Genocide Israel be genociding thread

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

 

Many Black people think they are being exterminated by police shooting them, sincerely believe it to their core. And yet there is simply no rational standard by which that could be considered true. That doesn't mean the treatment of Black people by police is right, or that Black people get fair treatment in our criminal justice system in general. So the stories of individuals within a racial/ethnic group are meaningful and powerful, it doesn't mean their conclusions are correct.

 

The plight of the Palestinians is partly the responsibility of the Israeli government, yes. But that doesn't mean that we should support the bombing of random Jews on buses like a certain user said, or that we should advocate for the end of the Jewish state as @b_m_b_m_b_mhas because both of those things are rooted in anti-Semitism.

 

Well, I can't speak for others, but I think we can disagree with Israel, fight for Palestinian equality and rights, and not hurt Jews all at the same time. 

[Uaarkson]

5 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Well, I can't speak for others, but I think we can disagree with Israel, fight for Palestinian equality and rights, and not hurt Jews all at the same time. 

bingo, this really isn’t hard to grasp

[AbsolutSurgen]

26 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Well, I can't speak for others, but I think we can disagree with Israel, fight for Palestinian equality and rights, and not hurt Jews all at the same time. 

I think everyone can disagree with many of Israel’s policies, agree fundamentally that everyone has the right to equality, and agree that hurting Jews is bad. 
 

What that means in the real world is more complicated. 

[CitizenVectron]

1 minute ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

I think everyone can disagree with many of Israel’s policies, agree fundamentally that everyone has the right to equality, and agree that hurting Jews is bad. 
 

What that means in the real world is more complicated. 

 

Like you say, in the real world it gets complicated because the thing is thrown into black and white for PR purposes. If you denounce Israel, then maybe you hate Jewish people. The same was true in the years following 9/11—if you spoke out against security theatre, then maybe you hated America, and freedom. On issues where there is a huge incentive (whether financial, power-based, or territorial), you will have people in elite positions creating this false equivalency of opposition with aggression.

[AbsolutSurgen]

Just now, CitizenVectron said:

 

Like you say, in the real world it gets complicated because the thing is thrown into black and white for PR purposes. If you denounce Israel, then maybe you hate Jewish people. The same was true in the years following 9/11—if you spoke out against security theatre, then maybe you hated America, and freedom. On issues where there is a huge incentive (whether financial, power-based, or territorial), you will have people in elite positions creating this false equivalency of opposition with aggression.

You’re right. People like to frame things as black and white, and pick “good guys” and “bad guys”. The world is rarely that simple. 
 

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Wonderful job conflating anti Zionism (culminating in the current Apartheid Israeli state) and anti semitism you're doing a great job. I'm done here.

[Guest]

Never mind @b_m_b_m_b_m

[Air_Delivery]

6 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

The quite clear implication of your views is that a Jewish state can’t exist if peace is to exist, whether you mean that in an anti-Semitic way or not is irrelevant to whether that notion is rooted in anti-Semitism. I actually assume you don’t! But that is exactly what the anti-Semites have spent the last 70 years doing, obfuscating their views to make them palatable to a broader set of people. 

You might have a point if Israel didn't keep building settlements.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

15 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

The quite clear implication of your views is that a Jewish state can’t exist if peace is to exist, whether you mean that in an anti-Semitic way or not is irrelevant to whether that notion is rooted in anti-Semitism. I actually assume you don’t! But that is exactly what the anti-Semites have spent the last 70 years doing, obfuscating their views to make them palatable to a broader set of people. 

It can't exist with peace because the settler colonial nature of it requires displacing, and has displaced, the native population at the barrel of a gun. I've stated this before and won't go over it again.

[Greatoneshere]

5 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

I think everyone can disagree with many of Israel’s policies, agree fundamentally that everyone has the right to equality, and agree that hurting Jews is bad. 
 

What that means in the real world is more complicated. 

 

It's not actually that complicated. It's just the reality is Israel is here to stay and that probably won't stop and Israel will probably never be for either a one-state or two-state solution regardless of Hamas/PLA/insert whatever here so this is it.

[Remarkableriots]

Mark Ruffalo's surprising apology (opinion) - CNN

AMP.CNN.COM

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In an era where every word and action is under the microscope it's important when a major celebrity express a sincere apology, writes Peter Fox. Ruffalo's statement chose to stand up for the dignity of Jews, who...

