"Most people living in the United States today—certainly more than half—are not Americans in any meaningful sense of the term."

[Guest]

Just now, Jason said:

 

Then it's even weirder that you feel this way, because I don't see how the government paying your healthcare registers as being told what to do, if anything our current setup is where you're getting told what to do since so many people don't switch jobs for fear of the health insurance upheaval that comes with switching jobs.

 

I didn’t say the Government paying for healthcare is being told what to do. You linked those notions on your own.

[Jason]

25 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Even when I didn’t have health insurance, healthcare has never been a stress point for me. I am far more stressed by being told what to do.

 

Can't possibly imagine why I linked the two.

[Chris-]

I’m sure the women who have to jump through hoops to get an abortion would have a thing or two to say about the government ‘telling them what to do’. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

 

Can't possibly imagine why I linked the two.

Feel free to read those posts again because in context it makes no sense that you would. CV is saying that lack of guaranteed healthcare would be a stress for him, and I’m saying such a thing isn’t a stress for me while something entirely different is a stress for me.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Chris- said:

I’m sure the women who have to jump through hoops to get an abortion would have a thing or two to say about the government ‘telling them what to do’. 

 

For non-sequitur  

[Chris-]

6 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

 

For non-sequitur  

 

How is it a non-sequitur? You juxtaposed types of duress due to state action (or lack there of); all I did was point out that for a sizable group of people, what you cited is an ever-present reality. If you are an American and you don’t already feel ‘told what to do’, that’s a pretty privileged position to be in!

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

On 3/28/2021 at 12:57 PM, Jason said:

 

I actually read that whole article the quote is from wanting to see what they think a real American citizen is. Other than not a Biden voter, but being a “Claremont Conservative” there’s nothing explicitly detailed. Nor was there even the slightest idea of what they think needs to be done, other than undo a bunch of changes made over the decades. 
 

they also have a very rose-tinted view of American history. Where all humans had their rights recognized, and all were allowed or encouraged to participate in American politics. That we had a democracy without a hint of aristocracy. Except that most blacks couldn’t vote, most women couldn’t vote, and in many states only land owners could could vote (making it a privilege of the wealthier men). But also forgetting that it’s always been a Republic. A select few actually cast their vote. And representatives on behalf of others, but not necessarily based on their will. 
 

These “conservatives” have such a romantic view of America in the 18th century, but it is heavily detached from reality. As if all 13 colonies in America were in complete agreement to separate/revolt from Great Britain. They really need to take some social studies and US history classes. 

[Guest]

Just now, Chris- said:

 

How is it a non-sequitur? You juxtaposed types of duress due to state action (or lack there of); all I did was point out was that for a sizable group of people, what you cited is an ever-present reality. If you are an American and you don’t feel ‘told what to do’, that’s a pretty privileged position to be in!

I didn't say I don't feel told what to do, I said that being told what to do is what stresses me out. So any place that does so to a lesser degree is less stressful for me, while places that do it to a greater degree are more stressful. This even includes where I live within the particular region that I live. I intentionally live outside of the city limits to have less authorities telling me what I can and can't do with my home. And to be clear, this isn't a virtue, it is simply a statement of my own feelings. Hence why I mentioned to CV that I get the appeal of the strong social safety net for others.

[Guest]

Going back to the previous discussion about western culture and the threat of white Christians

 

 

Christianity in particular is rapidly losing it's grip on culture in the US, following the same path that many European nations did in the 80s/90s. This is why the the religious right needs things that allow for minority rule to stretch out their waning influence in public life.

[Chris-]

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

I didn't say I don't feel told what to do, I said that being told what to do is what stresses me out. So any place that does so to a lesser degree is less stressful for me, while places that do it to a greater degree are more stressful. This even includes where I live within the particular region that I live. I intentionally live outside of the city limits to have less authorities telling me what I can and can't do with my home. And to be clear, this isn't a virtue, it is simply a statement of my own feelings. Hence why I mentioned to CV that I get the appeal of the strong social safety net for others.

