Movies ~*Colin Trevorrow's Star Wars: Episode IX - Duel of the Fates OT*~

[skillzdadirecta]

2 hours ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

 

Beating a dead horse is when you're rehashing the same arguments and not adding anything new.  This is something new 

[cusideabelincoln]

Is it really new, or did we just roll the dead body over?

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, cusideabelincoln said:

Is it really new, or did we just roll the dead body over?

 

You really have to make sure both sides are dead.

[skillzdadirecta]

The webcomic was new to me... especially considering that I didn't even bother to read anything about Treverrow's script. It took someone turning it into a comic for me to even bother. I posted here because I know a lot of YOU guys were big on his script. Shoot me 

[Greatoneshere]

17 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

The webcomic was new to me... especially considering that I didn't even bother to read anything about Treverrow's script. It took someone turning it into a comic for me to even bother. I posted here because I know a lot of YOU guys were big on his script. Shoot me 

 

I was just kidding, I think it was definitely worth posting.

[Kal-El814]

This is a long article about how white supremacists, gamergaters, and alt-right trolls effectively energized the online discourse around The Last Jedi.

 

And before someone starts to post about how THEY don't like TLJ and THEY don't traffic in this stuff, putting me at risk for rectal prolapse, that really isn't the point at all.

 

I don't suspect that the main point will be novel to most people, but the level of detail it goes into is impressive.

[cusideabelincoln]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:15 PM, Kal-El814 said:

This is a long article about how white supremacists, gamergaters, and alt-right trolls effectively energized the online discourse around The Last Jedi.

 

And before someone starts to post about how THEY don't like TLJ and THEY don't traffic in this stuff, putting me at risk for rectal prolapse, that really isn't the point at all.

 

I don't suspect that the main point will be novel to most people, but the level of detail it goes into is impressive.

Holy fuck: The power of a loud minority undermines the good of the majority.  That's a lot of work to get that insightful data.  

[Kal-El814]

8 hours ago, cusideabelincoln said:

Holy fuck: The power of a loud minority undermines the good of the majority.  That's a lot of work to get that insightful data.  

 

Yeah, it's really something.  This is part of why I lose my shit whenever people quote tweet or otherwise boost the signal of troll accounts, even if it's to dunk on them. It helps them with all of this bullshit.

[Reputator]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:15 PM, Kal-El814 said:

This is a long article about how white supremacists, gamergaters, and alt-right trolls effectively energized the online discourse around The Last Jedi.

 

And before someone starts to post about how THEY don't like TLJ and THEY don't traffic in this stuff, putting me at risk for rectal prolapse, that really isn't the point at all.

 

I don't suspect that the main point will be novel to most people, but the level of detail it goes into is impressive.

 

Imagine writing a huge expose on The Last Jedi in 2021.

 

The insights into how Steve Bannon and others inflamed the culture war are really well done. That first half of the article really breaks it down cleanly.

 

The rest of the article attempts to find the connections of TLJ critics (especially the more influential ones) with alt-right groups when possible. Some of it is obvious, others are done more subjectively by the author through the lens of a feminist blog site, who writes gems like this:

 

Mary Sue is a pejorative label given to female characters who typically

have a lead role, are strong-willed, powerful, and are allowed to exercise femininity. The term applies standards towards female fictional characters that are not applied to male characters in an effort to dismiss their legitimacy in the narrative.

 

I can get behind how "mary sue" has been used as a misogynistic bludgeon by alt-right/MRA folks against this and other films. But how does purposefully misinterpreting the term (which existed long before this culture war) help your side?

[Brick]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:15 PM, Kal-El814 said:

This is a long article about how white supremacists, gamergaters, and alt-right trolls effectively energized the online discourse around The Last Jedi.

 

And before someone starts to post about how THEY don't like TLJ and THEY don't traffic in this stuff, putting me at risk for rectal prolapse, that really isn't the point at all.

 

I don't suspect that the main point will be novel to most people, but the level of detail it goes into is impressive.

 

I haven't read this yet because holy hell you're right it's long, but I will, but I want to ask if at any point it asserts that the trolls were able to influence Disney into thinking that most people hated TLJ, and tried "fix" things with TRoS. I have a hard time believing that Disney, a multi-billion dollar company, with vast amounts of resources to market research would be fooled by something that even us lowly forum posters would see as an alt-right loud minority. 

