Greatoneshere Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 2 hours ago, CitizenVectron said: I really wish (starting with the PT and through the ST), Lucas had been in charge of the story treatments, some other writer had been in charge of the scripts, and then some other directors had been in charge of the actual shooting. You mean like how they did it with the OT? 2 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said: Yeah that's pretty much my take on it. I'd be curious to see what he could do left to his own devices with no directors to fuck his work up. Agreed, I would be too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 2 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said: He has an Oscar man... that means something in Hollywood. So him getting these jobs is not surprising to me... he was hot shit after winning that Oscar and these deals are often made years in advance. Either way, I don't think he's the problem with these films as @Greatoneshere pointed out. Yep, exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 50 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said: Out of place in that it portrayed the hero of the previous trilogy as an uncaring, grumpy old man, Yeah as I said in my previous post, The Force Awakens did that because that was the film that established that Luke sent himself into exile after Kylo ren turned to the Darkside. JJ set that up, not Rian. Rian took what he was given and expanded on it. 12 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said: Luke's motivations for going into exile were unknown. Lol no they weren't... Han says CLEARLY why Luke went into exile, I'll have to find the clip but we know it was because Kylo turned and Luke blamed himself. I think either Han or leia said it... I just watched it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: Lol no they weren't... Han says CLEARLY why Luke went into exile, I'll have to find the clip but we know it was because Kylo turned and Luke blamed himself. I think either Han or leia said it... I just watched it You are right on point - Han says it to Rey and Finn when Han first meets them. He explains that Luke "went to go find the first Jedi temple" after failing Ben Solo and losing his Jedi school and becoming disillusioned with everything as a result. Luke didn't give up on himself and go into exile to find the first Jedi temple until after what happened with Ben Solo and the Jedi school but this was indeed all established in TFA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spawn_of_Apathy Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 46 minutes ago, MarSolo said: Hux was never a serious villain. Stop this nonsense. He may not have been serious, but he was still portrayed to be a threat in TFA, just because of his enthusiasm for grand homicide. 45 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: I can totally see that. There was ZERO indication in A New Hope that the Emperor had any connection to The Force. Tarkin explicitly says to Vader that he is "the last remnant of a forgotten religion" or something to that effect. BUT, I will say that after watching Revenge of The Sith yesterday, I don't think most people knew that Palpatine was a Sith Lord. He tells everyone that he was disfigured in an attempted assasination by the Jedi. So I can totally see most in The Empire thinking that Vader was the last one left. Both in Legends and Canon Palpatine did in fact hide his being a Sith. He did not want people knowing he was even a force user. As far as the Galaxy was concerned, Vader and the Jedi her killed were all the Force users left. And Vader was ok, because he was a hero of the Empire and the Emperor’s right hand. 7 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said: Luke's motivations for going into exile were unknown. There were ways that could have been handled without turning him into a grumpy old man. IMHO, Rian subverted expectations from the first movie. Some people liked what he did, others did not. JJ could have done a lot of things. All of the internet theories of Snoke being Darth Plagueis run counter to that. While some of the details were unknown, many rightly assumed the reason for Luke’s exile was because of Kylo destroying the temple and killing the Jedi learners there. Assuming it was extreme grief over what happened and an unwillingness to kill his nephew. It was the portrayal of the temptations to murder Ben that many took issue with. They’d rather Ben have just been bad and murdered everyone because he’s bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 12 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: It's because he won an oscar for writing Argo and when Affleck brought him on to do on-set rewrites of Batman v Superman and then brought him on to write Justice League that was that, he was a blockbuster movie screenwriter. That's how it happened. The reason so many blockbuster movies are bad is because almost always, the writers have a very spotty track record, but they are writers who don't care so they'll take studio and producer notes and make a safe, stupid movie. That's why we get so few truly excellent Hollywood blockbuster films like Logan, Blade Runner 2049, The Dark Knight and Mad Max: Fury Road (you know, the standard mainline Star Wars films should be going for, yet people are accepting Rise of Skywalker as "good" lol). It all starts with writers, and Hollywood blockbuster films usually hire trash writers. This is where we disagree... most screenwriters in Hollywood are not "trash". It's hard to even make it to that level if you can't write. The reason why we get so many poorly written blockbusters is because of directors and producers. They note the ever living FUCK out of writers and the writers HAVE to at least attempt to incorporate their notes. Unlike in TV writers have very little power