewhere.

 

6 minutes ago, Paperclyp said:

You continue to shy it off as silly, but yes, tact matters to many of us.

To whom do I need to be sensitive? This is a sincere question.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

When worlds collide

 

 

[Paperclyp]

5 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I literally linked to like a half dozen articles from last night in which all of them mention it, because it frames how society deals with legacies. You can find it on page 4. There are dozens more elsewhere.

 

To whom do I need to be sensitive? This is a sincere question.

Again, you don’t NEED to be sensitive to anyone. I’m telling you the reason why people were upset with you was that Kobe was meaningful to us and your choice of words made that pain that we were feeling worse. I cried watching the tributes and player reactions yesterday. 
 

Nobody has a gun to your head to be empathetic to your board members. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Paperclyp said:

Again, you don’t NEED to be sensitive to anyone. I’m telling you the reason why people were upset with you was that Kobe was meaningful to us and your choice of words made that pain that we were feeling worse. I cried watching the tributes and played reactions yesterday. 
 

Nobody has a gun to your head to be empathetic to your board members. 

I’m sorry I hurt your feelings. I don’t personally have that level of emotional investment in sports, so it’s helpful to know people here do.

[Paperclyp]

Just now, sblfilms said:

I’m sorry I hurt your feelings. I don’t personally have that level of emotional investment in sports, but it’s helpful to know people here do.

Thanks. 

[Dodger]

8 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I literally linked to like a half dozen articles from last night in which all of them mention it, because it frames how society deals with legacies. You can find it on page 4. There are dozens more elsewhere.

 

To whom do I need to be sensitive? This is a sincere question.

 

 

Which were all published several hours after his death, and it's not like the titles say "NBA legend and alleged rapist" no the rape part is buried in the middle somewhere for most of those. Fuck two of them you linked to are obituaries which we now famously know are mostly already written before the person is actually dead.