The Weird Rise of the ‘Post-Left’

[Greatoneshere]

3 minutes ago, TUFKAK said:

I can believe it, Prager U started showing up in my algorithm back when I was still active in bodybuilding and watching those videos, the pipeline to redpill chud is everywhere online now.

 

This is absolutely true. I'm not a bodybuilder but I work out, am very cishet, like practicing martial arts, I game a lot, I go on Discord and Twitch, etc. I get so many Pearl/Billie Rae Brandt anti-feminist woman clickbait/red pill nonsense myself even when I delete unwanted videos. I basically get the female version of Tate/Prager stuff as if women saying it will convince me instead. But this was a pretty quick pipeline I must say.  

[Jason]

5 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

Whatever the fuck Prager U is

 

Prager U is far-right propaganda designed to turn you into heyyoudvd.

[Greatoneshere]

Just now, Jason said:

 

Prager U is far-right propaganda designed to turn you into heyyoudvd.

 

I think you misquoted because that was SoberChef, not me.  

[TUFKAK]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

This is absolutely true. I'm not a bodybuilder but I work out, am very cishet, like practicing martial arts, I game a lot, I go on Discord and Twitch, etc. I get so many Pearl anti-feminist woman clickbait/red pill nonsense myself even when I delete unwanted videos. I basically get the female version of Tate/Prager stuff as if women saying it will convince me instead. But this was a pretty quick pipeline I must say.  

Oh god that, insert colorful metaphor here, was rampaging in my algorithm a few years ago and no matter what I did she just kept showing up. Like no nepo baby I don’t wanna see your content go away. 
 

It’s doubly frustrating because of these losers the very real issues men are facing get ignored because it gets associated with some of the worst actors in our society. 

[Jason]

15 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

I think you misquoted because that was SoberChef, not me.  

 

I did the highlight text to get a quote snippet thing from your post-quote of his post thinking it would attribute it to the correct person.

[Kal-El814]

1 hour ago, SoberChef said:

 

To be fair, all I did was share a YouTube video, literally the first I found after entering "Bill Maher the left has changed". Whatever the fuck Prager U is or happens to be or is whatever the fuck you seem to have an issue with it, all not my problem as I had legit no idea who or what that even is. As for your response, thank you for coming through just like I knew someone would in this thread.

Forgetting Prager U specifically for a moment (though it’s always worth looking into who’s content your consuming), the entire video is dogwhistle boobery. 
 

“I used to be progressive but…”

 

”Progressives say they’re tolerant but how tolerant can they be if they’re intolerant towards my intolerance?”

 

”Can you believe liberals want this ridiculous thing that we can all agree flies in the face of propriety and common sense?”

 

And so on and so on. As @TUFKAK and @Greatoneshere have said, it’s content specifically created to be the spoonful of sugar that helps the white, Christian, cis, straight “default” medicine go down. 
 

If you're curious about Dennis Prager, well… he was opposed to the first Muslim congressperson elected taking their oath on the Koran because it wasn’t the Bible, opposed gay marriage because he thought it’d be a slippery slope to parents marrying their children or siblings marrying or, GASP, polyamorous marriage. The dude sucks. 

[Reputator]

I sometimes wonder if there's an eventual line with progressivism that I won't cross. Like if 20-30 years what's considered progressive goes too far for me.

 

It's like how a lot of boomers who were into the peace movement, free love and all that were considered VERY liberal for their time compared to their parents, are now basically all chuds pretty much. My mom who is pretty racist doesn't think she is probably because compared to the environment she was raised in, she's very open-minded. I'm WAY liberal compared to my parents but where will I sit on the scale decades from now?

[CitizenVectron]

6 minutes ago, Reputator said:

I sometimes wonder if there's an eventual line with progressivism that I won't cross. Like if 20-30 years what's considered progressive goes too far for me.

 

 

 

"I was fine when they made robots to help around the house...but robot lovers?! I've had it up to here with these robosexual deviants!!!" - Reputator, 2034

 

  

6 minutes ago, Reputator said:

My mom who is pretty racist doesn't think she is probably because compared to the environment she was raised in, she's very open-minded. I'm WAY liberal compared to my parents but where will I sit on the scale decades from now?