on movies and if they don't incorporate the notes of the director and producer, they can easily be fired and replaced. Even if they manage to turn in a draft of a script that is untouched, the director can still fuck it up or make changes on set during production and even in post. When a movie fails, the LAST person I will blame will be the writer... unless it's David Goyer who has actually proven that he sucks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 7 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: This is where we disagree... most screenwriters in Hollywood are not "trash". It's hard to even make it to that level if you can't write. The reason why we get so many poorly written blockbusters is because of directors and producers. They note the ever living FUCK out of writers and the writers HAVE to at least attempt to incorporate their notes. Unlike in TV writers have very little power on movies and if they don't incorporate the notes of the director and producer, they can easily be fired and replaced. Even if they manage to turn in a draft of a script that is untouched, the director can still fuck it up or make changes on set during production and even in post. When a movie fails, the LAST person I will blame will be the writer... unless it's David Goyer who has actually proven that he sucks I mean, I dunno - I'm focusing specifically on blockbuster films and in my experience - Transformers, Star Trek, GI Joe, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, etc. - they all have bad writers with only bad credits on their resumes. Could they be good? Maybe - I agree, studios and producers usually pulverize movies into being safe and bad, but with writers' help and that's on them to some degree. In all my years looking up writers for movies, especially blockbuster writers since I'm usually most interested in those films, their credits are almost always universally bad. It's definitely a trend - and I agree it's studio and producers' faults, but its' writers' faults too somewhere in there. But I do want to emphasize I agree that writers have the least power in the room but that doesn't mean you do the job and do it shitty. I'd rather be fired, but I'm like that with work. But like I said, many of these blockbusters writers are like David S. Goyer. But I do sympathize with the tough position their in. The entire industry should honestly try to trust writers a lot more (within reason). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spawn_of_Apathy Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 To me the biggest surprise about Luke in TLJ was not a grumpy old man riddled with regret, it was that he had completely cut himself off from the Force and had no idea what was even going on. that look at the end of TFA from him to me almost read as “you shouldn’t have come”. Which I guess still worked. But man, that kind of hit me when he didn’t know what happened to Han. The deleted scene where he actually takes it in, fucking amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brick Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 3 hours ago, CitizenVectron said: This is the company that refuses to put gay characters in their movies for fear of losing money internationally, and goes as far as cutting gay character moments in ROS in Asian markets. So yes, I believe that they will cater to racists if it thinks it will make them more money. I don't think that's the same thing at all. The Chinese market is one thing because of how big it is, and how companies will fold under them (just like Blizzard recently did), so the same sex kiss can easily be removed because it's one shot with no major characters in it (although with Thor Love and Thunder having Valkyrie searching for her queen that'll be interesting how that does in China), but something like reducing a character's role in a sequel because racist assholes were mean to her? No, sorry I don't buy that. As much as Disney might play it safe with some things, I don't think they sent a studio note to JJ telling him to minimize Rose's role because of their racist market not liking the character. We all know that the majority of the complaints about Rose were coming from disingenuous bigots, just like a loud minority were also complaining about the movie as a whole, and we're just dweebs discussing on a small independent Internet forum, so Disney with all their market research, private sales data, and teams of people working on this kind of stuff KNOW that the vast majority of the complaints about The Last Jedi were overblown. I simply look at Rose's reduced role as JJ focusing on the characters he created, and not knowing what to do with her, and the small scenes she did have unfortunately got cut. I wish she had been in the movie more, because even if there wasn't this whole harassment against the actress, to have a big character from the last movie suddenly not having much to do is just weird. A character that isn't a fighter is a nice addition to Star Wars, so she could have instead used her engineering and mechanical skills to create something to help in the fight against the First Order. Brains rather than brawn. Shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 7 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: I mean, I dunno - I'm focusing specifically on blockbuster films and in my experience - Transformers, Star Trek, GI Joe, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, etc. - they all have bad writers with only bad credits on their resumes. Could they be good? Maybe - I agree, studios and producers usually pulverize movies into being safe and bad, but with writers' help and that's on them to some degree. In all my years looking up writers for movies, especially blockbuster writers since I'm usually most interested in those films, their credits are almost always universally bad. It's definitely