But in the context of the discussion that’s kind of a distinction without a difference. Maybe you don’t need as many permits in America as you do in Sweden to add an addition to your house (note: I have no idea if that’s true, just saying it for the sake of the argument), but when you are forced to engage in a healthcare system that brutally dictates who you can see or what is covered, is there really a difference? I don’t think the trade off you are alluding to really exists. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Chris- said:

But in the context of the discussion that’s kind of a distinction without a difference. Maybe you don’t need as many permits in America as you do in Sweden to add an addition to your house (note: I have no idea if that’s true, just saying it for the sake of the argument), but when you are forced to engage in a healthcare system that brutally dictates who you can see or what is covered, is there really a difference? I don’t think the trade off you are alluding to really exists. 

 

I'm not forced to engage with the healthcare system in the first place.

[ThreePi]

2 hours ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

I actually read that whole article the quote is from wanting to see what they think a real American citizen is. Other than not a Biden voter, but being a “Claremont Conservative” there’s nothing explicitly detailed. Nor was there even the slightest idea of what they think needs to be done, other than undo a bunch of changes made over the decades. 

 

There was this paragraph, but it does nothing to explain how that is allegedly a conservative viewpoint and not liberal one as well. Not to mention the GOP's voter suppression drive is absolutely at odds with his statement.

 

"Authentic Americans still want to have decent lives. They want to work, worship, raise a family, and participate in public affairs without being treated as insolent upstarts in their own country. Therefore, we need a conception of a stable political regime that allows for the good life."

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

9 minutes ago, ThreePi said:

 

There was this paragraph, but it does nothing to explain how that is allegedly a conservative viewpoint and not liberal one as well. Not to mention the GOP's voter suppression drive is absolutely at odds with his statement.

 

"Authentic Americans still want to have decent lives. They want to work, worship, raise a family, and participate in public affairs without being treated as insolent upstarts in their own country. Therefore, we need a conception of a stable political regime that allows for the good life."

yeah, I saw that, but it doesn’t say that these things are uniquely for “Authentic Americans”. So it still doesn’t answer the question of what specifically is American and what isn’t, or what (broadly) needs to happen to get there. What needs to change? What has been taken from them? They kept referencing “Claremont Conservatives”, but didn’t even go into details about what they specifically believe in. 
 

They could have summarized the entire thing saying “Claremont conservatives are the only real Americans and real conservatives. Liberals are bad. We should do something. “ and you wouldn’t lose any points of detail on why or how from the original article. 

[CitizenVectron]

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

 

I'm not forced to engage with the healthcare system in the first place.

 

Everyone is forced to engage with the healthcare system at some point in their life.

[Chris-]

59 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

 

I'm not forced to engage with the healthcare system in the first place.

Ok? The same could be said about most instances in which the state tells someone what to do. You’re not forced to build an addition to your house or open a new a drive-in, but you choose to do those things. 

[Jason]

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

I'm not forced to engage with the healthcare system in the first place.

 

So all your kids were home births with no medical professionals on hand?

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

Everyone is forced to engage with the healthcare system at some point in their life.

This is only true with a pointlessly broad definition of the healthcare system.

 

13 minutes ago, Chris- said:

Ok? The same could be said about most instances in which the state tells someone what to do. You’re not forced to build an addition to your house or open a new a drive-in, but you choose to do those things. 

You are correct that I’m not forced to do those things, but were I to choose to do those things different jurisdictions have different requirements. Choosing one with less onerous restrictions is important to me.
 

For example, I live in a county that does not require building permits expressly for the purpose of being able to do whatever I want on my property. You’re arguing as though the issue is forced vs. not forced, when the issue is actually how much force. There will always be some, I just personally value having the least amount of force applied. 
 

9 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

So all your kids were home births with no medical professionals on hand?

No, but we were willing participants in all such activities. Side note: both my wife and I were born at home. I think my wife would opt for home births if she had the chance to do it over again.