[cusideabelincoln]

1 hour ago, Brick said:

 

I haven't read this yet because holy hell you're right it's long, but I will, but I want to ask if at any point it asserts that the trolls were able to influence Disney into thinking that most people hated TLJ, and tried "fix" things with TRoS. I have a hard time believing that Disney, a multi-billion dollar company, with vast amounts of resources to market research would be fooled by something that even us lowly forum posters would see as an alt-right loud minority. 

 

Yes, the article brings up the "fixes", but acknowledges that trolls weren't the only ones doing the influencing.

 

The article was a nice summary of Gamergate. I did not follow that fiasco at all, and until reading that article operated under the assumption Gamergate was just about journalistic integrity, and didn't realize after the initial "integrity" claims (started by a jealous ex-boyfriend) there was so much misogynist harassment.

 

All that evidence is great justification for the permanent elimination of Steve Bannon and affiliates. 

 

I hypothesize how alt-right harassment and the targeted recruitment correlates so strongly with gamers is because of the economic-leading-to-ethnic breakdown of gamers.  There's just a lot of white gamers out there, because their white parents were the first to afford the luxury that has now turned into a hobby they themselves can now afford.  And now assholes like Steve Bannon take advantage of this huge pool of white people, and poison them if they weren't already right-leaning.  Anyone have a Statista subscription to confirm this with some data?

[skillzdadirecta]

4 hours ago, Reputator said:

I can get behind how "mary sue" has been used as a misogynistic bludgeon by alt-right/MRA folks against this and other films. But how does purposefully misinterpreting the term (which existed long before this culture war) help your side?

Honestly what difference does it make? Whatever the term meant before is kind irrelevant, this is what it means NOW. I had never heard the term before people on THIS board started tossing it around shortly after The Force Awakens came out and I PROMISE you, most folks who actually work in the entertainment business have no idea that the term exists. The way it's described in that part you quoted is exactly how it always struck me when I've seen it used. 

 

I haven't read the article either but does it address the irrational hate that Kathleen Kennedy gets? Because that shit is weird too.

[Reputator]

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Honestly what difference does it make? Whatever the term meant before is kind irrelevant, this is what it means NOW. I had never heard the term before people on THIS board started tossing it around shortly after The Force Awakens came out and I PROMISE you, most folks who actually work in the entertainment business have no idea that the term exists. The way it's described in that part you quoted is exactly how it always struck me when I've seen it used. 

 

I haven't read the article either but does it address the irrational hate that Kathleen Kennedy gets? Because that shit is weird too.

 

It's very relevant. The term itself could die in a fire and be replaced with something gender-agnostic, but the problem it describes is story-related.

 

Also that's not what it means now.

[CitizenVectron]

1 hour ago, Reputator said:

 

It's very relevant. The term itself could die in a fire and be replaced with something gender-agnostic, but the problem it describes is story-related.

 

Also that's not what it means now.

 

It's only relevant in the same way it's relevant that swastikas were used in ancient India - it had no bearing on what the meaning is now, and why it should be eliminated.

[Reputator]

25 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

It's only relevant in the same way it's relevant that swastikas were used in ancient India - it had no bearing on what the meaning is now, and why it should be eliminated.

 

See, this is exactly the problem with discourse around this film.

 

Alt-right hate groups latched onto this film and used it as a recruitment tool. From that moment forward, any criticisms about the film, even story-based, could be lumped into easier strawman arguments about feminism and race. And presto, suddenly criticisms about boring flawless characters can be nullified because a problematic term used used to describe it is now a stand-in for the swastika.

[johnny]

i’ve seen so many people on this board, reddit, twitter, irl, etc have good faith discussions pushing back against the criticisms of TLJ. i mean there are PAGES UPON PAGES of honest discourse on this website. 

 

the right has proved time and time again that they are brain dead and racist and sexist at their core. 

 

lets see who from the sequel trilogy gets shit on the most: 

 

rian johnson - white guy but he ruined white male childhoods so ok 

daisy ridley - woman (btw, never any hate on JJ for making her character a “mary sue”, she is the one who gets the hate)

kelly marie tran - asian woman 

kathleen kennedy - woman 

 

if rise of skywalker wasn’t so bad and forgettable you could probably add Naomi Ackie to that list who is a black woman. 