 

Having the ability to recognize your own views/experience through introspection (and compare them against benchmarks) is a learned and valuable skill that many unfortunately do not have. There are a lot of people (majority?) who don't ever really just sit in silence (or while driving, etc) and think about their own internal experience and thoughts.

 

[TheBladeRoden]

18 minutes ago, Reputator said:

I sometimes wonder if there's an eventual line with progressivism that I won't cross.

There was a TikTok trend a month or so where people were going "you gotta read the Bin Laden letter guys it changed my life!" and I was like "if this is where the train is headed, Imma need to get off here"

[marioandsonic]

1 hour ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

"I was fine when they made robots to help around the house...but robot lovers?! I've had it up to here with these robosexual deviants!!!" - Reputator, 2034

 

 

 

I'm sad I probably won't live to see the day that robot wives become commonplace and affordable.

[MarSolo]

1 hour ago, TheBladeRoden said:

There was a TikTok trend…

And that’s where I got off the progressive train. The only TikTok I acknowledge is the song by Kesha.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

4 hours ago, Reputator said:

I sometimes wonder if there's an eventual line with progressivism that I won't cross.

 

The absolutely bone-headed responses of those Ivy League university presidents a few weeks ago in what should've been slam-dunk responses to questions about "genocide advocacy" on their campuses pretty much tip-toed up to the line for me.

[finaljedi]

I personally just keep clear of Israel and Palestine stuff in general.  There is also nothing on this earth that will make me ever give a shit about what the administration of Harvard does.  I'll admit sometimes on social issues I can be a little behind other people sometimes, but I like to think I get there at some point.

 

What kills me about this post-left or whatever you want to call it that these people like Dore, Taibbi, and others is how it seems to be the time the slippery slope isn't just a fallacy.  Because man it seems like a lot of them are just "I was progressive, then the left left me behind and now I really don't care for Mexicans and LGBTQ people"

 

edit:  Also I think a lot of it are people who are just getting old.  Like the comedians who seem angry that a set that killed in a theater tour in 2003 isn't funny now.

[Jason]

3 minutes ago, finaljedi said:

it seems to be the time the slippery slope isn't just a fallacy

 

Slippery slope itself isn't a fallacy, it becomes a fallacy when it's combined with begging the question, e.g. "if we legalize gay marriage next thing you know people will be marrying their pet dolphins".

[Greatoneshere]

Another group I've always been concerned about ever since the Joseph Lieberman/Tipper Gore days are pseudo-neo liberals. I'm curious what other users' thoughts here are on this and how significant or big a group you guys think this is, or if this is just an online loud minority. I've always seen myself as a true progressive of the left ever since I can remember (I was a politics nerd even when I was in my young teens) - meaning someone fighting for what we all here know are things like LGBTQIA+ rights, womens' rights, minority rights, etc. Someone who hopes one day all sentient beings are equal and we even treat all non-sentient beings as best as we can. And more. Anyway, I bring this up because one type of person I feel like I frequently run into on the left that bothers me are people who say they are liberal, on the left, etc. and they seem like they are. They believe in things like equal rights and so forth.

 

But, these people are also conservative on issues like sex, art, alcohol and drugs, etc. Straight edge liberals. A lot of Gen Z seems to be this way, where you hear about low sex rates and how they find sex scenes in movies uncomfortable (lol) and think we're violating the characters' consent by watching them have sex (what? all art is some form of voyeurism to begin with). Many tend to be prudish, don't party hard, etc. Some of this is good, things in moderation, be healthy, etc. But I begin to worry when the morality police start coming out because true progressivism is about as much freedom allowed as is reasonably possible. I worry these kinds of "liberals" are the type that would keep sex work outlawed when it should be made legal and regulated, as one example. I remember the arguments that "video games are too violent" back in the day from the left and I was like: "so we're going to limit and constrain art now?" which is very conservative thinking to me. I even hear things now like: "all art has a responsibility to present the right ethics and morals" and I'm like . . . what now? Every movie has to be a message movie now? Fight Club would never be made in such a cultural atmosphere. Fortunately there is more art than ever so no one should be wanting but I'm not sure how I see this as a leftist position? This also seems like a slippery slope/pipeline to falling in with the right wing pretty quickly, which is why I'm bringing it up in this thread about another group that used to be left that also have quickly now fallen in with the right. My mind goes to demure soccer moms in the midwest who just want to control everything just from a feeling of moral superiority from the left rather than the right. Liberal but religious people are frequently like this. Hedonism really bothers this group of people I feel like.

