Movies ~*Colin Trevorrow's Star Wars: Episode IX - Duel of the Fates OT*~

[SaysWho?]

On 12/28/2019 at 11:39 PM, ByWatterson said:

 

PT is antiseptic, cold, and distant. ROS's main "flaw" is that it arguably leans too much into heart, warmth, and optimism. 

 

Which has always been the main reason Star Wars works, when it works - even in ESB. And it works here. I mean, I think Return of the Jedi is almost indisputably a bad movie. And yet, when it stops trying it sell me toys, the heart of the characters makes it a pleasant experience. ROS is not a bad movie at all, but succeeds for the same reason ROTJ is remembered fondly. It's just NICE to be around these characters' energy and pluckiness. It's like the Cheers of movies. 

 

ROS has already started to trend ahead of TLJ in box office. I'll bet it ends up ahead on strong word of mouth. 

 

On 12/29/2019 at 1:25 AM, sblfilms said:

TLJ was review bombed on Rottentomatoes by Russian bot farms. This isn’t even in dispute  

 

Our actual industry research tools show across the board, reaction to ROS is slightly worse than TLJ. Not hugely, just slightly.

 

And as I’ve mentioned here and elsewhere, comparing the BO takes of these films will be wonky. For example, ROS opened much lower than it would have if Christmas wasn’t it’s 5th day of release due to all the last minute weekend shopping and travel. Conversely, having the Holiday in the middle of its first week as opposed to in its second week like TLJ is a big boost. It will be interesting to compare second weeks with TLJs being the Christmas holiday and ROS’ New Years.

 

It's starting to lag big time day-to-day.

 

 

The past couple days were equivalent to December 25 and 26 for TLJ [EDIT: I misread at first and thought they were 26 and 27. Corrected].

 

My rusty two cents: it's looking likely that those who said TRoS was benefiting from kids being out of school in its first week -- something TLJ didn't have -- were correct. And with this being the conclusion, that's even worse as ROTS outgrossed AOTC and ROTJ outgrossed Empire (that last one makes me sad ). 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

My interpretation at the end of  RoS, was that Rey was rejecting the traditional light/dark fight between Jedi and Sith -- and that after the defeat of the Emperor, she was the one who was going to bring balance to the Force.  A Palpatine who adopts the "Skywalker" name.  She adopted her own "Yellow" lightsaber, (which according to a friend of mine who is much more into the lore than I), is something that traditional Jedi didn't carry.

You're free to interpret the ending that way but nothing on screen indicates to me anything other than Rey using light to defeat dark. I mean she flatly rejects the power of the Darkside in defeating The Emperor and uses his own power against him. There was nothing in that scene that said to me she was using light AND dark to defeat The Emperor. As far as the yellow saber goes, according to what I looked up quickly yellow sabers were employed by Jedi Sentinels who were basically the middle ground between Jedi Consulars and Jedi Guardians. 

https://ultrasabers.com/holocron/the-lore-history-behind-the-yellow-lightsaber/

 

Nothing indicating that a yellow saber is someone who draws on light and dark. It's just another color that Jedi used albeit a rare one.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, SaysWho? said:

I just googled this because it always confused me, and:

 

Why are there two Star Wars series called Clone Wars and THE Clone Wars?! I get the first one was basically Star Wars TV in between episodes 2 and 3, but why was there another series with nearly the same title that took place at the same time?

 

Well, there's "Clone Wars" (no "the"), the Genndy Tartakovsky 2D animated micro-series that bridges Episodes II and III (but has now been made officially not canon by Disney). Even though it's not canon it's very good and I recommend watching it.

 

Then there's "The Clone Wars" (with the "the"), a CG animated series. With The Clone Wars, it IS canon and also takes place between Episodes II and III. Note though with the CG animated series that there's a pilot film you need to watch first also called Star Wars: The Clone Wars (it's not very good) and then the show starts with season 1, episode 1, "Ambush". The CG animated series has its ups and downs, some episodes and story arcs can be pretty good (especially in later seasons) but some episodes and story arcs can be pretty rough (particularly in earlier seasons, like the first). 