 

at some point you have to call a spade a spade and call the people making these dumbass hateful arguments what they are. 

 

if you are mad that luke was grumpy it is not a valid criticism and while that doesn’t make you sexist, you are an angry man child  

[skillzdadirecta]

6 hours ago, Reputator said:

 

See, this is exactly the problem with discourse around this film.

 

Alt-right hate groups latched onto this film and used it as a recruitment tool. From that moment forward, any criticisms about the film, even story-based, could be lumped into easier strawman arguments about feminism and race. And presto, suddenly criticisms about boring flawless characters can be nullified because a problematic term used used to describe it is now a stand-in for the swastika.

The problem is that these "story related problems" only became problems with THIS movie. Rey is a "Mary Sue" in the same way Neo, Anakin, Luke and countless other male protagonists in other films and stories. That's why its so hard for me to take these arguments as good faith arguments. I honestly believe that some of the folks making these arguments can't see for themselves why Rey bothers them so much as a character.

[Reputator]

9 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

The problem is that these "story related problems" only became problems with THIS movie. Rey is a "Mary Sue" in the same way Neo, Anakin, Luke and countless other male protagonists in other films and stories. That's why its so hard for me to take these arguments as good faith arguments. I honestly believe that some of the folks making these arguments can't see for themselves why Rey bothers them so much as a character.

 

lol they didn't become a problem just with this movie. Maybe for some people it did. But as I said, the term existed before TFA, but you're still hung up on "well I never heard of it before then!" Ever wonder why Superman tends to not be as popular as Batman?

[CayceG]

As a leftist, I'm very glad that the issues are correctly being pointed out. 

 

And also, I'd like to point out that I--correctly--identified JJ Abrams as the problem from the get go.  

[Kal-El814]

On 3/14/2021 at 2:11 PM, Reputator said:

I can get behind how "mary sue" has been used as a misogynistic bludgeon by alt-right/MRA folks against this and other films. But how does purposefully misinterpreting the term (which existed long before this culture war) help your side?

 

I don’t think it’s a misuse of the term. 

 

I think what the author wrote is generally implied when the term is being used. There’s a lot of code speak happening when people say stuff like, in relation to Star Wars, “oh Rey just learned too quickly.” They’d get roasted if they just said, “I think it’s bullshit this woman is really good with the Force.” Again I don’t think that ALL criticism of Rey is founded in this but I think a lot of the stuff referenced in the link I posted is coming from that place. My understanding of a Mary Sue is that it’s a woman character who’s generally free of weakness; I don’t think what you bolded is a stretch from that, and I don’t think it’s purposefully misrepresenting the term insomuch as it’s unpacking what it actually means.

 

I also think this standard also makes things much harder for marginalized voices to be taken seriously. I’ve seen so many “criticisms” of people like Sarkeesian that distill an entire video / perspective into something like, “she got this one factoid about Mario wrong and I’m supposed to take this seriously?” Straight, white, male creators just generally aren’t held to anything close to the same standard as people examining that media from an intersectional lens, and that’s problematic.

 

I mean there’s no doubt that the criticism of Rey, Finn, Rose, and Holdo was amplified because they’re not white, male characters, and that amplification was driven by right wing hacks. Calling out a potential misuse of the term Mary Sue in that bit just distracts from the overall point.

 

3 hours ago, Reputator said:

Ever wonder why Superman tends to not be as popular as Batman?

 

I mean... Superman was more popular than Batman until The Dark Knight Returns came out, so I’d wager it has more to do with Batman comics adapting more to “dark and serious” media becoming popular around then than it does about something inherent about either of those characters. And Superman has still sold something like 100 million + more issues life to date than Batman has. Besides, both characters have changed so much and existed for so long I think it’s not possible to say declaratively why one is more popular.

 

EDIT - I say “I mean” too fucking much.

[skillzdadirecta]

3 hours ago, Reputator said:

 

lol they didn't become a problem just with this movie. Maybe for some people it did. But as I said, the term existed before TFA, but you're still hung up on "well I never heard of it before then!" Ever wonder why Superman tends to not be as popular as Batman?

