Movies ~*Colin Trevorrow's Star Wars: Episode IX - Duel of the Fates OT*~

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

 

I think we're talking about different things here. I thought skillz was talking about letting go of the past in-universe, which is what a tonne of people online seem to think that Johnson was referencing (incorrectly), that it meant that Johnson thought Luke and the Jedi should all be forgotten as failures, etc, even though obviously Yoda shows Luke the opposite. The Jedi were failures in some regards, but not in all. I agree that Johnson indicated in the meta-commentary (which is something great about the movie) that Star Wars needs to move on from the standard storylines and tropes that it keeps falling into. The meta-message of the movie is to pave new ground and move on, but the in-universe message realized by Luke by the end (that people don't get in many places) is that the past can't be forgotten or let go, that it serves a purpose as an example (to utilize legend as a message of hope). I think it stems from people disliking that Luke had given up after his failure with Ben (which many people can't seem to accept as realistic), so they believe the movie sends a message that Luke was a failure for making that mistake, and that he doesn't move past it. But he clearly does move past it by the end of the movie, as evidenced by his willingness to embrace his own power and give others hope.

Yeah we're on the same page... Yoda was trying to get Luke to NOT dwell on his failures and understand that the goal for every master is to teach their students to learn from THEIR failures and surpass them. Rian Johnson was saying the same thing, in a different way... that what came on the past is important but shouldn't hinder the future and he wiped the slate clean essentially for the next film to pretty much go beyond the past and JUST deal with the conflict between the new characters... and JJ said eff that 

The Rise of Skywalker is not a terrible film... it's just a repetitive one that played it safe and repeated beats we had seen in previous movies. It didn't add anything new and for some folks that's cool. But considering what Rian Johnson set him up for, the film could have been so much more. As it is, it's just an OK Star Wars movie.

[AbsolutSurgen]

I am late to this party, but finally had a chance to see Rise of Skywalker this afternoon (after re-watching TLJ last night).

 

My god, what a ride.  It was poorly edited (both the script and the movie) -- but was a shit-ton of fun.  There was spectacle.  There were huge set-pieces.  There were epic displays of the force.  Star Wars at its heart is a space-fantasy-western Saturday morning serial.  And this, is what this movie fucking was.  And I enjoyed every minute.

To me, Star Wars has never been a "living-breathing" universe.  Lucas made it up while he went along -- and I am comfortable with other filmmakers doing the same.

 

It was not a "good" movie.  It was not an example of the excellence of the craft of filmmaking.  (But were any of the previous movies?)  I recognize that given more time on the script, and post-production -- this could have been a MUCH better movie.  But, it sure was fun -- something that was mostly lacking in TLJ.

 

My Star Wars movie ranking:

Empire - A New Hope -- Return of the Jedi - Rogue One -- Rise of Skywalker - The Force Awakens - Attack of the Clones - Solo - The Last Jedi - Phantom Menace - Revenge of the Sith

 

Random thought:

Bad science in a Star Wars movie?  How about: 1) faster than light travel, 2) gravity on spaceships, 3) noise in space, 4) The Force, 5) tractor beams, 6) density of asteroid belts, etc..  This is a sci-fi fantasy series that has pretty much always ignored science.  Being able to breathe on an asteroid is one of the smallest problems I can remember.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

The lesson was don’t let your failures define you. Learn from them to be better. 
 

the Jedi failed. Failed miserably. Should they be ended forever? No. Should they be become better than their forebears? Absolutely. 
 

Kylo wanted to burn away everything from the past, and Luke at the end was essentially telling him that it won’t happen. The Jedi will continue on. Hope will continue on. 

[SaysWho?]

 

Haha.

[Guest]

I didn’t know Karina and Rian were married. I thought he just had and Internet crush on her 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

 

I disagree. There’s being alone and not belonging, and then there is where Rey is at the end. She has friends and through the Force she’s connected to people long gone. She is not the same abandoned girl we saw at the beginning of TFA. 

[5timechamp]

..... so on the subject of letting the past die, was there too much reliance on the old characters in the new trilogy or was the balance just right?

