"Most people living in the United States today—certainly more than half—are not Americans in any meaningful sense of the term."

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Joe said:

It certainly does rely on it to some extent, but Western culture does not depend on the US to exist.

Certainly. There are many areas of western culture where the US follows the lead already. And as I mentioned already, the Christian influence on western culture even in the US continues to wane. It’s simply not a threat to western culture, but people don’t seem to want to engage with that point and instead pivot to pointing out bad acts that threaten individuals.

 

Well, of course there are individuals harmed by all manner of ideologies. That doesn’t make those ideologies an existential threat to western culture!

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

Living in a country with a strong safety net is so stress-free, it's hard to describe. I can't imagine what is like in Sweden.

I’d be much more stressed by the overbearing state, personally. But I understand the appeal.

[Jason]

3 hours ago, Jason said:

 

By the End of Summer, Arkansas Doctors Can Refuse to Treat LGBTQ Patients

WWW.ROLLINGSTONE.COM

---

Republican Governor Asa Hutchinson signed into law a bill giving medical providers discretion to refuse treatment to LGBTQ patients.

 

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Quick define western culture

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Quick define western culture

[Anathema-]

8 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Quick define western culture

 

I was gonna say. The only way to define a single culture that applies to all of Europe, Scandinavia, the British Isles, the United States, and Canada is to define it by what it isn't (which is almost always targets ripe for xenophobia and other-ing).

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

14 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Quick define western culture

 

A degenerate "culture" built upon the falsehood of the existence of the rights and sovereignty of the individual.

[Joe]

16 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Quick define western culture

People who eat bread.

[marioandsonic]

38 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Certainly. There are many areas of western culture where the US follows the lead already. And as I mentioned already, the Christian influence on western culture even in the US continues to wane. It’s simply not a threat to western culture, but people don’t seem to want to engage with that point and instead pivot to pointing out bad acts that threaten individuals.

 

Well, of course there are individuals harmed by all manner of ideologies. That doesn’t make those ideologies an existential threat to western culture!

 

In the long term, sure, we could see the Christian influence on Western culture continue to decline and possibly reach a point where it lacks any serious relevance.  But that won't happen until multiple generations from now. 

 

In the short term, not only do we have one of the two major political parties in the US who believe it is their God-given right to be in charge of everything and everyone and that scripture from the Bible should be enshrined into law, but they also believe that climate change isn't a serious issue, which means that if they have their way and climate change fucks us all over, it won't matter if Christian influence is still a factor because by then it will be too late because humanity is fucked.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

4 minutes ago, Joe said:

People who eat bread.

Beyond pork floss buns: China’s traditional breads need your attention

WWW.SBS.COM.AU

---

When I arrived in China, I wasn’t prepared for how much bread I was about to devour. I’d prepared my stomach for endless noodle bowls and towers of dumplings. But bread? How...

 

[Anathema-]

9 minutes ago, Joe said:

People who eat bread.

 

Leavened or unleavened? 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, marioandsonic said:

 

In the long term, sure, we could see the Christian influence on Western culture continue to decline and possibly reach a point where it lacks any serious relevance.  But that won't happen until multiple generations from now. 

 

In the short term, not only do we have one of the two major political parties in the US who believe it is their God-given right to be in charge of everything, but they also believe that climate change isn't a serious issue, which means that if they have their way and climate change fucks us all over, it won't matter if Christian influence is still a factor because by then it will be too late because humanity is fucked.

Nowhere in this post to you describe how Christian influence is a threat to western culture. Come on, man

[mclumber1]

11 minutes ago, Joe said:

People who eat bread.

 

To practice keto is to practice white hate!

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

So-called "Western culture" and Christianity are inextricably linked.

 

Practically all of those "Enlightenment values" that Western conservative and liberal intellectuals hold in such ludicrously high regard have their roots in Christian theological concepts.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

So-called "Western culture" and Christianity are inextricably linked.