Superman was the most popular character in the WORLD until the late 80's when grim and gritty became fashionable and Frank Miller set him up to be Batman's bitch in the Dark Knight Returns. He's STILL an incredibly popular character and is consistently one of DC's best selling titles. Also as I understand the definition, Batman could easily fit into the "Mary Sue" trope as well if he were female. People seem to think that a character with no super powers but unlimited resources can defeat ANYONE if he put his mind to it.

 

I went and looked up the term "Mary Sue" today and discovered that the phrase was coined in the early 70's by two female writers Paula Smith and Sharon Ferarro when they created a character with the name for a Star Trek fanzine they were doing according to wikipedia

 

Quote

A Mary Sue is a type of fictional character, usually a young woman, who is portrayed as unrealistically free of weaknesses.[1] Originating in fan fiction, a Mary Sue is often an author's idealized self-insertion. Mary Sue stories are often written by adolescent authors.[2]

The term Mary Sue was coined by Paula Smith, as a character's name in the 1973 parody short story "A Trekkie's Tale", which satirized idealized female characters widespread in Star Trek fan fiction. A male character with similar traits may be labeled a Gary Stu or Marty Stu.

 

Quote

The term Mary Sue comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 in the parody story "A Trekkie's Tale",[1] published in Smith's and Sharon Ferraro's Star Trek fanzine Menagerie.[3] The story featured Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet—only fifteen and a half years old"[4]), and satirized idealistic female characters widespread in Star Trek fan fiction.[4][5] The full story reads:

"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet—only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her. "Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?"

"Captain! I am not that kind of girl!"

"You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us."

Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?"

"The Captain told me to."

"Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."

Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.

But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies, Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.

However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday on the Enterprise.[6]:94–96

 

Here's where things get interesting:

 

Quote

In 1976, Menagerie's editors wrote:

Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.[7]

Smith and Ferraro created the character to parody a recurring pattern found in author submissions to Menagerie, in which a young woman would arrive on the Starship Enterprise and quickly win over the established characters. While the Mary Sue character did not originally have a specific gender, these submitted stories tended to be written by women. According to Smith and Ferraro, women made up most of the Star Trek fan base, unlike the larger science fiction fandom.[3]

 

Here's where it gets REAL interesting

 

Quote

The Mary Sue character has acquired a negative connotation in fan communities[6]:53 as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.[9] They may excel at tasks that should not be possible for them.[10] Smith and Ferraro had initially considered other (male) names such as "Murray Sue" or "Marty Sue". Comparing the character to male proxies such as Superman, Smith later said, "It was OK for [men] to have placeholder characters that were incredibly able."[3]

 

Quote

According to scholar Camille Bacon-Smith, the label is "the most universally denigrated genre in the entire canon of fan fiction"[6]:94 and may represent "self-imposed sexism" by limiting the qualities allowed for female characters.[6]:97 Author Ann C. Crispin described the term Mary Sue as "a put-down, implying that the character so summarily dismissed is not a true character, no matter how well drawn, what sex, species, or degree of individuality".[6]:98 As the term has gained in popularity, male fans have often used it to denigrate any capable female character.[3]

 

and this is the part that I myself observed once I became aware of the term and what it meant.

 

Quote

Less commonly, male characters may be used to personify the same wish-fulfillment functions. Called Marty Stu, Gary Stu,[14] Gary Sue, or Larry Stu,[a] these characters are typically discussed in fan culture as adjuncts to the Mary Sue trope.[14] For example, fans have argued that in Star Trek, the character James T. Kirk is a "Marty Stu".[6]:97

In a 2012 interview, Paula Smith said that the male alternative is rarely pointed out, citing James Bond and Superman as popular "Marty Stu" characters.[5] She argued that male Mary Sues benefit the male audience's coming of age: "[W]hat gets focused on in the culture is defined by boys and young men. Psychologically, there's a turning point in men's lives. There's a point where they need to break away from women in their youth, and then later they come back to women as grown men, but many men never make it, never quite come back to a world that includes women as human beings.

 

So even the woman who actually CREATED THE TROPE can see how its been appropriated and used to denegrate female characters and has been used as pretty much a mysoginsitic slur. I didn't pull that out of my ass and it's clear to anyone who's being honest with themselves.

 

Lastly, it seems that Max Landis was one of the first to label Rey as a Mary Sue in The Force Awakens which makes sense since he's also kind of a creep. He seems JUST like the type who would be at the head of the "He-Man-Woman-Haters-Club" 

 

 

 

[SaysWho?]