[Kal-El814]

20 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Random thought, did any of the characters ever acknowledge that Darth Vader created C-3P0?

 

20 hours ago, CayceG said:

 

I think the movies even realized how ridiculous that was and decided to ignore it entirely once Ep 1 hit.

Bail Organa has a line in Revenge of the Sith in which he has Threepio's memory wiped. Beyond that, no.

 

This makes Artoo one of the more bizarre characters in the entire canon... he meets A LOT of people who he'd interacted with before that don't recognize him or comment on that at all, he has a ton of information that would be useful to the people he's hanging out with that is never shared, etc.  I'll write off Artoo not recognizing Obi-Wan, dude visually aged 30 years in about half that time, he forgot that double the suns means double the SPF on your Coppertone. But Artoo and Yoda know one another pretty fucking well, they're both just method acting on Dagobah, I guess? Artoo knows who Luke's dad is and says nothing, what a dick.

[skillzdadirecta]

16 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Well, there's "Clone Wars" (no "the"), the Genndy Tartakovsky 2D animated micro-series that bridges Episodes II and III (but has now been made officially not canon by Disney). Even though it's not canon it's very good and I recommend watching it.

 

Then there's "The Clone Wars" (with the "the"), a CG animated series. With The Clone Wars, it IS canon and also takes place between Episodes II and III. Note though with the CG animated series that there's a pilot film you need to watch first also called Star Wars: The Clone Wars (it's not very good) and then the show starts with season 1, episode 1, "Ambush". The CG animated series has its ups and downs, some episodes and story arcs can be pretty good (especially in later seasons) but some episodes and story arcs can be pretty rough (particularly in earlier seasons, like the first). 

 

Interesting because I started with episode 1 the Ambush and felt like I missed something. Disney plus has the pilot movie as well I assume? I'm about four episodes into the first season.

[SaysWho?]

5 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

Bail Organa has a line in Revenge of the Sith in which he has Threepio's memory wiped. Beyond that, no.

 

This makes Artoo one of the more bizarre characters in the entire canon... he meets A LOT of people who he'd interacted with before that don't recognize him or comment on that at all, he has a ton of information that would be useful to the people he's hanging out with that is never shared, etc.  I'll write off Artoo not recognizing Obi-Wan, dude visually aged 30 years in about half that time, he forgot that double the suns means double the SPF on your Coppertone. But Artoo and Yoda know one another pretty fucking well, they're both just method acting on Dagobah, I guess? Artoo knows who Luke's dad is and says nothing, what a dick.

 

At least there was a consistent vision with one guy in charge, amirite?  

[SaysWho?]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Interesting because I started with episode 1 the Ambush and felt like I missed something. Disney plus has the pilot movie as well I assume? I'm about four episodes into the first season.

 

I actually remember that movie and its reviews and doing nothing at the box office. I never watched it. 

 

I didn't know it led into the new series.

[Kal-El814]

11 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Interesting because I started with episode 1 the Ambush and felt like I missed something. Disney plus has the pilot movie as well I assume? I'm about four episodes into the first season.

The episodes of The Clone Wars TV show DO NOT all happen in chronological order. Sometimes that's super obvious, other times it's not. It mostly works itself out beyond season 3, but if you start on Disney+ with S01E01, it can be weird for sure.

 

EDIT - Disney+ has the movie too, but that's not "first" either.  It introduces you to Ahsoka though, so it's notable for that. Beyond that it's kinda meh?

[johnny]

I’ve been using a list for how to watch the clone wars in the correct order. It’s okay so far. 

[Kal-El814]

6 minutes ago, johnny said:

I’ve been using a list for how to watch the clone wars in the correct order. It’s okay so far. 

The first two seasons are fine. Season three and on are quite good. 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

It's a pretty dark children's show at times... those clones get marked regularly I see. 