 

In the force awakens the search for Luke and reverence to Vader frame the early narrative but Rey, Poe, Kylo, BB8, and Finn are doing fine establishing character dynamics when suddenly Han pops in and halts the momentum of everything and the new characters become secondary and reactionary.., did u feel the films had enough balance between old and new? or was it a crutch?

 

Dont get me wrong I love Chewies “fuck you asshole” before he takes aim and blasts Kylo..

[johnny]

Looooool

[Mercury33]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

It was not a "good" movie.  It was not an example of the excellence of the craft of filmmaking.  (But were any of the previous movies?)  I recognize that given more time on the script, and post-production -- this could have been a MUCH better movie.  But, it sure was fun -- something that was mostly lacking in TLJ.

Yes. The Last Jedi is objectively an extremely well made and excellent film. 
 

Also it’s odd that you criticize TLJ for not being fun yet list Empire as your favorite film. A film that is also decidedly “not fun” in tone. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, johnny said:

Looooool

I’ve said it before and I’ll keep saying it, the film

is creatively bankrupt.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

It was not a "good" movie.  It was not an example of the excellence of the craft of filmmaking.  (But were any of the previous movies?) 

 

Yes... A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back and The Last Jedi are all objectively well made movies. The script for a New Hope was routinely used in screenwriting classes to illustrate classic three act structure and a text book example of Jospeh Campbell's The Hero's Journey. Empire is a roller coaster ride of a chase movie and The Last Jedi is just a great, well made movie brimming with subtext that flew over most guy's heads. Added to the fact that at the time it came out, A New Hope was revolutionary in it's use of SFX technology. What Lucas achieved with that movie at the time really can't be understated and we take it for granted because he brought big budget production values and cinematic sensibilities to a genre that up until that point had just been fodder for cheap drive in movies.

 

Quote

.  Being able to breathe on an asteroid is one of the smallest problems I can remember.

 

That was the point that @SaysWho? was trying to make... the films always had wonky science because they were never based in science and when we were kids, it didn't matter because no one gave a shit. Modern day "fans" started to project that stuff onto a series that never took itself seriously in that regard before. It was really silly.

[AbsolutSurgen]

47 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

Yes. The Last Jedi is objectively an extremely well made and excellent film. 
 

Also it’s odd that you criticize TLJ for not being fun yet list Empire as your favorite film. A film that is also decidedly “not fun” in tone. 

I was never a film major, so I can't have an intelligent conversation on whether it is a "well-made" film.  I can only say that I enjoyed TLJ less than many of the other films.  I didn't like where it took the characters of Luke and Poe  I thought Rian treated Hux like a Saturday morning cartoon villain.  I didn't think it had the same "spectacle" as other Star Wars movies (relative to other movies of their era).  While I don't have the same vitriol as others, I don't think my POV is unique.

 

31 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Yes... A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back and The Last Jedi are all objectively well made movies. The script for a New Hope was routinely used in screenwriting classes to illustrate classic three act structure and a text book example of Jospeh Campbell's The Hero's Journey. Empire is a roller coaster ride of a chase movie and The Last Jedi is just a great, well made movie brimming with subtext that flew over most guy's heads. Added to the fact that at the time it came out, A New Hope was revolutionary in it's use of SFX technology. What Lucas achieved with that movie at the time really can't be understated and we take it for granted because he brought big budget production values and cinematic sensibilities to a genre that up until that point had just been fodder for cheap drive in movies.

My memory may be bad, but weren't we discussing a few weeks ago how you thought that the acting of the protagonists of those films suffered from "bad acting"?

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

54 minutes ago, 5timechamp said:

..... so on the subject of letting the past die, was there too much reliance on the old characters in the new trilogy or was the balance just right?

 

In the force awakens the search for Luke and reverence to Vader frame the early narrative but Rey, Poe, Kylo, BB8, and Finn are doing fine establishing character dynamics when suddenly Han pops in and halts the momentum of everything and the new characters become secondary and reactionary.., did u feel the films had enough balance between old and new? or was it a crutch?

 

Dont get me wrong I love Chewies “fuck you asshole” before he takes aim and blasts Kylo..