 

Any validity to any of this or am I just running into the select few?

[Reputator]

I've never heard of that group @Greatoneshere. How did you find out about them?

[Signifyin(g)Monkey]

11 hours ago, Reputator said:

I sometimes wonder if there's an eventual line with progressivism that I won't cross. Like if 20-30 years what's considered progressive goes too far for me.

 

It's like how a lot of boomers who were into the peace movement, free love and all that were considered VERY liberal for their time compared to their parents, are now basically all chuds pretty much. My mom who is pretty racist doesn't think she is probably because compared to the environment she was raised in, she's very open-minded. I'm WAY liberal compared to my parents but where will I sit on the scale decades from now?

I can already see cleavages in Gen Z and onward in response to applying trans identities to spheres beyond gender.  The response to the case of Rachel Dolezal and the idea of being ‘trans-racial’ was quite revealing, for example.

[Reputator]

7 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

I can already see cleavages in Gen Z and onward in response to applying trans identities to spheres beyond gender.  The response to the case of Rachel Dolezal and the idea of being ‘trans-racial’ was quite revealing, for example.

 

Oh god, trans-race... Yeah that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

 

In the future I could see "trans" being a stigmatized term, and people are simply the gender they identify as without any acknowledgement of their birth identity. On that same token, not being attracted to someone who is a woman, born a man, might also be stigmatized as discriminatory. It's interesting because when it comes to physical attraction, even amongst the most socially liberal individuals, there's some acknowledgement that race plays a role. And since we know attraction can be learned or nurtured, how long will it be before that's all stigmatized?

[Greatoneshere]

28 minutes ago, Reputator said:

I've never heard of that group @Greatoneshere. How did you find out about them?

 

It's not that it's a "group" per se (sorry if I misspoke there since I did say group) but more of an ideology or political persuasion that has always existed where the person believes themselves liberal but are themselves fairly prudish and reserved. Certain content, etc. (hence Lieberman in the 1990's) offends them like it would a conservative (as one example). I'm actually hoping someone can shed light on if this is a neo-liberal thing or something else.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

I would absolutley consider myself to be "liberal but prudish" but that reflects a personal preference rather than something that I'd impose on society at large, and I think you'd find that view is the overall view of the vast majority of those who believe similarly.

 

And, yes - I do find sex scenes in movies to be very uncomfortable to watch.

[GeneticBlueprint]

4 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

Another group I've always been concerned about ever since the Joseph Lieberman/Tipper Gore days are pseudo-neo liberals. I'm curious what other users' thoughts here are on this and how significant or big a group you guys think this is, or if this is just an online loud minority. I've always seen myself as a true progressive of the left ever since I can remember (I was a politics nerd even when I was in my young teens) - meaning someone fighting for what we all here know are things like LGBTQIA+ rights, womens' rights, minority rights, etc. Someone who hopes one day all sentient beings are equal and we even treat all non-sentient beings as best as we can. And more. Anyway, I bring this up because one type of person I feel like I frequently run into on the left that bothers me are people who say they are liberal, on the left, etc. and they seem like they are. They believe in things like equal rights and so forth.

