Genocide Israel be genociding thread

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

it won't pass but still. 

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

13 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

To be perfectly honest at this stage I'm not really sure. To me, all of this for the Palestinians is sadly too little, too late, in terms of people protesting on their behalf. 7 million are left, with few out in the diaspora across the world. To me Israel has already won, ala the US with Native Americans, who remain marginalized, mostly on reservations, few of them left. I hate that it's the case but it is.

 

I've always been a fan of the one state solution (I know, most hate it). Especially at this point. I know Palestinians want their own country to maintain and keep their own identity, but they can do that in Israel. It's not as if every ethnicity on Earth needs or even has their own country and they live just fine (note the difference between ethnicity and race). I'm sure Palestinians can't stomach being "Israeli citizens" with Israeli passports but it's better than this purgatorial hell they continue to live in. Obviously, Israel must acquiesce to a number of demands for me to be okay with a one state solutions. Mechanisms must be put in place in terms of reparations, safeguards in case of future policy regressions towards Palestinians, laws that make them equal citizens with equal rights that get equal treatment with Israelis. It won't be easy. It's not for France with Muslims, America for all its mixed races, and for black vs. white people in South Africa. That's life. At this point, we need to call a spade a spade.

 

Yet, with all that being said, Israel's jackboot on Palestinian peoples' throats under the cover of protecting themselves from Hamas is horrific to my eyes the same way any genocide is, whether that be Russia killing Chechnyans, China killing Uiyger Muslims, and so on. It all looks and sounds the same to me. That's my take anyway without writing like a 50 page thesis on it.  

It's a complicated issue, with no apparent solution.  The fundamental difference in Israel/Palestine is that you have two groups, where many of its populace want a religious based government.  A Jewish state and an Islamic state are fundamentally hard to reconcile.  It's less about people who have different coloured skins, rather people who fundamentally want a different form of government.

[Guest]

The Jewishness of Israel is also different from the Islamishness of, say, Iran or maybe even the Christianness of the early European settlements in the Americas.
 

Being Jewish has both secular and religious components, and everyone has a different mix from completely secular to completely religious. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 minute ago, sblfilms said:

The Jewishness of Israel is also different from the Islamishness of, say, Iran or maybe even the Christianness of the early European settlements in the Americas.
 

Being Jewish has both secular and religious components, and everyone has a different mix from completely secular to completely religious. 

Absolutely.  It is however, completely incompatible with being an Islamic state -- which is what Hamas is explicitly fighting for.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Absolutely.  It is however, completely incompatible with being an Islamic state -- which is what Hamas is explicitly fighting for.

Oh, certainly. Just thinking about the notion of a one state solution under the Israeli flag. It’s an actual possibility in a way that I don’t think is possible in the other direction. There are places under the control of the Abbas government that Jews are simply not allowed to go because they will be killed. Arabs, including Muslim Arabs, have no similar restrictions in Israel to my knowledge 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

The State of Israel is a western imperial project and that alone, not religion, makes peace impossible. Just ask Theodore Hertzl, the spiritual founder of the state: 

Quote

" When we occupy the land, we shall bring immediate benefits to the state that receives us. We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly ... It goes without saying that we shall respectfully tolerate persons of other faiths and protect their property, their honor, and their freedom with the harshest means of coercion. This is another area in which we shall set the entire world a wonderful example ... Should there be many such immovable owners in individual areas [who would not sell their property to us], we shall simply leave them there and develop our commerce in the direction of other areas which belong to us"

Not hard to see how this thinking goes from here to what we now see in Gaza and the west bank. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

7 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

The State of Israel is a western imperial project and that alone, not religion, makes peace impossible. Just ask Theodore Hertzl, the spiritual founder of the state: 

Not hard to see how this thinking goes from here to what we now see in Gaza and the west bank. 

He lived in the 19th century -- 19th century thinking (almost everywhere) is fundamentally different than modern times.

 

The current state of affairs was an ill-conceived notion of the 2-state solution created after the fall of the Ottoman empire.  Which has had, with the benefit of hindsight, predictably terrible results.  What happened over the last 100+ years doesn't change the fact that we are where we are.  

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

25 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

He lived in the 19th century -- 19th century thinking (almost everywhere) is fundamentally different than modern times.

 

The current state of affairs was an ill-conceived notion of the 2-state solution created after the fall of the Ottoman empire.  Which has had, with the benefit of hindsight, predictably terrible results.  What happened over the last 100+ years doesn't change the fact that we are where we are.  