Oh man, there are some episodes that I do not know how it was rated for an audience as young. It’s not just the droids that get cut apart and there is at least one episode with actual living beings being burned alive, flailing around on fire, as they burn to death. At this happens in season two. lol

[Kal-El814]

7 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

Oh man, there are some episodes that I do not know how it was rated for an audience as young. It’s not just the droids that get cut apart and there is at least one episode with actual living beings being burned alive, flailing around on fire, as they burn to death. At this happens in season two. lol

There are more than a couple episodes that feature characters getting tortured pretty graphically for a kids show.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Well, there's "Clone Wars" (no "the"), the Genndy Tartakovsky 2D animated micro-series that bridges Episodes II and III (but has now been made officially not canon by Disney). Even though it's not canon it's very good and I recommend watching it.

 

Then there's "The Clone Wars" (with the "the"), a CG animated series. With The Clone Wars, it IS canon and also takes place between Episodes II and III. Note though with the CG animated series that there's a pilot film you need to watch first also called Star Wars: The Clone Wars (it's not very good) and then the show starts with season 1, episode 1, "Ambush". The CG animated series has its ups and downs, some episodes and story arcs can be pretty good (especially in later seasons) but some episodes and story arcs can be pretty rough (particularly in earlier seasons, like the first). 

George Lucas struck the 2D from canon before Disney even bought the franchise. You could see sign that he didn’t count it as canon in the commentary track for EpIII. The 2D show has General Grievous was very scary and proficient and at the end when he capture Palpatine, mace Windu force crushes his chest. Which was to explain why Grievous coughed in EPIII. But in the commentary Lucas said it was because the robotic parts and organic parts are not working well together. That he is flawed. 

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Interesting because I started with episode 1 the Ambush and felt like I missed something. Disney plus has the pilot movie as well I assume? I'm about four episodes into the first season.

 

Yeah, as @Kal-El814 says, chronological viewing order for the show is very different from the production order, but the pilot film was made first, in terms of production order so depends on your preference.

 

1 hour ago, Kal-El814 said:

The episodes of The Clone Wars TV show DO NOT all happen in chronological order. Sometimes that's super obvious, other times it's not. It mostly works itself out beyond season 3, but if you start on Disney+ with S01E01, it can be weird for sure.

 

EDIT - Disney+ has the movie too, but that's not "first" either.  It introduces you to Ahsoka though, so it's notable for that. Beyond that it's kinda meh?

 

I agree, chronological order is very different from production order but I like to stick to production order for the most part. But chronological order works too. 

 

12 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

George Lucas struck the 2D from canon before Disney even bought the franchise. You could see sign that he didn’t count it as canon in the commentary track for EpIII. The 2D show has General Grievous was very scary and proficient and at the end when he capture Palpatine, mace Windu force crushes his chest. Which was to explain why Grievous coughed in EPIII. But in the commentary Lucas said it was because the robotic parts and organic parts are not working well together. That he is flawed. 

 

Sorry, you are correct about that, good call.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, SaysWho? said:

 

I actually remember that movie and its reviews and doing nothing at the box office. I never watched it. 

 

I didn't know it led into the new series.

 

In terms of production order that is correct that it leads into the series. In terms of chronological order that's a different story.

[Kal-El814]

12 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

George Lucas struck the 2D from canon before Disney even bought the franchise. You could see sign that he didn’t count it as canon in the commentary track for EpIII. The 2D show has General Grievous was very scary and proficient and at the end when he capture Palpatine, mace Windu force crushes his chest. Which was to explain why Grievous coughed in EPIII. But in the commentary Lucas said it was because the robotic parts and organic parts are not working well together. That he is flawed. 

If we're going to be pedantic (and why not, if we're going to be discussing Star Wars canon) I don't think 2D Clone Wars was officially struck down until the Disney merger. Lucas just did the same shit with it that he did with most EU stuff... ignore it completely.