The only old character that really seemed like there was a place for them in this trilogy was Luke.  Everyone else was utterly and completely disposable.

[johnny]

Rian treated Hux like a cartoon villain (Not true) but JJ makes him the spy, and btw he has to announce to us he is the spy by saying IM THE SPY, and then gets killed like 10 mins later? And the old guy is basically new Hux and has this important job but we don’t know this fuckin guy. 

Hux was in a fantastic spot for ROS to possibly attempt to overthrow Kylo but the emperor nonsense got in the way again. I liked the spy idea but the execution sucked balls. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

24 minutes ago, johnny said:

Rian treated Hux like a cartoon villain (Not true) but JJ makes him the spy, and btw he has to announce to us he is the spy by saying IM THE SPY, and then gets killed like 10 mins later? And the old guy is basically new Hux and has this important job but we don’t know this fuckin guy. 

I felt that he treated Hux "like an idiot buffoon", similar to how vilians are treated in kids cartoons.  Particularly in the first few minutes of the movie, where Poe is pretending he is on hold for Hux.

[Mercury33]

1 minute ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

I felt that he treated Hux "like an idiot buffoon", similar to how vilians are treated in kids cartoons.  Particularly in the first few minutes of the movie, where Poe is pretending he is on hold for Hux.

Thats Poe’s character. He does that to Kylo Ren in the opening scene of TFA too. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

Just now, Mercury33 said:

Thats Poe’s character. He does that to Kylo Ren in the opening scene of TFA too. 

I was referring to Hux in that scene.

[5timechamp]

2 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

I was referring to Hux in that scene.

but the director is showing consistency with the Poe character as seen in TFA and not making a judgement of Hux

[Mercury33]

2 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

I was referring to Hux in that scene.

I know. I’m saying the precedence for that kind of interaction with Poe had already been set in the first 15 minutes of the new trilogy. Plus Hux was already really over the top in the first film as well. Not to a comedic level but I’d say to a pretty comical level. If that makes sense. I’m just saying it didn’t seem out of place to me🤷🏻‍♂️

[skillzdadirecta]

46 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

 

My memory may be bad, but weren't we discussing a few weeks ago how you thought that the acting of the protagonists of those films suffered from "bad acting"?

I thought Mark Hamill's acting was bad and amateurish in A New Hope, yes (so did he)... I also remember saying he got better as time went on. His hokey acting doesn't change the fact the scripts for both A New Hope were very well structured and are taught in classes on how to do classic three act structure.

 

40 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

The only old character that really seemed like there was a place for them in this trilogy was Luke.  Everyone else was utterly and completely disposable.

Leia had a place as well but Carrie Fisher dying seemed to throw a lot of her arc out of the window.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, 5timechamp said:

..... so on the subject of letting the past die, was there too much reliance on the old characters in the new trilogy or was the balance just right?

 

In the force awakens the search for Luke and reverence to Vader frame the early narrative but Rey, Poe, Kylo, BB8, and Finn are doing fine establishing character dynamics when suddenly Han pops in and halts the momentum of everything and the new characters become secondary and reactionary.., did u feel the films had enough balance between old and new? or was it a crutch?

 

Dont get me wrong I love Chewies “fuck you asshole” before he takes aim and blasts Kylo..

 

I feel like that's what Rian Johnson did with The Last Jedi... he cleared the slate for all of the old characters to be done with or pushed to secondary roles. Even Leia at the end has basically passed on the mantle of leadership to Poe once she saw that he was ready...

 

 

"What are you looking at me for? Follow him!"

 

Luke passed the torch to Rey and Leia passed the torch to Poe. Kylo killed Snoke and took over the First Order and Finn fully committed to the Resistance and began to fight for something bigger than himself. Rian cleared the slate so that the next movie could focus exclusively on the Sequel Trilogy characters... and possibly new ones. And then came JJ.

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

10 minutes ago, 5timechamp said:

but the director is showing consistency with the Poe character as seen in TFA and not making a judgement of Hux

 

9 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

I know. I’m saying the precedence for that kind of interaction with Poe had already been set in the first 15 minutes of the new trilogy. Plus Hux was already really over the top in the first film as well. Not to a comedic level but I’d say to a pretty comical level. If that makes sense. I’m just saying it didn’t seem out of place to me🤷🏻‍♂️

I was referring to Hux's reaction to Poe.  Hux acting like a fucking moron and a gullible 6-year old,  has nothing to do with Poe "being consistent" with Poe's character.  It felt out of character "for Hux" for me -- not for Poe.

