Japan would have surrendered in August, 1945, without the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Truman knew it

[CitizenVectron]

Opinion: U.S. leaders knew we didn't have to drop atomic bombs on Japan to win the war. We did it anyway

WWW.LATIMES.COM

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We've been taught that the U.S. had to drop atomic bombs on Japan to end World War II. Historical evidence shows Japan would have surrendered anyway.

 

Not really a current event, I suppose, but still good reading about a topic that is in the news again thanks to Oppenheimer. The bombs being necessary was 99% propaganda, and US leadership knew it.

 

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The accepted wisdom in the United States for the last 75 years has been that dropping the bombs on Hiroshima on Aug. 6, 1945, and on Nagasaki three days later was the only way to end the World War II without an invasion that would have cost hundreds of thousands of American and perhaps millions of Japanese lives. Not only did the bombs end the war, the logic goes, they did so in the most humane way possible.

 

However, the overwhelming historical evidence from American and Japanese archives indicates that Japan would have surrendered that August, even if atomic bombs had not been used — and documents prove that President Truman and his closest advisors knew it.
 

 

Once the US knew the Soviets were about to enter the war in the Pacific, it knew that the Japanese would surrender unconditionally:

 

Quote

Truman knew that the Japanese were searching for a way to end the war; he had referred to Togo's intercepted July 12 cable as the "telegram from the Jap emperor asking for peace."

 

Truman also knew that the Soviet invasion would knock Japan out of the war. At the summit in Potsdam, Germany, on July 17, following Stalin's assurance that the Soviets were coming in on schedule, Truman wrote in his diary, "He'll be in the Jap War on August 15. Fini Japs when that comes about." The next day, he assured his wife, "We'll end the war a year sooner now, and think of the kids who won't be killed!"

 

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While a majority of Americans may not be familiar with this history, the National Museum of the U.S. Navy in Washington, D.C., states unambiguously on a plaque with its atomic bomb exhibit: "The vast destruction wreaked by the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the loss of 135,000 people made little impact on the Japanese military. However, the Soviet invasion of Manchuria … changed their minds." But online the wording has been modified to put the atomic bombings in a more positive light — once again showing how myths can overwhelm historical evidence.

 

Quote

Before the bombings, Eisenhower had urged at Potsdam, "the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

 

Military leaders just wanted to test their new toy, and American leaders wanted to demonstrate it to the Soviets and anyone else who cared to see. Everything else is just an excuse.

 

This is probably not news to most of us here (I hope).

[Bacon]

The things people do to ensure the proliferation of monster girl hentai

[DarkStar189]

Feels weird getting older and realizing big things you were taught in school were false and people somewhere knew all along.  You have the atomic bombs here, and the Christopher Columbus stuff. I remember all the times looking at the food pyramid and seeing all of those wonderful servings of carbs I should eat. Feels strange.

[mclumber1]

I think one of the reasons why atomic bombs have not been used in war since August 1945 is because they were actually used in war in August 1945.  Everyone saw just how destructive they were, which really made leaders who had them at their disposal think twice about using them.  

 

In an alternate reality where the bombs were not used on Japan to end WWII, but both the Americans and Soviets developed the capacity to build and deploy these weapons, I have a hard time believing there wouldn't have been a nuclear exchange between the two countries over the course of the next 5 decades. 

 

 

[Nokra]

36 minutes ago, DarkStar189 said:

Feels weird getting older and realizing big things you were taught in school were false and people somewhere knew all along.  You have the atomic bombs here, and the Christopher Columbus stuff. I remember all the times looking at the food pyramid and seeing all of those wonderful servings of carbs I should eat. Feels strange.

This post reminded me of a book that has long been on my "to read" list: "Lies My Teacher Told Me". 

 

One of the lies that the book goes into is about the whitewashing of Columbus's legacy. Obviously now we know what a shit bag he was, but... apparently Columbus was one of the first people to send (indigenous) slaves back to Europe. I don't ever recall being told that in school. 

[CayceG]

I'm no defender of the decision to drop the Bomb, but not even the Japanese War Council knew they would unconditionally surrender at the time of Potsdam. 

 

Likewise, fucking MacArthur doesn't deserve any credit for finding Hiroshima and Nagasaki morally reprehensible when 6 years later he is begging to blanket North Korea with the same. 

[TUFKAK]

Let’s not forget the amount of lives saved in China and Korea by forcing the surrender. 
 

it’s curious how that’s always glossed over.