 

Practically all of those "Enlightenment values" that Western conservative and liberal intellectuals hold in such ludicrously high regard have their roots in Christian theological concepts.

Western culture predates Christianity though. Christianity was certainly the dominant piece of western culture for most of its existence.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

13 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Western culture predates Christianity though. Christianity was certainly the dominant piece of western culture for most of its existence.

 

For our purposes, the pre-Christian "Western culture" of the Greco-Roman era is largely irrelevant.  It's a delightful curiosity to study and be aware of, but it has as much practical relevance to us now as the Mesopotamian civilizations have to the current inhabitants of Iraq.

[thewhyteboar]

2 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

For our purposes, the pre-Christian "Western culture" of the Greco-Roman era is largely irrelevant.  It's a delightful curiosity to study and be aware of, but it has as much practical relevance to us now as the Mesopotamian civilizations have to the current inhabitants of Iraq.

You can have my helots when you pry them from my cold dead hands.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

For our purposes, the pre-Christian "Western culture" of the Greco-Roman era is largely irrelevant.  It's a delightful curiosity to study and be aware of, but it has as much practical relevance to us now as the Mesopotamian civilizations have to the vurrent inhabitants of Iraq.

I think it’s actually instructive about how culture evolves!

[Jason]

2 hours ago, Joe said:

People who eat bread.

 

So you're not part of western civilization? 

[Fizzzzle]

People kid themselves when they find any sense of kinship with the past. If you met your great-great grandfather today, you'd probably find him an abhorrent piece of shit.

 

To me, the beautiful thing about western philosophy as defined by people like Locke, Hobbes, and Voltaire is that ideas about society  started to become separate from culture. To take their ideas to their logical extreme, culture doesn't matter. Society is basically a mathematical equation. There are basic rights (sorry @Commissar SFLUFAN) and a basic building block for everyone. Democratic federalism is an extension of that approach. Thinking of 'the west' or 'America' as some cultural ideal is closer to an extension of feudalism, like places and people are owned or allied to other places and people. Democratic federalism is fundamentally anarchist in that way, if you think about it. No one gets to own it.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

@Fizzzzle - everything that is regarded as a "right" is merely a "privilege" that those who have attained power have seen fit to grant.  As such, they can be snuffed out should those with that power decide to do so.  Ultimately the only thing that guarantees the continued existence of any "right"/"privilege" is the ability to preserve them through violence.

 

"Cease quoting laws to those who wield swords".

[Air_Delivery]

2 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

@Fizzzzle - everything that is regarded as a "right" is merely a "privilege" that those who have attained power have seen fit to grant.  As such, they can be snuffed out should those with that power decide to do so.  Ultimately the only thing that guarantees the continued existence of any "right"/"privilege" is the ability to preserve them through violence.

 

"Cease quoting laws to those who wield swords".

I think the concept of rights are a sort of prisoner's dilemma. What you are saying is true, there aren't any such thing as rights in the sense there is some mystical quality about them. They are just something as a society we collectively decided each individual has. It is completely a human concept. And yes it is ideally is better to be the person in power than the person who doesn't have the power. The problem with that is that very few people have the power. So in order to maximize each individuals chances of well being (including ones own) people decided on a set of rules. While the majority of people agree to these rules everything runs smoothly.

 

Its why people like Trump and psychopaths in general wreck the system. Because in order for the system to function you sometimes have to sacrifice your own well being in order to benefit others or society. This happens for most people through either through emotional control or fear of punishment. Psychopaths aren't constrained by emotions, fear or norms. They are wolves in a society of sheep. A society where everyone is a wolf would be a terrible mad max wasteland because it would be constant instability and violence. There is a reason why most people evolved to be sheep. Because cooperation maximizes the number of people's well being and the overall power of the society. However to maximize your individual well being, cheating, fucking people over or violence might be involved which while bad for society is good for the individual. This is why psychopaths are often so successful in a society of sheep playing by the rules.