On 3/14/2021 at 2:11 PM, Reputator said:

 

Imagine writing a huge expose on The Last Jedi in 2021.

 

Great films are talked about for a long long time.  

[Reputator]

Oh boy, a lot to unpack here! Alright...

 

2 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

I don’t think it’s a misuse of the term. 

 

I think what the author wrote is generally implied when the term is being used. There’s a lot of code speak happening when people say stuff like, in relation to Star Wars, “oh Rey just learned too quickly.” They’d get roasted if they just said, “I think it’s bullshit this woman is really good with the Force.” Again I don’t think that ALL criticism of Rey is founded in this but I think a lot of the stuff referenced in the link I posted is coming from that place. My understanding of a Mary Sue is that it’s a woman character who’s generally free of weakness; I don’t think what you bolded is a stretch from that, and I don’t think it’s purposefully misrepresenting the term insomuch as it’s unpacking what it actually means.

 

I did say I can get behind the notion that many used the term purely because they hold misogynistic views, in the text you quoted of me. However, it's not correct, if the article is trying to be objective, to reframe the definition of the term. It's disingenuous.

 

To remove the gender connotation for a moment, though it could be a matter of taste, a flawless character is a character without room for growth. You can argue whether that applies to TFA or not, but that's the gist of it. Even being "perfect" can be worked into a story as a flaw in itself, but if a story doesn't do that, the character is probably going to be rather boring or unrelatable. Again, this can be a preference.

 

2 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

I also think this standard also makes things much harder for marginalized voices to be taken seriously. I’ve seen so many “criticisms” of people like Sarkeesian that distill an entire video / perspective into something like, “she got this one factoid about Mario wrong and I’m supposed to take this seriously?” Straight, white, male creators just generally aren’t held to anything close to the same standard as people examining that media from an intersectional lens, and that’s problematic.

 

I mean there’s no doubt that the criticism of Rey, Finn, Rose, and Holdo was amplified because they’re not white, male characters, and that amplification was driven by right wing hacks. Calling out a potential misuse of the term Mary Sue in that bit just distracts from the overall point.

 

As a content creator myself, I will tell you, full stop, no one gets away with getting any detail wrong. Ever. The comments section will rip you to shreds if you get anything wrong. I don't keep up with Sarkeesian but I do remember her running a crowd-funding campaign and producing relatively mediocre results. See creators like No Clip, strafefox, Ahoy, Mustard, or Archipel for reference on how high the standard is for research-driven documentaries on YouTube.

 

I called it out because it DOES distract from their overall point. I was onboard until I got to that point and was like "whoa, this blog isn't in any way even trying to be objective." It stood out like a sore thumb to me.

 

2 hours ago, Kal-El814 said:

I mean... Superman was more popular than Batman until The Dark Knight Returns came out, so I’d wager it has more to do with Batman comics adapting more to “dark and serious” media becoming popular around then than it does about something inherent about either of those characters. And Superman has still sold something like 100 million + more issues life to date than Batman has. Besides, both characters have changed so much and existed for so long I think it’s not possible to say declaratively why one is more popular.

 

EDIT - I say “I mean” too fucking much.

 

Alright, let me clarify. In modern times, why do you think Batman tends to be more popular? Those points you mentioned about adopting a darker, more serious tone is exactly why I think that is. 50-80 years ago, flawless heroes were all the rage. When the world was in turmoil, people loved more simplified heroes that could do no wrong. Society since then has evolved their tastes. We want more nuanced, troubled characters that have as many struggles internally as they do externally. A term like "mary sue" probably wouldn't have even registered to people in the 30s through to the 70s.

 

This post is already too long so I'm going to have to skip @skillzdadirecta post, but I'm sure my points probably already address his.

[skillzdadirecta]

47 minutes ago, Reputator said:

 

 

This post is already too long so I'm going to have to skip @skillzdadirecta post, but I'm sure my points probably already address his.

 

They actually don't... you should probably READ my post. I'm quoting the woman who actually CREATED the term "Mary Sue" and her thoughts on how therm has evolved. It's cool though 

[Reputator]

6 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

They actually don't... you should probably READ my post. I'm quoting the woman who actually CREATED the term "Mary Sue" and her thoughts on how therm has evolved. It's cool though 

 

I'm sorry but arguing with this entire board (which I often have to do) is like balancing spinning plates and I just don't have the time to do it.