a trend - and I agree it's studio and producers' faults, but its' writers' faults too somewhere in there. But I do want to emphasize I agree that writers have the least power in the room but that doesn't mean you do the job and do it shitty. I'd rather be fired That's a a noble attitude but a bit unrealistic. Once you establish a reputation as being uncooperative then you're done and the phone stops ringing. That's why a lot of writer take the "one for them and one for me" approach. I'm just going off of the experiences of friends who ARE writers and have gone through this exact process. Also given the movies you listed, me thinks you may be expecting a bit much from them. These big budget films are designed to be as broad and inoffensive as possible to as wide an audience as possible. Doing anything more than that and you risk alienating the audience... The Last Jedi is a PERFECT example of this as it challenged the audience a little bit and that was too much for some folks. Don't place so much emphasis on a writer's credits in assessing their talent. Some COULD be hacks... Like David Goyer who clearly is, but most are just folks doing what they cant to keep working. TV is different because writers have MUCH more power there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 26 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: That's a a noble attitude but a bit unrealistic. Once you establish a reputation as being uncooperative then you're done and the phone stops ringing. That's why a lot of writer take the "one for them and one for me" approach. I'm just going off of the experiences of friends who ARE writers and have gone through this exact process. Also given the movies you listed, me thinks you may be expecting a bit much from them. These big budget films are designed to be as broad and inoffensive as possible to as wide an audience as possible. Doing anything more than that and you risk alienating the audience... The Last Jedi is a PERFECT example of this as it challenged the audience a little bit and that was too much for some folks. Don't place so much emphasis on a writer's credits in assessing their talent. Some COULD be hacks... Like David Goyer who clearly is, but most are just folks doing what they cant to keep working. TV is different because writers have MUCH more power there. I agree TV is very different and I agree that being uncooperative means you probably won't get to write any more Hollywood blockbuster films. But would you rather have your name on Batman v Superman, Justice League, and The Rise of Skywalker? Personally, as a writer who takes his work seriously, I genuinely would not if I didn't think I could write what I think needed to be written (within reason). Granted, the mountains of money may change my mind, I can't say for sure on that one. And of course I agree as to why blockbuster films are written like they are - because they are meant to, indeed, be broad and inoffensive (as I said in my original post). It sucks, but that's why bad writers are hired (or, good writers with only bad work on their resumes?). There are a lot of David S. Goyer's out there: Robert Orci & Alex Kurtzman, Phil Hay & Matt Manfredi, Ehren Kruger, Art Marcum & Matt Holloway, Adam Cooper & Bill Collage, Josh Applebaum & Andre Nemec, Darren Lemke, David Dobkin, Jon Hoeber & Erich Hoeber, Evan Spiliotopolous, etc. I have a lot more names (that's just off of the top of my head) - check out what they've all done (film-wise) on IMDb, almost all trash blockbuster films. All of these guys are career hack Hollywood blockbuster writers and they keep getting work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 The creative arts at this level are both art and commerce. Given that it’s basically all contract work, taking a job that will feed your family for an extended period of time even if it’s a paint by numbers studio flick is fine. For some it’s just commerce, and I don’t fault them for that so long as they don’t pretended their script for Transformers 5 is actual art Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Just now, Greatoneshere said: I agree TV is very different and I agree that being uncooperative means you probably won't get to write any more Hollywood blockbuster films. But would you rather have your name on Batman v Superman, Justice League, and The Rise of Skywalker? YES. If it means I get to continue working doing what I love and support my family absolutely yes. You think people set out to make shitty films? They don't 15 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: It sucks, but that's why bad writers are hired (or, good writers with only bad work on their resumes?). More like solid writers who can deliver what the studio wants in a timely fashion. I'm not defending the practice, I'm explaining how it works. 17 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: There are a lot of David S. Goyer's out there: Robert Orci & Alex Kurtzman, Phil Hay & Matt Manfredi, Ehren Kruger, Art Marcum & Matt Holloway, Adam Cooper & Bill Collage, Josh Applebaum & Andre Nemec, etc. I have a lot more names (that's just off the top of my head) - check out what they've all done (film-wise) on IMDb, almost all trash blockbuster films. Yeah I don't do a lot of IMDB searching because at the end of the day IMDB only tells part of the story. Orci & Kurtzman and Ehren Kruger are the only names I recognize and I KNOW those guys are solid writers. I remember when I was in college Ehren Kruger was the hot new talent that everyone was raving about. As I said before, IMDB tells part of the story... even with writer credit, the script may have been tinkered with to point of being unrecognizable by the director and studio and the only reason the writer maintains credit is because of guild rules. I have two friends of mine who wrote an original script that was made into a movie. The