[SaysWho?]

Lol Hux was a Saturday mmrning cartoon in TFA

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

Lol Hux was a Saturday mmrning cartoon in TFA

That was my thought. He’s a super basic baddie from day one.

[johnny]

Going through the visual dictionary, Dominic Monaghan’s character has two whole pages dedicated to him. Rose has barely half a page lol. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Extensive interview with Chris Terrio (The Hollywood Reporter)

Quote

The Oscar-winning scribe dives deep into 'Rise of Skywalker' spoilers, including the debates over that final shot, Kelly Marie Tran’s diminished screentime and arguments the film is a repudiation of Rian Johnson: "I think it would be a bad misreading to think that that was somehow me and J.J. having an argument with Rian."

 

[Brick]

As SFLUFAN has previously said, after Hux's speech on Starkiller Base before firing the weapon, how could anyone take that little twerp seriously? 

 

 

As for the Rose scenes getting cut because of the Leia footage, I can maybe see it. It's stupid that happened in the first place, and that Rose got shafted, especially after the harassment Kelly Marie Tran received, and while I didn't love her or hate her character, I thought she was just fine, I actually was interested in seeing where her character would go and do in TROS. I don't think Disney caved and catered to the racists, do we really think Disney cares what a bunch of asshole white supremacists think? The optics are bad, and it's horrible and shameful that the filmmakers didn't avoid that, but I think it's just JJ focusing on the characters he created in TFA. 

[MarSolo]

Hux was an alt-right goon who thought he was a bigger deal than he actually was. He was basically those twerps carrying tiki torches.

[johnny]

 

[skillzdadirecta]

17 minutes ago, johnny said:

 

i wonder why he couldn't 

[Brick]

24 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

i wonder why he couldn't 

 

Cuz he can't write genre fiction period. 

[skillzdadirecta]

48 minutes ago, Brick said:

 

Cuz he can't write genre fiction period. 

Probably right... with genre stuff he's what, 0-3? 

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Probably right... with genre stuff he's what, 0-3? 

 

To be fair he was brought onto Batman v Superman very late in the process by Ben Affleck, who directed his screenplay Argo (it was a David S. Goyer written film before that, hence why it's so bad in a Goyer way). And we all know Justice League was a shit show from the start due to the attempt at a change in tone after Batman v Superman bombed from "grimdark" to something more akin to the MCU in an attempt to "right the ship" (shooting started just days after Batman v Superman opened theatrically) and the change in director from Snyder to Whedon late in the process and the massive reshoots. But I'd credit Terrio more at least to Justice League than Batman v Superman. Even with The Rise of Skywalker JJ Abrams co-wrote it and directed it (as he did with TFA) so how much of it falls on the main creative guy making the movie (Abrams) or just some co-writer in Chris Terrio (or both of them) is a matter of proportionality. I'd say 70% Abrams, 30% Terrio.

 

Either way, you definitely could say 0-3 in terms of credits. He's definitely proved he can't write genre fiction. 

[Brick]

He doesn't even have that many screenwriting credits. Seriously, go IMDb him. How he got something as big as Star Wars with such a spotty record is baffling. 

 

After Treverrow was removed they should have just pushed this film to May of 2020, or even December of 2020 if they really want to keep Marvel in May and Star Wars in December thing. I know the delayed it from originally coming out in May of 2019, but clearly that wasn't enough time. They should have given themselves enough time to find a competent and new director instead of rushing to Abrams (oh how I wish Johnson wrote and directed Episode IX). 

 

I get it, Disney is a publically traded company, and they have shareholders to please, so the business and cash is going to take precedent over us fans and the art, but fuck I wish they had just taken the hit in order to deliver us a better movie. 

[IdeaOfEvil]

Disney should have hired Josh Trank again, lol... He couldn't have done any worse with what we got