[Jwheel86]

6 minutes ago, TUFKAK said:

it’s curious how that’s always glossed over.

 

Or that Japanese cities were fire bombed. 

 

[TUFKAK]

4 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said:

 

Or that Japanese cities were fire bombed. 

 

This too.

[CastlevaniaNut18]

Finishing up To Hell and Back: The Last Train from Hiroshima and it talks about how several Japanese military leaders didn't want to surrender even after the bombs. They thought Japan could hold out and the US didn't have another ready to go yet.

 

I've never taken a firm stance on whether the bombings were the correct thing to do, but I'll read the article later. The effects were horrendous and I hope it never happens again. Will be visiting Hiroshima in a couple months and I'm sure that'll be a really somber day during an otherwise fun-filled 3 weeks.

 

As for the fire bombing of Tokyo, I recommend reading Black Snow by James Scott.

[TUFKAK]

Just now, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

Finishing up To Hell and Back: The Last Train from Hiroshima and it talks about how several Japanese military leaders didn't want to surrender even after the bombs. They thought Japan could hold out and the US didn't have another ready to go yet.

 

I've never taken a firm stance on whether the bombings were the correct thing to do, but I'll read the article later. The effects were horrendous and I hope it never happens again. Will be visiting Hiroshima in a couple months and I'm sure that'll be a really somber day during an otherwise fun-filled 3 weeks.

I, and many others, were openly weeping there so yeah, be prepared. 

[mclumber1]

I had the opportunity to visit Nagasaki in 2008 when my ship pulled into Sasebo, but none of my liberty buddies wanted to take the train trip.

[Uaarkson]

39 minutes ago, TUFKAK said:

I, and many others, were openly weeping there so yeah, be prepared. 

It’s quite an experience as an American. You can’t help but feel guilty.

[Chairslinger]

A lot of that sounds like quote mining.

 

The comment Truman made is clearly aspirational rather than some kind of confirmation that he knew what Japan would or would not do.

 

Short of direct contact with Japanese leadership how the hell would Truman truly know what would force the Japanese to surrender?

[CastlevaniaNut18]

53 minutes ago, TUFKAK said:

I, and many others, were openly weeping there so yeah, be prepared. 

I’m really not a crier, but I’m sure I’ll be feeling some heaviness in my chest that day. 

[Ghost_MH]

2 hours ago, mclumber1 said:

In an alternate reality where the bombs were not used on Japan to end WWII, but both the Americans and Soviets developed the capacity to build and deploy these weapons, I have a hard time believing there wouldn't have been a nuclear exchange between the two countries over the course of the next 5 decades. 

 

Let's be real here. That's probably true, but probably not in a Soviet or American city. Better to test those on "non-people", ie anyone that doesn't counts as white at the time.

[thewhyteboar]

1 hour ago, TUFKAK said:

Let’s not forget the amount of lives saved in China and Korea by forcing the surrender. 
 

it’s curious how that’s always glossed over.

Imperial Japan’s victims were primarily Asian, and I think due to that the West has glossed over a lot of Japan’s atrocities. Post-war Japan has gotten away with a ton of shit that the West simply wouldn’t countenance from Germany. Can you even imagine Angela Merkel posing with SS regalia and visiting Joachim Peiper’s grave? It would never happen, but Japanese prime ministers do the equivalent and the West shrugs. 
 

It’s not so cut and dry, as the above article suggests. The Japanese army attempted a coup after both bombs because they didn’t want to give up. Imagine a surrender before the bombs; I doubt the army would have allowed it. Also imagine if we had the bomb in 1942 and bombed 2 German cities. Think of the lives saved, not just of soldiers but of victims of the camps. If the bombs aren’t dropped on Japan, the war most likely drags on for awhile. I do believe that the bombs saved lives, and I don’t just mean American lives, I mean Chinese, Korean, and Filipino lives. After Oppenheimer, there’s been a lot of talk about looking for a Japanese point of view, but to be honest, I’d rather hear from their victims. I doubt you find a single Chinese, Filipino, Korean, or people from a bunch of other Asian countries, who think the bombs weren’t necessary. Again, just from simple math, the bombs most likely saved lives. 

[TUFKAK]

4 minutes ago, thewhyteboar said:

Imperial Japan’s victims were primarily Asian, and I think due to that the West has glossed over a lot of Japan’s atrocities. Post-war Japan has gotten away with a ton of shit that the West simply wouldn’t countenance from Germany. Can you even imagine Angela Merkel posing with SS regalia and visiting Joachim Peiper’s grave? It would never happen, but Japanese prime ministers do the equivalent and the West shrugs. 
 