 

[Air_Delivery]

16 minutes ago, Remarkableriots said:

Mark Ruffalo's surprising apology (opinion) - CNN

AMP.CNN.COM

---

In an era where every word and action is under the microscope it's important when a major celebrity express a sincere apology, writes Peter Fox. Ruffalo's statement chose to stand up for the dignity of Jews, who...

 

Who gives a shit what Mark Ruffalo has to say

[AbsolutSurgen]

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Shut the fuck up

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

That's all you get for the implication that criticism of the Apartheid state is because of anti semitism. Just shut the fuck up.

[Joe]

heyyoumic

[Fizzzzle]

4 hours ago, Remarkableriots said:

Mark Ruffalo's surprising apology (opinion) - CNN

AMP.CNN.COM

---

In an era where every word and action is under the microscope it's important when a major celebrity express a sincere apology, writes Peter Fox. Ruffalo's statement chose to stand up for the dignity of Jews, who...

 

I accept Mark Ruffalo's apology. I'm glad he cleared things up, I was beginning to worry.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

 

Every time I see the "Anti-Israel isn't Anti-Semite" I think about this research

 

ERIC - EJ809562 - Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Anti-Semitism in Europe, Journal of Conflict Resolution, 2006

ERIC.ED.GOV

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In the discourse surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, extreme criticisms of Israel (e.g., Israel is an apartheid state, the Israel Defense Forces deliberately target Palestinian civilians), coupled with extreme policy proposals (e.g., boycott of Israeli academics and institutions, divest from companies doing business with Israel), have sparked counterclaims that such criticisms are anti-Semitic (for only Israel is singled...

 

Quote

We began this article by noting that extreme anti-Israel sentiment has been interpreted by some as anti-Semitic in effect if not intent. It is therefore important to consider the competing motivations behind such sentiment. There are certainly critics of Israel on specific policy grounds, but there are also anti-Semitic individuals for whom attacks on Israel are manifestations of prejudice. Given this mix, what is one to think when presented with accusations such as “Israel is just like apartheid South Africa,” “Israel is responsible for the violence in the Middle East,” or “Israel deliberately targets Palestinian civilians”? Our research directly addresses this issue. From a large survey of 5,000 citizens of ten European countries, we showed that the prevalence of those harboring (selfreported) anti-Semitic views consistently increases with respondents’ degree of anti-Israel sentiment (see Figures 2 and 3 and Table 3), even after controlling for other factors.

 

It is noteworthy that fewer than one-quarter of those with anti-Israel index scores of only 1 or 2 harbor anti-Semitic views (as defined by anti-Semitic index scores exceeding 5), which supports the contention that one certainly can be critical of Israeli policies without being anti-Semitic. However, among those with the most extreme anti-Israel sentiments in our survey (anti-Israel index scores of 4), 56 percent report anti-Semitic leanings. Based on this analysis, when an individual’s criticism of Israel becomes sufficiently severe, it does become reasonable to ask whether such criticism is a mask for underlying anti-Semitism.

 

In this very thread we can see many anti-Zionists who hold several or all of the extreme criticisms of Israel that are strongly linked with self-reported anti-Semitic views, which almost certainly means the actual level of anti-Semitism in that group is higher than that. I think the most charitable view one can reasonably hold is that not all anti-Zionists or anti-Israel persons are anti-Semitic, but most are.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Conflating jewishness and the Zionist Israeli state doesn't help

[Air_Delivery]

20 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Every time I see the "Anti-Israel isn't Anti-Semite" I think about this research

 

ERIC - EJ809562 - Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Anti-Semitism in Europe, Journal of Conflict Resolution, 2006

ERIC.ED.GOV

---

In the discourse surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, extreme criticisms of Israel (e.g., Israel is an apartheid state, the Israel Defense Forces deliberately target Palestinian civilians), coupled with extreme policy proposals (e.g., boycott of Israeli academics and institutions, divest from companies doing business with Israel), have sparked counterclaims that such criticisms are anti-Semitic (for only Israel is singled...

 

 

In this very thread we can see many anti-Zionists who hold several or all of the extreme criticisms of Israel that are strongly linked with self-reported anti-Semitic views, which almost certainly means the actual level of anti-Semitism in that group is higher than that. I think the most charitable view one can reasonably hold is that not all anti-Zionists or anti-Israel persons are anti-Semitic, but most are.