director changed a LOT of the script and wanted co-writer credit on the script. Even though the final film sucked and the changes the director made were for the worse, my friends still fought for sole writer credit because they knew how important having a produced script would be for their careers regardless of the "quality". They took it to arbitration and won which is kinda rare in these cases. So if you're a writer who is very precious about their vision being maintained in the final product, then you probably would either want to work in TV or novels because feature filmmaking will always disappoint you. That's just the reality of the business. It doesn't mean that you suck as writer. It just means you know how to work in the system and are cool with that. Shit even David Goyer has a good, small film that he wrote and directed into his credit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 17 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: Yeah I don't do a lot of IMDB searching because at the end of the day IMDB only tells part of the story. Orci & Kurtzman and Ehren Kruger are the only names I recognize and I KNOW those guys are solid writers. I remember when I was in college Ehren Kruger was the hot new talent that everyone was raving about. As I said before, IMDB tells part of the story... even with writer credit, the script may have been tinkered with to point of being unrecognizable by the director and studio and the only reason the writer maintains credit is because of guild rules. I have two friends of mine who wrote an original script that was made into a movie. The director changed a LOT of the script and wanted co-writer credit on the script. Even though the final film sucked and the changes the director made were for the worse, my friends still fought for sole writer credit because they knew how important having a produced script would be for their careers regardless of the "quality". They took it to arbitration and won which is kinda rare in these cases. So if you're a writer who is very precious about their vision being maintained in the final product, then you probably would either want to work in TV or novels because feature filmmaking will always disappoint you. That's just the reality of the business. It doesn't mean that you suck as writer. It just means you know how to work in the system and are cool with that. Shit even David Goyer has a good, small film that he wrote and directed into his credit. I understand there are nuances, etc. but by your explanation writers are exonerated from any wrong doing whatsoever. That just isn't objective - their name is on it, they have done repeatedly bad movies, end of story. These guys are career hacks, they obviously don't care about good writing or they would have (a) stopped or (b) written something good on the side by now. At the end of the day you live with the results, not rely on explanations for bad work. There are numerous, excellently written feature films. There are far less specifically well written Hollywood blockbusters. You can work in live action films and still do good writing, no one has to do Hollywood blockbuster writing specifically. There are more and better mid-tier and indie and art house films every year than the one before that I can't even keep up anymore. Many are well written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spawn_of_Apathy Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 There is something I wonder. Obviously Disney wanted to make a Star Wars movie to make billions of dollars. But did anyone have a Star Wars story they wanted to tell? while the OT and PT were seemingly put together individually, with details coming together in the middle of production even, George Lucas went into each trilogy wanting to tell a specific story. OT was Luke coming into his own and the Rebels defeating an evil Empire. PT it was Anakin’s rise and fall, and the rise of the Empire. I’m not sure the ST had a single story arc somebody wanted to tell going into it. Like JJ, or Bob, Kathleen, or some writer coming in saying “I want to tell a Star Wars story about THIS.” and then that’s the story they tried to tell in a three act format. I know this has been touched on here, and I liked the ST, but I am leaning into the idea. Hopefully whatever they do next there is at least one story somebody REALLY wants to tell and not just “do it to make money” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbsolutSurgen Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said: Yeah as I said in my previous post, The Force Awakens did that because that was the film that established that Luke sent himself into exile after Kylo ren turned to the Darkside. JJ set that up, not Rian. Rian took what he was given and expanded on it. Lol no they weren't... Han says CLEARLY why Luke went into exile, I'll have to find the clip but we know it was because Kylo turned and Luke blamed himself. I think either Han or leia said it... I just watched it You're right. Han said that Luke felt responsible for what Kylo Ren did, walked away from everything, and went in search of the first Jedi temple. That leaves a lot of room for what could happen in the second movie. The creative decision to make Luke a grumpy old man was Rian's, not dictated to him by TFA 1 hour ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said: While some of the details were unknown, many rightly assumed the reason for Luke’s exile was because of Kylo destroying the temple and killing the Jedi learners there. Assuming it was extreme grief over what happened and an unwillingness to kill his nephew. It was the portrayal of the temptations to murder Ben that many took issue with. They’d rather Ben have just been bad and murdered everyone because he’s bad. They knew that Luke left because of what happenedwith Kylo killing the temple, and killing the learners