Dude was name checked in the Israeli declaration of independence as the spiritual father of the state. Self proclaimed zionists (the ideology of which Hertzl famously articulated and largely founded) were founders of the Israeli state. These are not people who didn't know his ideology, and probably knew it quite intimately. The ideological underpinnings of the state are extremely important. And these underpinnings are fundamentally western imperialist, the same general playbook as what Europeans and European descendants did to Native North Americans in order to specifically create a Jewish state

[AbsolutSurgen]

3 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Dude was name checked in the Israeli declaration of independence as the spiritual father of the state. Self proclaimed zionists (the ideology of which Hertzl famously articulated and largely founded) were founders of the Israeli state. These are not people who didn't know his ideology, and probably knew it quite intimately. The ideological underpinnings of the state are extremely important. And these underpinnings are fundamentally western imperialist, the same general playbook as what Europeans and European descendants did to Native North Americans.

Israel was founded 70 years ago.  

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Just now, AbsolutSurgen said:

Israel was founded 70 years ago.  

No shit for real? So it's not worth examining the ideology of American founders given that this country was founded nearly 250 years ago? Do you realize how nonsensical that sounds? This 70 years ago history didn't happen out of the blue for no reason but was the culmination of decades of specific ideological work towards the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine.

[AbsolutSurgen]

4 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

No shit for real? So it's not worth examining the ideology of American founders given that this country was founded nearly 250 years ago? Do you realize how nonsensical that sounds? This 70 years ago history didn't happen out of the blue for no reason but was the culmination of decades of specific ideological work towards the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine.

Trying to cure the ills of previous generations does nothing to solve today's problems.

[Guest]

I am not sure that the underpinnings of formation are relevant to how to proceed forward today, but I’d be interested to hear why you do @b_m_b_m_b_m

[Jason]

12 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I am not sure that the underpinnings of formation are relevant to how to proceed forward today, but I’d be interested to hear why you do @b_m_b_m_b_m

 

The people who founded the Israeli state are either still alive or were recently alive. This isn’t like trying too divine what our founding fathers meant, you can still ask the Israeli ones what they had in mind, or if they’re dead then today’s Israeli leaders likely got to talk about it with them before they died.

[AbsolutSurgen]

12 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

The people who founded the Israeli state are either still alive or were recently alive. This isn’t like trying too divine what our founding fathers meant, you can still ask the Israeli ones what they had in mind, or if they’re dead then today’s Israeli leaders likely got to talk about it with them before they died.

You are absolutely right.  But how does that help us move forward today?

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Because the Israeli state was formed specifically as a western imperialist project to expropriate property specifically for an explicitly Jewish state, there can and will be no peace, let alone justice, until that ideological basis is repudiated. You can't build a lasting home on a broken foundation, and it can't be repaired until it is even acknowledged that something is rotten or broken. 

 

The current open violence can largely be traced back to evictions of Palestinians from their homes in East Jerusalem, but it is the same thing that's been going on since the foundation of the state: removing and relocating incumbents so that settlers, who in this case happen to be Jewish, can move in/back in. Whether or not there's paperwork to prove legality of ownership is entirely besides the point given that the basis of legality here is derived from the barrel of a gun in the service of explicitly Zionist goals.

[AbsolutSurgen]

The current situation is largely here because of poor decisions/actions made by western powers after the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WW1, and the ones that continued to happen for decades later.  Those kind of behaviours mostly dominated the history of Eurasia for the previous several thousand years.  It wasn't unique to Israel.

 

Israel, does however, exist today.  And there is no way to put the genie back in the bottle.

 

Hamas is the defacto government in Gaza, and it's current charter explicitly lays out that its purpose is to use jihad to from an Islamic state that encompasses the entire area of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank -- an prohibits them from negotiating a peace that doesn't meet that goal.  As long as their goal is to deny the right of Israel to exist today, regardless of what happened between 1920 and 1970,  there will never be peace.

[Ghost_MH]

The only peace will be from a single state where both governments are dissolved and everything starts getting scratch with both Israelis and Palestinians being held as equals in the law and within government. I don't know if what's currently in place can actually be fixed. That kind of broken can very rarely, if ever, be fixed from within.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

25 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Israel, does however, exist today.  And there is no way to put the genie back in the bottle.