[CitizenVectron]

 

 

[Brick]

The Gendy 2D Clone Wars show is weird in that it introduces characters like Ventress, and style that would be brought over to the 3D show, so it feels like the 3D show continues on from there sort of, especially when Ventress is already known by the characters. The 2D show is entertaining, albeit over the top in a lot of ways, but had some good episodes (one where Anakin passes from Padawan to Knight, the introduction of General Grievous). 

[AbsolutSurgen]

4 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

You're free to interpret the ending that way but nothing on screen indicates to me anything other than Rey using light to defeat dark. I mean she flatly rejects the power of the Darkside in defeating The Emperor and uses his own power against him. There was nothing in that scene that said to me she was using light AND dark to defeat The Emperor. As far as the yellow saber goes, according to what I looked up quickly yellow sabers were employed by Jedi Sentinels who were basically the middle ground between Jedi Consulars and Jedi Guardians. 

https://ultrasabers.com/holocron/the-lore-history-behind-the-yellow-lightsaber/

 

Nothing indicating that a yellow saber is someone who draws on light and dark. It's just another color that Jedi used albeit a rare one.

One interpretation:

In the penultimate battle between Kylo Ren and Rey -- Kylo Ren is distracted by Leia, which allows Rey to defeat Kylo.  As Kylo Ren is dying, Rey saves him by Force healing him.  Similar to Vader in TLJ, one could argue that Kylo Ren has found balance with the force.

 

In the final battle, Rey is lying on the ground and hears the voices of the Jedi, which largely tell her that the light side of the force is with her (one notable exception is Anakin (sounded like Hayden Christiansen) saying something like "Bring balance to the force, like I did").  She gets up, filled with the Force ghosts of thousands of generations of Jedi, and challenges the Emperor (who is similarly filled with the power of thousands of generations of Sith).  Using the lightsabres of both Leia and Luke, she melts the Emperors face (like the Nazis in Raiders of the Lost Ark, a nod to another Lucasfilm property).  Cut to Rey, dead on the ground, representing the futility of the Jedi/Sith battle -- and the inevitability of mutual destruction.

 

HOWEVER, out climbs Kylo Ren -- still alive -- the representation of Rey's deviation from recent Jedi behavior.  He saves her.  Demonstrating that the balance in the Force is the one way to move forward.

 

Cut to the final scene, Rey buries Luke/Leia's lightsabres at the moisture farm where this all began -- symbolically ridding herself of the old Jedi order.  She pulls out her new Yellow lightsaber, that represents her commitment to doing things differently than Jedi's had been.  (And as I mentioned before, merging the Palpatines and the Skywalkers, to bring balance to the Force -- just as Anakin had (allegedly) done.)

 

(I recognize that Rey still has the Jedi text.  In TLJ, Luke admits to having never read any of the ancient Jedi texts -- and since they are in the "lost" first Jedi temple, we can assume that no "modern" Jedi had either.  We see Rey studying one of the books during her training -- which I can only assume was deliberate.  While it was never dealt with in the movie, the knowledge she gained from those texts helped guide her decisions.  Or perhaps this symbolized that modern Jedi's had strayed from the original teachings of the "first Jedi".)

 

I recognize that JJ's ending wasn't great (likely due to multiple re-writes, re-shoots, and complete changes, and 'cause JJ), and I am taking some creative license -- but I do think he was trying to signal the end of the Jedi/Sith war and the movement forward (led by Rey) to something of a balance to the Force with the ending of RoS.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

I like Grievous more in the 2D series. But he is more like how Lucas wanted him in the 3D series. A mustache twirling type of villain, as opposed to somebody who is a monstrous lethal threat. 
 

I did like the Ventress Anakin fight where he gets his scar, and his knighting ceremony. Both of those I feel should definitely still be canon. 
 

hard to say it was ever canon if George Lucas ignored it. That seems like it would be the very definition of NOT canon. 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

In the Kylo and Rey fight at the wreckage of the Death Star 2, I found the interpretation maybe a little different. She was fighting Ren. Angry at him for all he’d done. When Leia reaches Kylo and she stabbed him in that moment Rey felt two things. She felt Leia pass, and she felt Kylo become Ben. She didn’t just heal the saber stab wound. She healed the scar in his face too. She helped transform Kylo back to Ben. 
 