 

But, these people are also conservative on issues like sex, art, alcohol and drugs, etc. Straight edge liberals. A lot of Gen Z seems to be this way, where you hear about low sex rates and how they find sex scenes in movies uncomfortable (lol) and think we're violating the characters' consent by watching them have sex (what? all art is some form of voyeurism to begin with). Many tend to be prudish, don't party hard, etc. Some of this is good, things in moderation, be healthy, etc. But I begin to worry when the morality police start coming out because true progressivism is about as much freedom allowed as is reasonably possible. I worry these kinds of "liberals" are the type that would keep sex work outlawed when it should be made legal and regulated, as one example. I remember the arguments that "video games are too violent" back in the day from the left and I was like: "so we're going to limit and constrain art now?" which is very conservative thinking to me. I even hear things now like: "all art has a responsibility to present the right ethics and morals" and I'm like . . . what now? Every movie has to be a message movie now? Fight Club would never be made in such a cultural atmosphere. Fortunately there is more art than ever so no one should be wanting but I'm not sure how I see this as a leftist position? This also seems like a slippery slope/pipeline to falling in with the right wing pretty quickly, which is why I'm bringing it up in this thread about another group that used to be left that also have quickly now fallen in with the right. My mind goes to demure soccer moms in the midwest who just want to control everything just from a feeling of moral superiority from the left rather than the right. Liberal but religious people are frequently like this. Hedonism really bothers this group of people I feel like.

 

Any validity to any of this or am I just running into the select few?

Here’s an X-cretion about what you’re talking about I read the other day. The thread is wild. Breaking the rule since it’s very relevant. 
 

https://x.com/pandershirts/status/1740117254652711134?s=46&t=IBAi9a_ZSuLPcOuNLyHstQ

[Jwheel86]

2 hours ago, Reputator said:

Oh god, trans-race... Yeah that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

 

 

Trans abled is a thing that spicy in the disability community. 

[Jwheel86]

I think a lot of this is the result Bernie losing and a clear leader of the progressive movement not being obvious. That loss of leadership scattered the left and opened up the left to the same grift that made MAGA popular, essentially when you tie the anti establishment that they both share. A lot of like the Dore and Bree types are probably progressive, but they're so anti establishment they view MAGA as an ally. Dore, before leaving TYT, said he wanted Trump to win because things would get so bad it would unify the left against establishment liberals who created the conditions for a Trump to rise. Bernie losing again despite Trump winning in 2016 turned them all extremely bitter and more extreme against the establishment, an extremism that the algo boosts, and right wing media funders are more than happy to bankroll (including Russians funding the Greyzone types).

 

[TUFKAK]

8 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

Another group I've always been concerned about ever since the Joseph Lieberman/Tipper Gore days are pseudo-neo liberals. I'm curious what other users' thoughts here are on this and how significant or big a group you guys think this is, or if this is just an online loud minority. I've always seen myself as a true progressive of the left ever since I can remember (I was a politics nerd even when I was in my young teens) - meaning someone fighting for what we all here know are things like LGBTQIA+ rights, womens' rights, minority rights, etc. Someone who hopes one day all sentient beings are equal and we even treat all non-sentient beings as best as we can. And more. Anyway, I bring this up because one type of person I feel like I frequently run into on the left that bothers me are people who say they are liberal, on the left, etc. and they seem like they are. They believe in things like equal rights and so forth.

 

But, these people are also conservative on issues like sex, art, alcohol and drugs, etc. Straight edge liberals. A lot of Gen Z seems to be this way, where you hear about low sex rates and how they find sex scenes in movies uncomfortable (lol) and think we're violating the characters' consent by watching them have sex (what? all art is some form of voyeurism to begin with). Many tend to be prudish, don't party hard, etc. Some of this is good, things in moderation, be healthy, etc. But I begin to worry when the morality police start coming out because true progressivism is about as much freedom allowed as is reasonably possible. I worry these kinds of "liberals" are the type that would keep sex work outlawed when it should be made legal and regulated, as one example. I remember the arguments that "video games are too violent" back in the day from the left and I was like: "so we're going to limit and constrain art now?" which is very conservative thinking to me. I even hear things now like: "all art has a responsibility to present the right ethics and morals" and I'm like . . . what now? Every movie has to be a message movie now? Fight Club would never be made in such a cultural atmosphere. Fortunately there is more art than ever so no one should be wanting but I'm not sure how I see this as a leftist position? This also seems like a slippery slope/pipeline to falling in with the right wing pretty quickly, which is why I'm bringing it up in this thread about another group that used to be left that also have quickly now fallen in with the right. My mind goes to demure soccer moms in the midwest who just want to control everything just from a feeling of moral superiority from the left rather than the right. Liberal but religious people are frequently like this. Hedonism really bothers this group of people I feel like.