[Signifyin(g)Monkey]

9 hours ago, sblfilms said:

 

I didn’t say the Government paying for healthcare is being told what to do. You linked those notions on your own.

As an employer, government paying for healthcare should mean the opposite to you.  It means society—and the state—would no longer function under the assumption that it’s your responsibility to provide the citizenry with the means to healthcare, and as a consequence would no longer saddle you with the responsibility and burden of bearing the dead weight of the insurance industry and big pharma by absorbing their monopoly rents into your wage rates, as you (and anyone else competing for labor) are basically forced to do now.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

As an employer, government paying for healthcare should mean the opposite to you.  It means society—and the state—would no longer function under the assumption that it’s your responsibility to provide the citizenry with the means to healthcare, and as a consequence would no longer saddle you with the responsibility of bearing the dead weight of the insurance industry and big pharma by building their monopoly rents into your wage rates, as you (and anyone else competing for labor) are basically forced to do now.

This is all fine and good and still has literally nothing to do with what I was talking about

 

CV was talking about how he would feel stress without the social safety net that Canada affords him. I was saying, maybe clumsily so, that a lack of social safety net isn’t the thing that drives stress for ME, it is Governments that are overbearing (in my opinion, of course) with regards to what I can and can’t do.

 

It’s not an either this or that, I don’t believe. Less regulation of my life and work simply has much more regular affects on me than who pays for my or my staff’s healthcare.

 

 

[CitizenVectron]

Also, generally speaking, there are almost no differences in government regulations or intrusions into the lives of Canadians compared to Americans. If anything, our system actually makes it easier to take risks like starting or expanding a business. The data shows this, with income/class mobility in Canada being higher than the US. Both countries have intrusions that the other lacks. In Canada a large number of those involve how employers can treat employees (on the side of the employee). In the US, a large number of those involve how a woman can or can't control her body. Personally, if choosing which produces less stress, I'd choose Canada.

 

I get the point sbl is making, but I think reality actually supports that the US has a lot of laws and rules that result in more government control than in Canada. Heck, just look at drug laws. There are going to be situations where one or the other is better, but both are pretty similar. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

Also, generally speaking, there are almost no differences in government regulations or intrusions into the lives of Canadians compared to Americans. If anything, our system actually makes it easier to take risks like starting or expanding a business. The data shows this, with income/class mobility in Canada being higher than the US. Both countries have intrusions that the other lacks. In Canada a large number of those involve how employers can treat employees (on the side of the employee). In the US, a large number of those involve how a woman can or can't control her body. Personally, if choosing which produces less stress, I'd choose Canada.

 

I get the point sbl is making, but I think reality actually supports that the US has a lot of laws and rules that result in more government control than in Canada. Heck, just look at drug laws. There are going to be situations where one or the other is better, but both are pretty similar. 

 

You're comparing Canada as a whole to the US as a whole, but the majority of restrictions on businesses are at the state and local level here while Canada has much stronger regulations at the federal level (though obviously still differences at the provincial and city levels). There are substantive differences between neighboring counties even just here in the Houston region. Like, I simply would never open another business in Harris county and am actually looking to move one out of there, while I would gladly open more businesses in Brazoria county. Same for where I live. I think I mentioned it before but Brazoria county has no building permits or inspections for residential construction, so you can literally do whatever you want.

 

But your last line is exactly my point, everybody has different stress points and I totally get the desire for stronger social programs to alleviate a particular stress point some folks have. I honestly don't know why it seems to bother certain people that I don't personally view those things as stressful, but view other things as stressful. Weird!

[Jason]

6 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I think I mentioned it before but Brazoria county has no building permits or inspections for residential construction, so you can literally do whatever you want.

 

Cool, I've always dreamed of living in a fire deathtrap.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

Cool, I've always dreamed of living in a fire deathtrap.

 

Building codes aren't the only thing that permitting affects, and one can still build to standard codes without getting local approvals.