This is one of the reasons why we, in my opinion, are at such a dangerous time in history. Conservative media and especially social media while maybe not making people clinical psychopaths has turned a large portion of society into having characteristics of psychopaths. The rules (rights) and norms we have collectively agreed upon are breaking down and conservatives have decided on pure power as the only way forward. Morons like Manchin still believe the current conservative party still plays by the old rules. I'm sorta hopeful overall in the sense that I think most democrats are starting to realize the old way of doing things is over. The only way to deal with this current mutant abomination of a pollical movement is to crush them through all means necessary.

This is why Democrats have you, me, Jason and a bunch of people who are not even remotely liberal backing them, at least for the time being. Because there are only two parties right now. White Christian Authoritarian Nationalistic Dumbasses who define their entire existence on a fantasy revisionist history and everyone else.

(This was a drunken rant but I think the overall point is valid)

[Signifyin(g)Monkey]

1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

@Fizzzzle - everything that is regarded as a "right" is merely a "privilege" that those who have attained power have seen fit to grant.  As such, they can be snuffed out should those with that power decide to do so.  Ultimately the only thing that guarantees the continued existence of any "right"/"privilege" is the ability to preserve them through violence.

 

"Cease quoting laws to those who wield swords".

Not necessarily violence.

 

The bourgeoisie largely secured their freedoms from the feudal lords because the latter fell into debt to the former. (much of the debt resulting from the bourg’s traders and craftsmen engineering waves of inflation, particularly in the price of soldiers/armaments)

 

Okay, theoretically I guess you could argue inflation is a sort of ‘violence’, but not of the bloody sort you mean.  There are ways of securing ‘rights’ (I.e., freedom from the predatory actions of the powerful) that don’t require guns and bullets; what they *do* require is a well-organized social group of discontents agitating for them, whether it’s unions or the bourg.

[CitizenVectron]

11 hours ago, sblfilms said:

I’d be much more stressed by the overbearing state, personally. But I understand the appeal.

 

I think only the extremely wealthy feel that way, here. It's hard to describe, but, I've never once in my life thought about healthcare, because even if I were without a job, I'd have instant access to healthcare without any deductible or fee, and I'd never have to worry about paying it off. Or about leaving my job to take another, and what that means for myself or my wife. There's so little risk to changing your location or life, even with my wife having a life-long chronic illness that requires incredibly expensive treatment. I think the US is maybe easier to live in if you're a healthy person with access to good money. But otherwise (in other words, for 80% of people), places with universal healthcare and a better safety are so much more stress-free to live in. I trust my government and know that it will be there for me if I need it.

 

There are other, big advantages to living in the US, but I don't think it could reasonably be argued that it's a lower-stress society than Canada (or Sweden, or the UK, or Germany, etc). It's just easier to live in more progressive western nations than it is in the US.

[CastlevaniaNut18]

I mean, even being financially stable and pretty healthy, I'd feel so much better knowing I didn't have to worry about paying for healthcare, having it tied to my job, dealing with shitty insurance companies, etc.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Just now, CitizenVectron said:

 

I think only the extremely wealthy feel that way, here. It's hard to describe, but, I've never once in my life thought about healthcare. Or about leaving my job to take another, and what that means for myself or my wife. There's so little risk to changing your location or life, even with my wife having a life-long chronic illness that requires incredibly expensive treatment. I think the US is maybe easier to live in if you're a healthy person with access to good money. But otherwise (in other words, for 80% of people), places with universal healthcare and a better safety are so much more stress-free to live in. I trust my government and know that it will be there for me if I need it.

Having just changed jobs I can't emphasize how stressful changing health insurance is when you have an employer who just won't get back to you.