Refusal to consider the existence of a state in Palestine that is not founded upon Zionism means there will never be peace.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Refusal to consider the existence of a state in Palestine that is not founded upon Zionism means there will never be peace.

Glad you’ve joined team “there is no solution”  

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 minute ago, sblfilms said:

Glad you’ve joined team “there is no solution”  

There is a solution but it is a long process of reconciliation and justice in one democratic state founded on these principles for all people in Palestine, Jewish, Palestinian, Christian, and others. A Zionist state will not achieve peace, and it's abolition is the first step towards peace and justice.

[Guest]

As long as anti-semitism exists, there will be a belief in the need for a Jewish state as a refuge for Jews everywhere. And I’m not here to tell them different.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

9 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

As long as anti-semitism exists, there will be a belief in the need for a Jewish state as a refuge for Jews everywhere. And I’m not here to tell them different.

The only problem here is that to maintain this particular version of a Jewish state (right wing and Zionist) in Palestine requires either apartheid, genocide / ethnic cleansing, two states, or some combination thereof. Square that circle!

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Be worth elaborating when you say it's a Jewish state, how that is constituted. It's it ethnically Jewish? Religiously? What does that mean? The people founding Israel had an idea, and you see it's fruit now.

 

It's not too dissimilar to how America is also going through a crisis on what it means to be American, but that's a take for another day

[Guest]

1 minute ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Be worth elaborating when you say it's a Jewish state, how that is constituted. It's it ethnically Jewish? Religiously? What does that mean? The people founding Israel had an idea, and you see it's fruit now.

 

It's not too dissimilar to how America is also going through a crisis on what it means to be American, but that's a take for another day

As I mentioned earlier, Jewishness is a spectrum from completely secular to completely religious, and Zionists more specifically fall into both the religious and secular varieties to all varying degrees. Even Israeli Arabs have been shown to support Israel as a Jewish state so long as minority rights are protected in various surveys.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Is ita Jewish state if they're not the majority? Can it be a Jewish state without being the majority?

[Guest]

I would reckon the answer would be “no” from what I’ve read

[AbsolutSurgen]

51 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Refusal to consider the existence of a state in Palestine that is not founded upon Zionism means there will never be peace.

Probably.

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 hour ago, Ghost_MH said:

The only peace will be from a single state where both governments are dissolved and everything starts getting scratch with both Israelis and Palestinians being held as equals in the law and within government. I don't know if what's currently in place can actually be fixed. That kind of broken can very rarely, if ever, be fixed from within.

That would be great.  The challenge is to get either side to want this.

[AbsolutSurgen]

49 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

There is a solution but it is a long process of reconciliation and justice in one democratic state founded on these principles for all people in Palestine, Jewish, Palestinian, Christian, and others. A Zionist state will not achieve peace, and it's abolition is the first step towards peace and justice.

You're absolutely right -- if either side wants this, it would be a great solution.

31 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

The only problem here is that to maintain this particular version of a Jewish state (right wing and Zionist) in Palestine requires either apartheid, genocide / ethnic cleansing, two states, or some combination thereof. Square that circle!

Pretty much.

[Joe]

I mean, if the posters in this thread can come to an agreement, I’m optimistic for Palestine and Israel as well!

[Fizzzzle]

The problem is, as things stand, that would never be democratically decided by the people who live there.

 

Ideally, the area would operate as some kind of UN mandate while a new government is formed, but again, try selling that to anyone involved. The palestinians have good reason to not be fond of foreign mandates and israel... Well, obviously.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

47 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I would reckon the answer would be “no” from what I’ve read

Now do a quick Google on the Arab population of Israel and separately the west bank and Gaza. Combined with faster Palestinian population growth and it wouldn't be a Jewish Zionist state for much longer!

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

9 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Now do a quick Google on the Arab population of Israel and separately the west bank and Gaza. Combined with faster Palestinian population growth and it wouldn't be a Jewish Zionist state for much longer!

 

That's why the Israelis will NEVER agree to the "one-state solution" - they know damned well that it's a demographic dead-end for them.

[Ghost_MH]

36 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

That would be great.  The challenge is to get either side to want this.

 

It's very likely that you can find many Palestinians that would want this, but the issue is that Israel has the power here and absolutely no incentive to dissolve their elected government that does well to represent their ethnic needs in the face of eventually becoming minorities.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

That's why the Israelis will NEVER agree to the "one-state solution" - they know damned well that it's a demographic dead-end for them.

Correct.