I really don't care about any of that. Unless you can explain to me why Jewish land owned before 1948 is being given back to Jews but the land taken by Jews from Palestinians isn't subject to that same law this is all just hand waving.

It doesn't address anything Israel is doing and is nothing but a distraction. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Air_Delivery said:

I really don't care about any of that. Unless you can explain to me why Jewish land owned before 1948 is being given back to Jews but the land taken by Jews from Palestinians isn't subject to that same law this is all just hand waving.

It doesn't address anything Israel is doing and is nothing but a distraction. 

 

You support killing random Jews on buses for the sins of the Israeli government. Of course you don't care about being anti-Semitic, you proudly are!

[Jason]

[Air_Delivery]

6 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

 

You support killing random Jews on buses for the sins of the Israeli government. Of course you don't care about being anti-Semitic, you proudly are!

I have no feelings about Jews one way or another. And again even if what you are saying is an accurate characterization of my opinion you are still refusing to address this like every other handwaving load of garbage in this thread.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Air_Delivery said:

I have no feelings about Jews one way or another. And again even if what you are saying is an accurate characterization of my opinion you are still refusing to address this like every other handwaving load of garbage in this thread.

What is there to address? That there are unequal laws in regards to land claims? Yes, there are. That doesn't justify bombing random Jews on buses as you've explicitly stated it does.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

My advice to those who are accused of being anti-Semitic for their position on the State of Israel and its government is to merely shrug and quote the words of the most famous and influential Jewish man who ever lived when he was falsely accused:

 

"It is you who say that I am."

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

Every time I see the "Anti-Israel isn't Anti-Semite" I think about this research

 

ERIC - EJ809562 - Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Anti-Semitism in Europe, Journal of Conflict Resolution, 2006

ERIC.ED.GOV

---

In the discourse surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, extreme criticisms of Israel (e.g., Israel is an apartheid state, the Israel Defense Forces deliberately target Palestinian civilians), coupled with extreme policy proposals (e.g., boycott of Israeli academics...

 

 

In this very thread we can see many anti-Zionists who hold several or all of the extreme criticisms of Israel that are strongly linked with self-reported anti-Semitic views, which almost certainly means the actual level of anti-Semitism in that group is higher than that. I think the most charitable view one can reasonably hold is that not all anti-Zionists or anti-Israel persons are anti-Semitic, but most are.

well if you’re a person that hates Jews you’re also going to disagree with and levy criticism against Israel. But to disagree with and criticize Israel doesn’t mean you hate Jews. 
 

We’ve sanctioned other nations for less than what Israel gets a pass on every fucking time. 

[Ghost_MH]

3 hours ago, sblfilms said:

Every time I see the "Anti-Israel isn't Anti-Semite" I think about this research

 

ERIC - EJ809562 - Anti-Israel Sentiment Predicts Anti-Semitism in Europe, Journal of Conflict Resolution, 2006

ERIC.ED.GOV

---

In the discourse surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, extreme criticisms of Israel (e.g., Israel is an apartheid state, the Israel Defense Forces deliberately target Palestinian civilians), coupled with extreme policy proposals (e.g., boycott of Israeli academics and...

 

 

In this very thread we can see many anti-Zionists who hold several or all of the extreme criticisms of Israel that are strongly linked with self-reported anti-Semitic views, which almost certainly means the actual level of anti-Semitism in that group is higher than that. I think the most charitable view one can reasonably hold is that not all anti-Zionists or anti-Israel persons are anti-Semitic, but most are.

 

Look at it this way, do you think China's initial handling of COVID-19 is worth any criticism and even if any criticism of it so fuel Asian racism? Now that Asian racism is on the rise in the US, does that mean the CCP is now off limits? Am I not allowed to think Netanyahu would likely be in jail and that a lot of his current aggression is purely political in an attempt to remain in office after so many failed elections?

 

 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Look at it this way, do you think China's initial handling of COVID-19 is worth any criticism and even if any criticism of it so fuel Asian racism? Now that Asian racism is on the rise in the US, does that mean the CCP is now off limits? Am I not allowed to think Netanyahu would likely be in jail and that a lot of his current aggression is purely political in an attempt to remain in office after so many failed elections?