 

Any validity to any of this or am I just running into the select few?

I think a lot of us who grew up when the Regan revolution was in full swing are prove to falling into the trap of still carrying water for neo-liberalism and believing we exist in a meritocracy. 
 

I came of age in a post Cold War/America ascendant with a booming economy and we made the connection that was due to the lies we were fed. I remember on IGN I got attacked for being pro union because I quoted my union number in a thread, as unions were nearly universally seen as a negative thing at that time.

 

It doubles when those people have achieved some success in life so they see it as a validation of their worldview. People like us who have achieved actual success under neo liberalism who are appalled by it and opposed to are still a minority, but growing in number, and this just references the economic aspect.

 

On cultural things, I’m more willing to accept shades of grey. I’ll use porn as an example, I believe porn should remain legal but it absolutely should be regulated due to the very societal harm it does cause so I can accept that not everyone will share my acceptance of the topic and I’m not sure where the line is on allowing expression and consumption vs regulating for the public good but it exists somewhere for sure.

[finaljedi]

3 hours ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

Here’s an X-cretion about what you’re talking about I read the other day. The thread is wild. Breaking the rule since it’s very relevant. 
 

https://x.com/pandershirts/status/1740117254652711134?s=46&t=IBAi9a_ZSuLPcOuNLyHstQ

 

Well that's a bummer, the sex positivity movement thing led to some good times in my early 30s, this younger generation is going to be insufferable when they hit 40.

 

2 hours ago, Jwheel86 said:

I think a lot of this is the result Bernie losing and a clear leader of the progressive movement not being obvious. That loss of leadership scattered the left and opened up the left to the same grift that made MAGA popular, essentially when you tie the anti establishment that they both share. A lot of like the Dore and Bree types are probably progressive, but they're so anti establishment they view MAGA as an ally. Dore, before leaving TYT, said he wanted Trump to win because things would get so bad it would unify the left against establishment liberals who created the conditions for a Trump to rise. Bernie losing again despite Trump winning in 2016 turned them all extremely bitter and more extreme against the establishment, an extremism that the algo boosts, and right wing media funders are more than happy to bankroll (including Russians funding the Greyzone types).

 

 

The teaching the dems a lesson crowd in 2016 were pretty bad.  I feel like we're starting to see shades of it again and this time they're up against a known fascist.  Maybe they'll chill out once the campaigns get into full swing.

[SuperSpreader]

5 hours ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

I can already see cleavages in Gen Z and onward in response to applying trans identities to spheres beyond gender.  The response to the case of Rachel Dolezal and the idea of being ‘trans-racial’ was quite revealing, for example.

 

This one was complicated for me. On one hand it's ok to have Eminem, to have other white rappers. To have black golfers, etc. (as it should be!) But the idea that a White woman can identify strongly with the Black experience was too far. Like the idea of wanting to be black was laughable, not right, beneath people. I don't know, this was one where I was like man, don't drag people and let her figure it out without the public shaming. 

[SuperSpreader]

5 hours ago, Reputator said:

how long will it be before that's all stigmatized?

 

I like what I like. 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

Wait, we're supposed to accept Rachel Dolezal's self-identification as Black? Ehhh, that's too far for me.

 

I dunno, I've definitely evolved over the years, but sometimes I do feel a bit alienated from the Left. I just don't know how far out of mainstream progressivism I'd fall.