It’s not so cut and dry, as the above article suggests. The Japanese army attempted a coup after both bombs because they didn’t want to give up. Imagine a surrender before the bombs; I doubt the army would have allowed it. Also imagine if we had the bomb in 1942 and bombed 2 German cities. Think of the lives saved, not just of soldiers but of victims of the camps. If the bombs aren’t dropped on Japan, the war most likely drags on for awhile. I do believe that the bombs saved lives, and I don’t just mean American lives, I mean Chinese, Korean, and Filipino lives. After Oppenheimer, there’s been a lot of talk about looking for a Japanese point of view, but to be honest, I’d rather hear from their victims. I doubt you find a single Chinese, Filipino, Korean, or people from a bunch of other Asian countries, who think the bombs weren’t necessary. Again, just from simple math, the bombs most likely saved lives. 

Very much this, it’s western centric to overlook the atrocities in China but condemn the US for application of weapons that ended the war, the emperor said that was the reason he surrendered. Are we to ignore his words as well?

 

When you do the math, on average, over 200k Chinese were dying every month during the war. That’s just one nation.

[CayceG]

The bomb didn't save any lives. It took lives. Ending the war saved lives, and that was a decision the Japanese made. 

 

Why they made it is not so clear cut. 

[thewhyteboar]

1 minute ago, CayceG said:

The bomb didn't save any lives. It took lives. Ending the war saved lives, and that was a decision the Japanese made. 

 

Why they made it is not so clear cut. 

That’s a fair way to put it. 

[TUFKAK]

1 minute ago, CayceG said:

The bomb didn't save any lives. It took lives. Ending the war saved lives, and that was a decision the Japanese made. 

 

Why they made it is not so clear cut. 

The Jewel Voice Broadcast - Nuclear Museum

AHF.NUCLEARMUSEUM.ORG

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To our good and loyal subjects:After pondering deeply the general trends of the world and the actual conditions obtaining to our empire today, we have decided to effect a settlement...

Saying the reason they surrendered isn’t what saved lives but the surrender itself is a distinction without a difference my friend.

[CastlevaniaNut18]

I also read The Rape of Nanking years back and that’s one that will stay with me. Japanese atrocities during the War get glossed over so frequently while the West focuses on Germany and the Holocaust. 
 

Not to say I don’t have empathy for the victims of the atomic bombs. This book has been one the heaviest reads I’ve ever undertaken. 

[TUFKAK]

With that said I still do have sympathy, but I have more for the victims of imperial Japan despite stories like below gutting me.

 

 

[Ghost_MH]

1 hour ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

Japanese atrocities during the War get glossed over so frequently while the West focuses on Germany and the Holocaust. 

 

Because the West doesn't count those Asians as people. The entire reason we even still have so many Nazis and Holocaust deniers today is because there's a not insignificant number of people in the West that don't view the those killed during the Holocaust as people. There is a sizable chunk of this country that believes those deaths should be as glossed over as all those Japanese atrocities.

[Brick]

I've heard before that Japan was ready to surrender, but they sent a message to US leaders saying as much, but it was mistranslated as basically "bring it on" because the words in Japan are very similar. 

[Jwheel86]

Would Hirohito have survived a coup without the nukes and would a military junta have been capable of surrender without Hirohito? We have no idea.

 

2 hours ago, thewhyteboar said:

Imperial Japan’s victims were primarily Asian, and I think due to that the West has glossed over a lot of Japan’s atrocities. Post-war Japan has gotten away with a ton of shit that the West simply wouldn’t countenance from Germany. Can you even imagine Angela Merkel posing with SS regalia and visiting Joachim Peiper’s grave? It would never happen, but Japanese prime ministers do the equivalent and the West shrugs. 
 

It’s not so cut and dry, as the above article suggests. The Japanese army attempted a coup after both bombs because they didn’t want to give up. Imagine a surrender before the bombs; I doubt the army would have allowed it. Also imagine if we had the bomb in 1942 and bombed 2 German cities. Think of the lives saved, not just of soldiers but of victims of the camps. If the bombs aren’t dropped on Japan, the war most likely drags on for awhile. I do believe that the bombs saved lives, and I don’t just mean American lives, I mean Chinese, Korean, and Filipino lives. After Oppenheimer, there’s been a lot of talk about looking for a Japanese point of view, but to be honest, I’d rather hear from their victims. I doubt you find a single Chinese, Filipino, Korean, or people from a bunch of other Asian countries, who think the bombs weren’t necessary. Again, just from simple math, the bombs most likely saved lives. 