 

Also you didn't even read the article we're talking about.

[SaysWho?]

35 minutes ago, Reputator said:

 

I'm sorry but arguing with this entire board (which I often have to do) is like balancing spinning plates and I just don't have the time to do it.

 

I can understand this. I’ve had discussions where it was me vs the world, and sometimes it’s impossible to respond to everyone even if that means skipping reasonable posts.

[skillzdadirecta]

3 hours ago, Reputator said:

 

I'm sorry but arguing with this entire board (which I often have to do) is like balancing spinning plates and I just don't have the time to do it.

 

Also you didn't even read the article we're talking about.

 

Fair point  I will though.

[SuperSpreader]

22 hours ago, johnny said:

i’ve seen so many people on this board, reddit, twitter, irl, etc have good faith discussions pushing back against the criticisms of TLJ. i mean there are PAGES UPON PAGES of honest discourse on this website. 

 

the right has proved time and time again that they are brain dead and racist and sexist at their core. 

 

lets see who from the sequel trilogy gets shit on the most: 

 

rian johnson - white guy but he ruined white male childhoods so ok 

daisy ridley - woman (btw, never any hate on JJ for making her character a “mary sue”, she is the one who gets the hate)

kelly marie tran - asian woman 

kathleen kennedy - woman 

 

if rise of skywalker wasn’t so bad and forgettable you could probably add Naomi Ackie to that list who is a black woman. 

 

at some point you have to call a spade a spade and call the people making these dumbass hateful arguments what they are. 

 

if you are mad that luke was grumpy it is not a valid criticism and while that doesn’t make you sexist, you are an angry man child  

Counterpoint, TLJ and RoS are both terrible.

 

I don't dislike any of the characters, just the writing and anything to do with Poe.

 

What this trilogy exposed to me is that Star Wars fucking sucks and this might be the biggest waste of my time as a nerd that somehow I'm still wasting my time on right now because it's poison. LET IT BURN 

[SaysWho?]

6 hours ago, SuperSpreader said:

Counterpoint, TLJ and RoS are both terrible.

 

Counterpoint: LOL

[Ghost_MH]

15 hours ago, SuperSpreader said:

Counterpoint, TLJ and RoS are both terrible.

 

I don't dislike any of the characters, just the writing and anything to do with Poe.

 

What this trilogy exposed to me is that Star Wars fucking sucks and this might be the biggest waste of my time as a nerd that somehow I'm still wasting my time on right now because it's poison. LET IT BURN 

 

I mean, you are sort of not wrong. As a whole, there's are a couple of really great Star Wars films and a while bunch of average ones and a few that are just plain bad. The Star Wars films have never really been so that compelling. Certainly not enough to warrant the toxic fanbase.

 

That said, Star Wars that isn't a film is pretty damn great. The animated series, the comics, the games. The Star Wars universe is really great, but the films are so small because they're so hyper focused on reliving the glory of the original trilogy.

[Brick]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:15 PM, Kal-El814 said:

This is a long article about how white supremacists, gamergaters, and alt-right trolls effectively energized the online discourse around The Last Jedi.

 

And before someone starts to post about how THEY don't like TLJ and THEY don't traffic in this stuff, putting me at risk for rectal prolapse, that really isn't the point at all.

 

I don't suspect that the main point will be novel to most people, but the level of detail it goes into is impressive.

 

Finally got around to reading this. That was very in-depth. It's actually scary how much power the alt-right have over the discourse. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

OH MY GOD   WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY DOING?!?! 

 

Marvel is Trying To Fix Rise of Skywalker, And It's Going Wrong

SCREENRANT.COM

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"I have a bad feeling about this..."

 

Quote

Marvel is making a valiant attempt to reconcile the sequel trilogy's biggest revelations with the original trilogy. Unfortunately, it's not going well, not least because it doesn't make sense for Darth Vader to know so much about the Emperor's plans.

 

[johnny]

they would be better off creating a comic that retcons all of rise of skywalker 

[Kal-El814]

"Canon" is a malignancy from which the body of a fictional universe can never recover.

[SaysWho?]

What's Rise of Skywalker? I thought the Star Wars saga ended perfectly with 8.