[Ghost_MH]

2 hours ago, sblfilms said:

This is all fine and good and still has literally nothing to do with what I was talking about

 

CV was talking about how he would feel stress without the social safety net that Canada affords him. I was saying, maybe clumsily so, that a lack of social safety net isn’t the thing that drives stress for ME, it is Governments that are overbearing (in my opinion, of course) with regards to what I can and can’t do.

 

It’s not an either this or that, I don’t believe. Less regulation of my life and work simply has much more regular affects on me than who pays for my or my staff’s healthcare.

 

Medical debt is one of the biggest stressors in this country. Even with insurance, people can very easily be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars they have no way of paying. Debt that limits what jobs they can get and where they can even live.

[Iculus]

My last boss spent $9k for the birth of his son. He delivered him at his apartment after watching YouTube videos. They took an ambulance to the hospital, received zero care on the way, and were home 5 hours later.

[Ghost_MH]

10 minutes ago, Iculus said:

My last boss spent $9k for the birth of his son. He delivered him at his apartment after watching YouTube videos. They took an ambulance to the hospital, received zero care on the way, and were home 5 hours later.

 

With our third kid, we got hit with more than  that with an in hospital natural delivery with the best and most complete insurance package my company has to offer in a state with great healthcare all because my wife had the audacity to almost die shortly after child birth.

 

I should also note that ambulance rides in this country are hilariously overpriced. I've mentioned it before, but my son needed surgery at 1 month old. Our local hospital couldn't perform surgery on someone that young so we had to move him to another hospital. We tried to not do that in an ambulance, but we were required to. It was an hour long drive and we were charged thousands. He was strapped into his car seat the entire way with my wife riding along next to him. The ambulance was literally just a taxi from one hospital to another.

[Jason]

2 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

With our third kid, we got hit with more than  that with an in hospital natural delivery with the best and most complete insurance package my company has to offer in a state with great healthcare all because my wife had the audacity to almost die shortly after child birth.

 

And the hospital made the decision on whether to live or die for your wife?

[Ghost_MH]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

And the hospital made the decision on whether to live or die for your wife?

 

She was bed ridden for like a week before they figured out what want wrong. Turns out she needed a blood transfusion. A week in the ICU is really expensive, though. We still haven't paid that bill.

 

The best part about all this is that I do believe we'll eventually get universal healthcare in this country. That said, there's no way past medical debts will ever be forgiven for folks. If they were, some dipshit in Congress will demand that count as income, because we suck.

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Medical debt is one of the biggest stressors in this country. Even with insurance, people can very easily be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars they have no way of paying. Debt that limits what jobs they can get and where they can even live.

I’ve got many millions of dollars in debt. Debt doesn’t stress me. I’m not sure why you guys keep trying to tell me what I should care about.

[Jason]

1 minute ago, sblfilms said:

I’ve got many millions of dollars in debt. Debt doesn’t stress me. I’m not sure why you guys keep trying to tell me what I should care about.

 

Business loans you have a clear path to repaying is obviously the same thing as crippling medical debt.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

 

Business loans you have a clear path to repaying is obviously the same thing as crippling medical debt.

Yeah, had real clear path on repaying them before the industry in which I make money to pay those loans collapsed. Good points, well thought out argument.

 

You really don’t think these snipes through more than 5 seconds  

[Jason]

Just now, sblfilms said:

Yeah, had real clear path on repaying them before the industry in which I make money to pay those loans collapsed. Good points, well thought out argument.

 

You really don’t think these snipes through more than 5 seconds  

  

23 hours ago, sblfilms said:

I’ve been in the movie theater business for the last 8 years, it’s always been pretty solid, the Covid hit and our drive in theater business went nuts which more than made up for our losses on our indoor. We’ve added three more locations since September 2020, the most recent of which actually happened this past week.

 

[Guest]

Just now, Jason said:

  

 

Yes? We had to retool our business strategy precisely because the notes are due no matter what. 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

You're such a far outlier on this it isn't worth engaging 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

You're such a far outlier on this it isn't worth engaging 

Its not worth engaging *my own personal feelings* as though they are up for debate!