 

some people say they were disappointed we did not get any dialog from Driver as Ben solo, but we did. His entire conversation with the memory of Han, his father, he was already at that time Ben Solo. 

[CitizenVectron]

 

Lol.

[CitizenVectron]

ROS seems to actually be increasing the popularity (or at least appreciation) of TLJ. On Resetera, a poll on which ST film is the best currently stands at (1138 votes):

 

TFA: 33%

TLJ: 58%

ROS: 9%

 

[cusideabelincoln]

I finally saw it.  Short review: While it would still be bad, putting it on mute would be an improvement.  This is the Transformers: Revenge of the Dark of the Age of the Last Knight of Star Wars movies. Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo fucking dumb.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, cusideabelincoln said:

I finally saw it.  Short review: While it would still be bad, putting it on mute would be an improvement.  This is the Transformers: Revenge of the Dark of the Age of the Last Knight of Star Wars movies. Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo fucking dumb.

 

Yep, accurate.

[SaysWho?]

[SaysWho?]

This Reddit post about JJ's mystery box -- made a year ago -- was pretty wise, especially considering he really enjoyed both TFA and TLJ:

 

 

Here's the post copy/pasted in case the text is hard to read on your background:

 

Quote

Link to the Ted talk, watch it but it isn't completely necessary:

Ok so most this comes from watching his ted talk on story structure and having applied it to his films I only have one thought and that is J.J. Abrams doesn't understand what he's talking about.

I think his system of writing is fundamentally flawed especially how he uses star wars, in this ted talk, as an example because he missing two key bits of structure that makes a mystery box work in the first place.

1. Timing J.J. uses the example of Obi Wan Kenobi's introduction to exemplify this system. However he neglects that this only works because of the timing and how long the information is held from the audience. It's about 3 minutes before Ben Kenobi because Obi Wan and as such the audience doesn't have enough time to process or analyse information. This has a lot to do with audience expectation as it doesn't build any in such a short space of time as to disappoint. Now in TFA J.J. uses a similar thing with Supreme leader Snoke and in that film we are never given an answer at all, that's why 2 years later when the last jedi doesn't say anything audiences were disappointed. The mystery box was held on for too long and people theorised and planned out things better than anyone making a star wars film could ever hope for.

But the absolute worst part of this structure and ultimately why I'm writing this post is...

2) Execution. One of the biggest complaints about the last Jedi is that none of the mysterys set up in TFA are explained or executed. People have put blame on Rian Johnson but J.J. may have never planned out the answers to these questions. This is based on the fact that Rian Johnson has said that during pre production Abrams never brought up the answers or tried to shape the film to include them, and while yes this isn't damning evidence if in a "story centric" film planned out with these mystery boxes in mind the answers to said boxes never comes up in the planning it shows an innate misunderstanding of this theory as the whole point of a mystery box in screen writing is that there is an answer.

On a side note, while there is merit to mysterys without answers (what's in the box in pulp fiction let's say) in a practical story telling aspect you need resolution at least in the mind of the creative. Nolan knows if Cobb is in a dream or not, Taraentino knows what's in the briefcase and both of these men wrote there movies with this in mind even if they never brought it up within there movies. It's like a magic trick, the audience doesn't need to know how it's done or what happens but the magician sure needs to know what's going on.

In conclusion this long rant is basically me saying I really like TLJ and TFA but I'm not looking forward to episode XI because with J.J. at the helm I feel the movie will suffer because Abrams really doesn't understand how to do his own screenwriting theory correctly.

 

[CitizenVectron]

Right, he loves tension for the sake of tension, but never has an answer that will resolve it. Finn's whole "Rey, I need to tell you something in private" story from ROS is a perfect example. You are left wondering about it, and they hint at it a second time to remind you, but then he never gives enough of a shit to answer it.

[TheLeon]

I watched it again last night, with my sister and her husband. They’re both longtime Star Wars fans, and they came to similar conclusions. “That was fun, but also complete bullshit”.