Luckily it's just for me to get new insurance through my wife's plan (it's now better/cheaper than insurance through my new employer, this wasn't the case when I was with my old employer) so it's not risking my daughter or wife, but we also need to change the HSA contributions and set up dependent care FSA on her side as well and it's just a mega pain in the ass. Especially when we've been trying to get ahold of these people for a month and my insurance runs out in a couple days. Thank God I don't have a chronic condition or anything or otherwise need medication.

[Kal-El814]

Despite having the most best / greatest possible coverage I could get through my last job, when I broke my leg last year I had to deal with the ambulance that took me to the hospital sending me a bill for $5K+, including drugs I was offered but refused. I had to deal with the hospital sending me a bill for $6K because my provider mistakenly tagged the surgery to get a plate / screws on my bones as an elective procedure. I had to deal with the hospital sending me another bill for $4K because the medical assistant during my surgery wasn’t a participating provider, despite never having met the person or being given an option to select someone else.

 

All of this went away with some phone calls, emails, and exchanges between the hospital and my insurance company. My job is flexible enough that I could spend the time doing that stuff without being out of work. And if for whatever reason, I absolutely had to pay those bills and get reimbursed, I would have been able to do it. My father also spent his whole career in healthcare companies so I was able to ask for his advice on what to say to whom to make sure these things ended up being processed correctly. I’m lucky

 

So I can’t imagine a shift worker doing that, nor the stress it would cause someone to get fifteen fucking grand worth of bills and not know how to make them go away or if they could. Anyone who loves the American healthcare system is suffering from Stockholm syndrome, is wealthy enough to not have to sweat it, or some combination of both.

[Bloodporne]

One of the More-Than-Half. Ironically I can guarantee I've done more fucking bootstrap pulling and what they deem 'American' shit than most of their stupid-ass Conservative selves ever have to make it somewhere halfway decent in this place, much like most immigrants, legal or not, have to do in this mean-spirited country. 

 

Suck my ass

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

25 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

Despite having the most best / greatest possible coverage I could get through my last job, when I broke my leg last year I had to deal with the ambulance that took me to the hospital sending me a bill for $5K+, including drugs I was offered but refused. I had to deal with the hospital sending me a bill for $6K because my provider mistakenly tagged the surgery to get a plate / screws on my bones as an elective procedure. I had to deal with the hospital sending me another bill for $4K because the medical assistant during my surgery wasn’t a participating provider, despite never having met the person or being given an option to select someone else.

 

All of this went away with some phone calls, emails, and exchanges between the hospital and my insurance company. My job is flexible enough that I could spend the time doing that stuff without being out of work. And if for whatever reason, I absolutely had to pay those bills and get reimbursed, I would have been able to do it. My father also spent his whole career in healthcare companies so I was able to ask for his advice on what to say to whom to make sure these things ended up being processed correctly. I’m lucky

 

So I can’t imagine a shift worker doing that, nor the stress it would cause someone to get fifteen fucking grand worth of bills and not know how to make them go away or if they could. Anyone who loves the American healthcare system is suffering from Stockholm syndrome, is wealthy enough to not have to sweat it, or some combination of both.

The hospital billed my insurance for nearly $44k for an appendix removal. 44-fucking-thousand dollars! I only got charged for about $1400 but that's not including anesthesia and those related costs. It's fucking insane! I can't imagine getting a bill for that much money and not having insurance! 

[Guest]

Even when I didn’t have health insurance, healthcare has never been a stress point for me. I am far more stressed by being told what to do. Even when I was little. I notice my daughter is the same way. She really is a little girl version of me in most personality traits.

 

I’m probably going to live out my days on some remote ranch in West Texas where people will just leave me be  

[Jason]

33 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

Despite having the most best / greatest possible coverage I could get through my last job, when I broke my leg last year I had to deal with the ambulance that took me to the hospital sending me a bill for $5K+, including drugs I was offered but refused. I had to deal with the hospital sending me a bill for $6K because my provider mistakenly tagged the surgery to get a plate / screws on my bones as an elective procedure. I had to deal with the hospital sending me another bill for $4K because the medical assistant during my surgery wasn’t a participating provider, despite never having met the person or being given an option to select someone else.