 

My guess is Japan got a pass because they surrendered without an invasion being needed and the immediate Cold War politics. Like you said it is likely we would have used them in Europe if available. In that scenario it is entirely possible some elements of the Nazi Government (maybe Hitler himself) would have been left in place to keep German society from collapsing and the Soviets out (Himmler tried to make that deal with the Allies as Berlin fell). That's why Hirohito and the Japanese monarchy was left in place. If the US had to invade and estimates were accurate, Japanese society and culture probably would have been given the same post war condemnation as Germany. They definitely would have if China was the occupying power. Germany required the Allies and Red Army to push across all of Europe up to Hitler's bunker which for the Red Army involved millions dead. Germany's defeat was deeply personal to 3 of the 4 powers occupying Germany, the occupation of Japan wasn't personal to US except for individual soldiers (my grandpa who was the Flying Tigers hated Japanese people til the day he died). 

[Jwheel86]

Also, good movie on immediate post war Japan. I think it is on Paramount Plus currently. 

 

 

[unogueen]

War is fucking messy. Don't be stupid. please. You just left Afghanistan.

[Captain Pickle]

On 8/8/2023 at 12:45 AM, unogueen said:

War is fucking messy. Don't be stupid. please. You just left Afghanistan.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

On 8/7/2023 at 10:46 PM, Brick said:

I've heard before that Japan was ready to surrender, but they sent a message to US leaders saying as much, but it was mistranslated as basically "bring it on" because the words in Japan are very similar. 

 

I can unequivocally assure you that there's no truth to that whatsoever

[Ominous]

On 8/7/2023 at 5:12 PM, DarkStar189 said:

I remember all the times looking at the food pyramid and seeing all of those wonderful servings of carbs I should eat. Feels strange.

Carbs are delicious and fuck cutting them... Unless it's a French bread that needs to be cut open so you can stuff some meat into it. 

[unogueen]

Carbs aren't the problem. It's the industrialized nature of food commodity that's the problem. Want some ham and cheese on rye for breakfast, perfectly fine. PB and Jelly on wonder bread, that's all refined sugars that hit the dopamine and do shit for satiety. Same with all these potato/corn chips. Cheap crops for easy commerce. Rather than a discussion on nutrition in a vacuum, there should be contextualization how the markets intervene in our food supply. Particularly when economic struggles force people to live off highly subsidized industrial pablum.

[Brick]

5 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

I can unequivocally assure you that there's no truth to that whatsoever

 

You made me curious if I was misremembering, so I found the article I read that in. Number 3. Not a direct message to the US but yeah a mistranslated word with two meanings. 

 

6 Mistranslations That Changed The World

WWW.CRACKED.COM

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In a rapidly shrinking world, it's becoming more and more important to have translations that are both lightning-fast and actually understandable. Of course, nobody...

 

[Signifyin(g)Monkey]

On 8/7/2023 at 5:56 PM, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

Finishing up To Hell and Back: The Last Train from Hiroshima and it talks about how several Japanese military leaders didn't want to surrender even after the bombs. They thought Japan could hold out and the US didn't have another ready to go yet.

 

I've never taken a firm stance on whether the bombings were the correct thing to do, but I'll read the article later. The effects were horrendous and I hope it never happens again. Will be visiting Hiroshima in a couple months and I'm sure that'll be a really somber day during an otherwise fun-filled 3 weeks.

 

As for the fire bombing of Tokyo, I recommend reading Black Snow by James Scott.

You really couldn’t blame the Japanese for thinking they could hold out and win the day.  At that point they hadn’t lost a war for literally two millennia.

 

I’m open to the idea that the only way you convince an opponent who hasn’t been defeated in 2000 years that they ought to surrender to you is to show them you literally have the power to cause Armageddon.

 

But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t also a power trip for many of the military leaders involved, with a little racial fear of the ‘Yellow Menace’ at work, too.

[Guest]

I recently watched “The Day After Trinity” followed by “Children of Nagasaki” and…I just don’t care for the takes that it may have stopped more bloodshed overall. What a shameful mark on the US that we used such an awful weapon on civilians.

 

Both are excellent and currently streaming on Criterion. Day After Trinity is a documentary primarily focused on the scientists at Los Alamos, lots of interviews with the people who were there. Children of Nagasaki is a drama dealing with the moments leads up to the bombing and the aftermath.