[SaysWho?]

[CayceG]

14 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

 

I looked this up and found this:

Link to a Reddit post of many things that were allegedly cut or changed from TRoS

 

Disney is really at fault for a lot of this. 

I haven't finished reading the post yet, but I'm prepared to not blame JJ so much. We'll see if that holds. 

 

But here's a very disappointing sample:

 

[SaysWho?]

"Many blame TLJ for the stricter creative approach."

 

lol

 

Gonna wait before buying this source quoted by Reddit. They seem kind of... weird. This exchange:

 

Quote

the_great_ashby: "Wasn't Rian Johnson given too much freedom by Kennedy? 

Raven_McCoy_: "The thing is, is that JJ is a competent filmmaker and doesn’t suck Kathleen’s dick like Rian."

redvelvetcake42: "He was tasked with writing it so, kinda? More or less though we can see that Kennedy was stepped over by Iger. Kennedy did not run a good ship pre and post TLJ, Porgs were a massive failure (their version of Jar-Jar funny enough), the story of Luke being a giant dump taken on screen and Rey being disconnected from her group the entire movie led to a really poorly written and done Empire remake attempt."

onefinedaytobenude: "Lmao the ONE guy they shouldn't have given freedom to got complete control...every decision they made was the wrong one"

 

If this is the mindset there, especially someone like that Raven guy, then I dunno how reliable the OP is, his source or his source motive's.

 

This just seems like a low-key way to shit on TLJ because Luke didn't go nuts with a light saber, basically telling them everything they want to hear with cut crucial scenes that aren't detailed in the post and scenes that wouldn't have necessarily made the movie better (ex: speed jumping into Naboo). This is the Reddit's about section:

 

"Saltier Than Crait is a community for those who are critical of the recent new Star Wars revival from Disney and wish to have intelligent, respectful discourse about it."

 

Yo.

[CayceG]

I'm just taking the bullet points for what they are. Nothing more. 

 

And that leads me to be conflicted about the whole thing. I think that even what JJ intended might have been okay, but with JJ execution, yeah, it could fly over Disney execs' heads. So with meddling, I get why. 

Fuck the Mouse.

[skillzdadirecta]

16 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

"Many blame TLJ for the stricter creative approach."

 

lol

 

Gonna wait before buying this source quoted by Reddit. They seem kind of... weird. This exchange:

 

 

If this is the mindset there, especially someone like that Raven guy, then I dunno how reliable the OP is, his source or his source motive's.

 

This just seems like a low-key way to shit on TLJ because Luke didn't go nuts with a light saber, basically telling them everything they want to hear with cut crucial scenes that aren't detailed in the post and scenes that wouldn't have necessarily made the movie better (ex: speed jumping into Naboo). This is the Reddit's about section:

 

"Saltier Than Crait is a community for those who are critical of the recent new Star Wars revival from Disney and wish to have intelligent, respectful discourse about it."

 

Yo.

Yeah JJ fought so hard to make Finn/Poe happen that he cast one of his longtime favorite actresses in a role JUST to give Poe a romantic interest, Riiiiiiight. Also Rian Johnson is the one "sucking Kathleen Kennedy's dick" but BOTH Star Wars films that JJ made are the safe ones that took practically no creative risks? That doesn't even make any sense. Wait it does when you apply internet logic. Maybe Disney did lean on JJ to make a safer film that "appeases the fans" I wouldn't doubt it, but JJ is STILL responsible because it's HIS film.  

[SaysWho?]

4 minutes ago, CayceG said:

I'm just taking the bullet points for what they are. Nothing more. 

 

And that leads me to be conflicted about the whole thing. I think that even what JJ intended might have been okay, but with JJ execution, yeah, it could fly over Disney execs' heads. So with meddling, I get why. 

Fuck the Mouse.

 

What I'm saying is the bullet points come from a random guy in a salty Reddit from a random source. This isn't some entertainment reporter who has sources in the industry. I don't even know who these people are.