their. What he hoped to find at the first Jedi temple, why he left a map behind (presumably to let others find him -- this was never dealt with), and why he had not yet returned, were not specifically addressed. Grumpy old man was only one of the alternatives Rian had open to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Don't think John Boyega is too happy about the final cut, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 22 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: I understand there are nuances, etc. but by your explanation writers are exonerated from any wrong doing whatsoever. You say you understand that there are nuances which is all I'm trying to explain and then proceed to ignore those nuances. I'm not saying ANYone is exempt from blame I'm just saying there's levels to this shit and when it come to screenwriting in Hollywood ESPECIALLY at the tentpole level, the writer is at the BOTTOM of the totem pole and everyone in the business knows and understands that which is why these guys keep getting hired. I even explained to you why it's more beneficial for a writer to have his name on a shitty film that was produced and distributed than on a hundred scripts that never see the light of day. And another reason these guys keep getting hired is because regardless of whether or not a bunch of folks on the internet think they suck, the movies they are credited with make TONS of money. I mean ChrisTerio is an Oscar winning writer who has now written a bunch of films that have grossed BILLIONS of dollars. With that kind of reputation, he's going to keep working regardless of what we think of the films he's written because at the end of the day, the powers that be know that he does his job. It's up to the director to deliver on that. Fillmmaking is NOT a writer's medium plain and simple and while they may bear some of the blame for the final film that results, they don't bear a lot. Do yourself a favor and listen to the commentary track for The Limey, a personal favorite film of mine, The writer is pissed at the director (Steven Soderbergh) for a lot of the choice Soderbergh made in shooting the film and that film was considered GOOD. The writer was still upset that ultimately he had so little control over HIS script. It just is what it is... Hollywood is a very dysfunctional place. No one is happy doing what they are doing Actors want to be directors Directors wish they were actors Writers want to be Directors Producers think they are writers Editors think everyone else is stupid Just what it is... But no I'm not excusing writers from the final product but I'm acknowledging how little control they have over that product. I'm also not gonna judge them for continuing to make a lot of money doing a job that most people would kill to do based on false notions of "artistic integrity"... regarding movies about Transforming robots and mutant Turtles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 13 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said: You're right. Han said that Luke felt responsible for what Kylo Ren did, walked away from everything, and went in search of the first Jedi temple. That leaves a lot of room for what could happen in the second movie. The creative decision to make Luke a grumpy old man was Rian's, not dictated to him by TFA Given the loss that he experienced did you think he would be jolly and happy that he was found? Yoda wasn't exactly sunshine and rainbows when he met Luke either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbsolutSurgen Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 7 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: Given the loss that he experienced did you think he would be jolly and happy that he was found? Yoda wasn't exactly sunshine and rainbows when he met Luke either. Yoda didn't throw Luke's lightsaber over his shoulder, and pretend he wasn't there for several days either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 21 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said: Don't think John Boyega is too happy about the final cut, lol. I’d be mad too if I spent the whole movie shouting Rey’s name and wanting to tell her my feelings for her and then JJ lied after the fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spawn_of_Apathy Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 22 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said: Don't think John Boyega is too happy about the final cut, lol. lol and again just skipping over the relationship between them in TLJ. smh If you look at their fist meeting and the impaling, then yeah, not much there. Makes about as much sense as a whiny brat ranting about murdering women and children like animals and then marrying them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spawn_of_Apathy Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said: Yoda didn't throw Luke's lightsaber over his shoulder, and pretend he wasn't there for several days either. Yoda was much older and wiser, but more importantly was there FOR Luke to go to. Yoda was only hiding from the Empire, not running from his failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spawn_of_Apathy Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 26 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: Given the loss that he experienced did you think he would be jolly and happy that he was found? Yoda wasn't exactly sunshine and rainbows when he met Luke either. To be fair, which is. It in canon now, Yoda would have rather trained Luke. Kenobi pushes for it to be Luke before he told Luke to go to Yoda for training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 44 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said: Yoda didn't throw Luke's lightsaber over his shoulder, and pretend he wasn't there for several days either. Luke didn't pretend she wasn't there for several days either wtf?