 

 

Do you think what you just said about Bibi is comparable to the bolded quotes?

 

I also think this is an area in which using precise language is helpful in avoiding using the language of bigotry. Notice how you asked if the CCP is off limits. It is very different to say China is responsible for Covid vs the CCP is responsible for Covid. One is ascribing fault to an entire nation, one is ascribing fault to a political party.

 

We have no problem making those distinctions when speaking of domestic issues, making note of what the Trump admin did or what the Biden admin is doing.

 

It shouldn’t be terribly difficult if one knows enough about the happenings in a nation to be critical of the actions of the government to narrow the criticism to even just the ruling party.

 

We just spent the last 4 years having this board reflexively refer to everything Trump said as a dog-whistle to white supremacists, but when presented with a peer-reviewed study showing that particular criticisms of Israel are predominantly the realm of anti-Semites, you all want to explain it away because you personally don’t feel animosity towards Jews. I believe most on this board harbor no ill will towards Jews, but you could also make a point to avoid using the language of anti-Semites when you opine about Israel.

 

(I just finished lunch and have a few things I need to do so I’ll be unavailable to respond for a bit if you do respond to this)

[Ghost_MH]

35 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Do you think what you just said about Bibi is comparable to the bolded quotes?

 

I also think this is an area in which using precise language is helpful in avoiding using the language of bigotry. Notice how you asked if the CCP is off limits. It is very different to say China is responsible for Covid vs the CCP is responsible for Covid. One is ascribing fault to an entire nation, one is ascribing fault to a political party.

 

We have no problem making those distinctions when speaking of domestic issues, making note of what the Trump admin did or what the Biden admin is doing.

 

It shouldn’t be terribly difficult if one knows enough about the happenings in a nation to be critical of the actions of the government to narrow the criticism to even just the ruling party.

 

We just spent the last 4 years having this board reflexively refer to everything Trump said as a dog-whistle to white supremacists, but when presented with a peer-reviewed study showing that particular criticisms of Israel are predominantly the realm of anti-Semites, you all want to explain it away because you personally don’t feel animosity towards Jews. I believe most on this board harbor no ill will towards Jews, but you could also make a point to avoid using the language of anti-Semites when you opine about Israel.

 

(I just finished lunch and have a few things I need to do so I’ll be unavailable to respond for a bit if you do respond to this)

 

It's the joys of dealing with a government like China's. If you have a nice way of referring to the Israeli government while also clearly not referring to its citizens, I'm all for it.

 

Racists suck, but it feels like we've flown so far in the wrong discretion here that even criticizing the actions of a world government. I've days before that I think the US is mostly run by rich retirees that are either evil, incompetent, or both. How would you prefer I share similar complaints about the Israeli government, but in such a way that it doesn't come across as critical of just Jewish people?

[Greatoneshere]

While I think we can do both, in a discussion of Israel and Palestine, I think we should all be a lot less worried about anti-Semitism in that context and a lot more worried for the livelihoods of the day-to-day of the Palestinian people. I hate that anti-Semites jump on the anti-Israel (technically, anti-Israel government) bandwagon to commit their hate, it's awful and it sucks.

 

But let's not lose the forest for the trees. The core of the issue is the purgatorial hell the Palestinian people are currently in, not anti-Semitism, and actual solutions that get them out of their predicament, if any. Anything else, protests to SJW stuff, is pointless without follow up.

[Jason]

Wow check out these antisemites.

 

 

[Fizzzzle]

All you gotta do to get out of your military service in Israel is develop a debilitating drug addiction, that's what one of my ex girlfriends did. Doesn't have to be so dramatic.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

"Supporting Palestinian rights is antisemitic because Israel wants it to be"

Supporting Palestinian rights is antisemitic because Israel wants it to be

WWW.NBCNEWS.COM

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The irony is that Zionism and antisemitism are each other's best recruiting tools.

 

[Greatoneshere]

12 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

"Supporting Palestinian rights is antisemitic because Israel wants it to be"

Supporting Palestinian rights is antisemitic because Israel wants it to be

WWW.NBCNEWS.COM

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The irony is that Zionism and antisemitism are each other's best recruiting tools.

 

 

I mean, there's no question the Israeli government and war machine certainly want that to be the association.

[Air_Delivery]

And I feel that people are disingenuous when they try to associate the two in order to obfuscate their true opinion.