[unogueen]

I am fine with progressive-ism so long long as it pertains to biological modals. This also assumes our human sense of sapience to be a defining factor in terms of validity. A fan of a foreign culture is not required to assume the lived experience, because that's impossible. As an Asian I have adapted to four different lands, but I am the other in all cases. This is not just a cut and dry denial. A Peruvian born metizo in Canada will probably have distinct experiences from mine above those of their own individuality. My experiences with various members of different Korean diasporas like Australia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, and the motherland offer broad experiences defined by their experience in their root origins, and as travellers in a third land. Culture and ethnicity is not to be defined by items and gestures. The history of any land is shaped by both natural and human events, along with internal and external factors that carry through along significant timelines. The people of those lands adopt that history and manifest it in their current life, towards their own future within their social net. That is where the corruption of appropriation is most damaging. You cannot subsume culture like consuming a fruit, or a book, or any particular THING. Culture is not a thing to grasp. It is a legacy of lineage, whether blood/land/psalm. You don't get to cut in the line.

[Spork3245]

I just want to note that Bill Maher wasn’t “left behind” as liberals progressed further to the left, he actively moved to the right and contradicts past stances that he once held. He also probably has brain worms from the amount of COVID he’s had.
He did a “New Rules” segment like a decade ago telling Republicans to stfu about movies and how they’re a work of fiction and to not take them seriously, now he bitches about the Barbie movie because “there are women on the Mattel board of directors so it’s not a patriarchy like in the movie!”.

[Reputator]

8 hours ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

Here’s an X-cretion about what you’re talking about I read the other day. The thread is wild. Breaking the rule since it’s very relevant. 
 

https://x.com/pandershirts/status/1740117254652711134?s=46&t=IBAi9a_ZSuLPcOuNLyHstQ

 

So "sex negative" means different things to different people, I gather. Either anti-porn, anti-physical abuse, or anti-public sex.

[SuperSpreader]

3 hours ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

Wait, we're supposed to accept Rachel Dolezal's self-identification as Black? Ehhh, that's too far for me.

 

I dunno, I've definitely evolved over the years, but sometimes I do feel a bit alienated from the Left. I just don't know how far out of mainstream progressivism I'd fall.

 

I don't think we needed to accept anything. But I think making a public mockery of it was too far. I don't agree with it but it seemed over the top response wise. Like let's make an example out of this one because it doesn't actually address any systemic issues and it's tabloid fun. I feel like the response itself was racist too. Like what she did was weird and wrong but there was a little bit of "lmao someone would actually want to be black" tinge to it. Like if a black woman acts white she's refined, but the other way around is unacceptable because black culture itself is not accepted. I dunno, everyone sucks. 

[TUFKAK]

3 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

I don't think we needed to accept anything. But I think making a public mockery of it was too far. I don't agree with it but it seemed over the top response wise. Like let's make an example out of this one because it doesn't actually address any systemic issues and it's tabloid fun. 

Additionally I can see a spectrum on racial identity where even trans racial identity could be relevant so mockery did nothing but shut down discourse on the topic. 

[GeneticBlueprint]

4 hours ago, Reputator said:

 

So "sex negative" means different things to different people, I gather. Either anti-porn, anti-physical abuse, or anti-public sex.

Well the edgy online gen z weirdos equate many forms of healthy sexual activity with abuse and too much skin in a photo with porn etc etc in a way that previous generation’s online weirdos don’t. It’s something to side eye for the time being but it could become a problem. 

[MarSolo]

6 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

I just want to note that Bill Maher wasn’t “left behind” as liberals progressed further to the left, he actively moved to the right and contradicts past stances that he once held. He also probably has brain worms from the amount of COVID he’s had.
He did a “New Rules” segment like a decade ago telling Republicans to stfu about movies and how they’re a work of fiction and to not take them seriously, now he bitches about the Barbie movie because “there are women on the Mattel board of directors so it’s not a patriarchy like in the movie!”.

I gave up on Bill Maher much later than I should have. I finally caved when he did that interview with Elon Musk and I swore he was about to get on his knees and blow the guy in front of the audience.