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 41 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said: Yoda was much older and wiser, but more importantly was there FOR Luke to go to. Yoda was only hiding from the Empire, not running from his failure. Yoda ran too... I just watched Revenge of The Sith yesterday. As soon as he loses to the Emperors the first thing he says is "Failed I have, into exile I must go." This is before Luke and Leia are even born. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbsolutSurgen Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 10 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: Luke didn't pretend she wasn't there for several days either wtf?! Luke refused to acknowledge her until Chewie blew open the door. They have a conversation. Luke then begins to do his daily chores of getting milk/fish, while ignoring Rey. Later, after she finds the temple, and Luke finds her -- she says "I've seen your daily routine, you're not busy". I interpreted this as she had been following him around for some time. I could be wrong, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CayceG Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 I took it more as she was there with him for that day rather than several. It's like the question of how long were Han and Leia running at sublight speed in the Falcon after leaving Hoth? No one knows, but it was probably a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said: Luke refused to acknowledge her until Chewie blew open the door. They have a conversation. Luke then begins to do his daily chores of getting milk/fish, while ignoring Rey. Later, after she finds the temple, and Luke finds her -- she says "I've seen your daily routine, you're not busy". I interpreted this as she had been following him around for some time. I could be wrong, though. Like a Day at the most. Either way given what he's been through and what was set up in The Force Awakens, I'm not sure how much differently Rian could have portrayed him and have it make sense... and the whole map to Skywalker was once again JJ falling back on a McGuffin that doesn't make a lot of sense at the end of the day. I'm glad that shit wasn't explained because when you think about it, it was stupid. Not as stupid as the knife in RoS, but stupid nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brick Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 This guy's video goes into why Luke pretty much had to be hiding out and being a grump, and it's a good video too. The only other thing I've heard people suggest is that Luke could have gone to the fist Jedi temple in order to find something to beat the First Order, and OK if that had been the case, then what? Rey comes by and goes, "oh perfect, here I found a way to end this war, here let me train you in the ways of the Force"? Good stories rely on conflict. Luke not wanting to train Rey creates conflict, and if you don't have conflict, you have a boring story. That's part of why the Rose and Finn side story isn't as great as it could because there's no conflict between them; they both want the same thing and the same way to get it. Contrast that with the bickering between Leia and Han during their side adventure in Empire, as their romance is building. Yoda and Luke had conflict; Yoda is trying to train him, but Luke is being an impatient petulant brat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said: You say you understand that there are nuances which is all I'm trying to explain and then proceed to ignore those nuances. I'm not saying ANYone is exempt from blame I'm just saying there's levels to this shit and when it come to screenwriting in Hollywood ESPECIALLY at the tentpole level, the writer is at the BOTTOM of the totem pole and everyone in the business knows and understands that which is why these guys keep getting hired. I even explained to you why it's more beneficial for a writer to have his name on a shitty film that was produced and distributed than on a hundred scripts that never see the light of day. And another reason these guys keep getting hired is because regardless of whether or not a bunch of folks on the internet think they suck, the movies they are credited with make TONS of money. I mean ChrisTerio is an Oscar winning writer who has now written a bunch of films that have grossed BILLIONS of dollars. With that kind of reputation, he's going to keep working regardless of what we think of the films he's written because at the end of the day, the powers that be know that he does his job. It's up to the director to deliver on that. Fillmmaking is NOT a writer's medium plain and simple and while they may bear some of the blame for the final film that results, they don't bear a lot. Do yourself a favor and listen to the commentary track for The Limey, a personal favorite film of mine, The writer is pissed at the director (Steven Soderbergh) for a lot of the choice Soderbergh made in shooting the film and that film was considered GOOD. The writer was still upset that ultimately he had so little control over HIS script. It just is what it is... Hollywood is a very dysfunctional place. No one is happy doing what they are doing Actors want to be directors Directors wish they were actors Writers want to be Directors Producers think they are writers Editors think everyone else is stupid Just what it is... But no I'm not excusing writers from the final product but I'm acknowledging how little control they have over that product. I'm also not gonna judge them for continuing to make a lot of money doing a job that most people would kill to do based on false notions of "artistic integrity"... regarding movies about Transforming robots and mutant Turtles. You are correct - it's not that I'm ignoring the nuances (as I've been very well aware of them for some time) but I don't care. At the end of the day, no excuses. If your name is on it in a significant way, you have to live with your trash resume regardless of whether the writer themselves care or not, that is what they'll be measured against. I made an earlier post giving Chris Terrio much of a pass for Batman v Superman and Justice League and TROS so I'm not being unfair. A good writer would make it work within the system, and some writers have. These writers have not, so there is the ability to find a way to make it work. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not saying there aren't explanations for why it's difficult, I'm saying get it done or GTFO. Or we keep making mediocre blockbusters like TROS, and that'll be that. Originally, @Brick was wondering why Chris Terrio would ever be hired, and I said the system basically intentionally hires bad writers (or "makes" bad writers, if you prefer) to make easy, safe, stupid, mass consumption movies. The writers are a part of that system, so hence why I originally came at it from that angle, to answer his question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 19 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: Like a Day at the most. Either way given what he's been through and what was set up in The Force Awakens, I'm not sure how much differently Rian could have portrayed him and have it make sense... and the whole map to Skywalker was once again JJ falling back on a McGuffin that doesn't make a lot of sense at the end of the day. I'm glad that shit wasn't explained because when you think about it, it was stupid. Not as stupid as the knife in RoS, but stupid nonetheless. The whole "map to Luke" aspect of TFA makes no sense, I agree, and I just try to ignore it. And agreed, not nearly as stupid as the knife/Sith assassin subplot of TROS. But seriously, how does the map quest make any sense? As for TLJ, remember, people are all over space. Time dilation and all of that - many days could pass in one place while hours could pass in another, something like that, right? @legend Help me, you're my only hope, I've forgotten my time dilation principles, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbsolutSurgen Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 7 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: Like a Day at the most. Either way given what he's been through and what was set up in The Force Awakens, I'm not sure how much differently Rian could have portrayed him and have it make sense... and the whole map to Skywalker was once again JJ falling back on a McGuffin that doesn't make a lot of sense at the end of the day. I'm glad that shit wasn't explained because when you think about it, it was stupid. Not as stupid as the knife in RoS, but stupid nonetheless. 1) Why did Luke go to find the Jedi First Temple? For an ancient Jedi McGuffin? To find knowledge that would help him overcome his failings? To commune with Ancient Jedi Force Ghosts? 2) Why did Luke not come back? Was his ship destroyed, trapping him? Was he training, trying to gain Jedi enlightenment? Did he have a vision of the future, and he needed Rey to find him there? 3) Why did he leave a map behind with R2, that would allow others to find him? Did he want Rey to find him? Was he concerned that he would need to be rescued? There are tons of potential explanations that Rian could have chosen. You're also 100% right, the knife in RoS was really stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 54 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: You are correct - it's not that I'm ignoring the nuances (as I've been very well aware of them for some time) but I don't care. At the end of the day, no excuses. If your name is on it in a significant way, you have to live with your trash resume regardless of whether the writer themselves care or not, that is what they'll be measured against. I made an earlier post giving Chris Terrio much of a pass for Batman v Superman and Justice League and TROS so I'm not being unfair. A good writer would make it work within the system, and some writers have. These writers have not, so there is the ability to find a way to make it work. I'm not saying it's easy, I'm not saying there aren't explanations for why it's difficult, I'm saying get it done or GTFO. Or we keep making mediocre blockbusters like TROS, and that'll be that. Originally, @Brick was wondering why Chris Terrio would ever be hired, and I said the system basically intentionally hires bad writers (or "makes" bad writers, if you prefer) to make easy, safe, stupid, mass consumption movies. The writers are a part of that system, so hence why I originally came at it from that angle, to answer his question. Man you are HARSH Man Last point is these writers would contend that they ARE making it work in the system... I mean they are making a ton of money and in Chris Terro's case, he already has an Oscar so I'm sure he's sleeping well at night or as my man McBain would put it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 14 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: Man you are HARSH Man Last point is these writers would contend that they ARE making it work in the system... I mean they are making a ton of money and in Chris Terro's case, he already has an Oscar so I'm sure he's sleeping well at night or as my man McBain would put it Ack, maybe it is harsh (lol), it's just there's such potential for good blockbusters since often good directors are hired, but the writers are no good (or made to be no good). The sequel trilogy should have been the OT or Lord of the Rings. That's what Star Wars was. Instead, we got the Hobbit trilogy mixed with the prequel trilogy. It's just incredibly disappointing for this franchise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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