 

All of this went away with some phone calls, emails, and exchanges between the hospital and my insurance company. My job is flexible enough that I could spend the time doing that stuff without being out of work. And if for whatever reason, I absolutely had to pay those bills and get reimbursed, I would have been able to do it. My father also spent his whole career in healthcare companies so I was able to ask for his advice on what to say to whom to make sure these things ended up being processed correctly. I’m lucky

 

So I can’t imagine a shift worker doing that, nor the stress it would cause someone to get fifteen fucking grand worth of bills and not know how to make them go away or if they could. Anyone who loves the American healthcare system is suffering from Stockholm syndrome, is wealthy enough to not have to sweat it, or some combination of both.

 

One time a hospital fucked up billing my insurance (or maybe just never billed them in first place, it's been ten years at this point). I know for a fact they had my insurance information because there was another bill or something where it was indicated that my insurance had been billed, or a piece of paperwork showing my insurance info, or something like that. Eventually the account was unpaid for long enough that they sold the account to a debt collector, ignoring the part where they only reason the account was unpaid was because they never billed it to my insurance. I had never received any of the letters they had supposedly sent me trying to get me to settle the account (if I had the insurance billing issue could have been figured out before the account got sold) and found out about all this when I got a call from a debt collector at work, they called the front desk and asked for me. 

 

The hospital was in NY and my dad is a lawyer in NY so he got that dealt with. Then the hospital fucking sold the account to another debt collector. I forget if that was the last time or if there was a third time they sold it but it only stopped when my dad sent the hospital a letter on his law firm letterhead that basically said the billing error was clearly on their end, they clearly had my insurance information and just never billed my insurance, and that he was going to sue the pants off the hospital if they didn't stop selling the account to debt collectors. 

 

I have no idea how you deal with that sort of situation without tearing your hair out without free legal representation. 

[Joe]

43 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

Despite having the most best / greatest possible coverage I could get through my last job, when I broke my leg last year I had to deal with the ambulance that took me to the hospital sending me a bill for $5K+, including drugs I was offered but refused. I had to deal with the hospital sending me a bill for $6K because my provider mistakenly tagged the surgery to get a plate / screws on my bones as an elective procedure. I had to deal with the hospital sending me another bill for $4K because the medical assistant during my surgery wasn’t a participating provider, despite never having met the person or being given an option to select someone else.

 

All of this went away with some phone calls, emails, and exchanges between the hospital and my insurance company. My job is flexible enough that I could spend the time doing that stuff without being out of work. And if for whatever reason, I absolutely had to pay those bills and get reimbursed, I would have been able to do it. My father also spent his whole career in healthcare companies so I was able to ask for his advice on what to say to whom to make sure these things ended up being processed correctly. I’m lucky

 

So I can’t imagine a shift worker doing that, nor the stress it would cause someone to get fifteen fucking grand worth of bills and not know how to make them go away or if they could. Anyone who loves the American healthcare system is suffering from Stockholm syndrome, is wealthy enough to not have to sweat it, or some combination of both.

Nothing we can do. This is just how Western civilization is.

[Jason]

7 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Even when I didn’t have health insurance, healthcare has never been a stress point for me. I am far more stressed by being told what to do.

 

Ah yes, easy to feel this way when you have no serious health issues.

[Guest]

Just now, Jason said:

 

Ah yes, easy to feel this way when you have no serious health issues.

 

I’ve been diabetic since childhood...

[Jason]

5 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

 

I’ve been diabetic since childhood...

 

Then it's even weirder that you feel this way, because I don't see how the government paying your healthcare registers as being told what to do, if anything our current setup is where you're getting told what to do since so many people don't switch jobs for fear of the health insurance upheaval that comes with switching jobs.