General Gaming It's been 3+ years since BOTW, and we're heading into a new console gen

[crispy4000]

 

Thought it would interesting to reflect on this now that we're heading into a new generation that will emphasize new things.

 

Back when BoTW first released, it was a major departure from standard open world template, and arguably still is:

 

- A significant number of collectables were puzzle oriented.

- Hardly any handholding, hardly any story.

- No level gating.  Every locale was accessible to you from the start if you had the determination/ingenuity to make it work.

- Map icons are marked entirely by you.  Distant landscape markets required a vantage point.

- Climbing towers had a puzzle component.

- You can climb everything, but must have the stamina to do it.  Craftable items can temporarily increase it.

- High places are used to glide off to reach further destinations. (see also: Arkham games)

- Environmental puzzles of large and small significance exist within the open world landscape.

- Physics are applied to everything in an open world.  Including magic powers with unlimited use.

- Real world properties of items and conditions are approximated in how things reacted to one another.  If you think it would work, it typically works.

- You can beat the final boss from the onset if you are skilled enough, cutting out dozens of hours of game time.

- Weapons and shields break frequently. (one of the more controversial elements)

- Health is replenished entirely by cooking/scavenging.  No health drops or inns.  (survival games were doing it too, tbh)

 

There's probably more I'm forgetting.  Even if you don't prefer it to previous Zeldas (I don't), it's fair to say it was a significant game that deserved the recognition.

Has it actually influenced other games?  Every once and a while some indie game trailer comes along that this board automatically dismisses as a BoTW clone.  But none have made a splash, perhaps because almost none of them have come out.

 

More than that, I get the impression that AAA devs largely passed on it.  I haven't played RDR2, so maybe that's a bit of an exception?  Kinda?  We haven't seen Gods & Monsters or Everwild yet in game.  But it still seems like this gen was more about chasing Dark Souls or the Ubisoft template.

 

I am bit more excited for BOTW2 as a result.  I'm just surprised we haven't seen more of it by now.

[legend]

If any yet, not many. But it might still be a bit early to see the effects. Games get planned long in advance.

[crispy4000]

7 minutes ago, legend said:

If any yet, not many. But it might still be a bit early to see the effects. Games get planned long in advance.

 

That's true.  But if there was to be a wave of AAA inspiration from BoTW, we should be starting to see it by now, or very soon.

[Paperclyp]

To be honest I don’t feel like Breath of the Wild was terribly unique as a game among games, just as a Zelda game it was vastly different from its predecessors. 
 

I certainly never got the feeling that other devs were going to start making games with BOTW as a template. 

[Ghost_MH]

Funnily enough, I just beat a game that reminded me of BotW. That game being The Touryst. It was on sale in Nintendo's Summer Sale event. Sure, there's no real combat and it's not a huge open world, but it's open ended with no hand holding, barely there story, and puzzles you start solving before you even realize there's a puzzle. It's tiny and literally tilt-shift miniatures compared to BotW's vast vistas, but they share a lot more DNA than you would think at first blush. I could go for more games sharing that DNA.

[crispy4000]

10 minutes ago, Paperclyp said:

To be honest I don’t feel like Breath of the Wild was terribly unique as a game among games, just as a Zelda game it was vastly different from its predecessors. 

Agree to disagree.  It's recognizable as an open world game, but very far from being 'one of those.'

I'd say similar things about Metroid Prime when it came out relative to the FPS genre as a whole.  Sadly, that's one of the ones that the industry didn't notice at all.  We got Supraland and Journey to the Savage Planet almost two decades after the fact.

[heydude93]

I'm kinda surprised by the lack of games influenced by BOTW so far, but this might change soon now that we know Okami 2 will probably get made. 

[crispy4000]

3 minutes ago, heydude93 said:

I'm kinda surprised by the lack of games influenced by BOTW so far, but this might change soon now that we know Okami 2 will probably get made.  

 

He wants to pitch it post-COVID.  So not soon at all.

[legend]

26 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

That's true.  But if there was to be a wave of AAA inspiration from BoTW, we should be starting to see it by now, or very soon.

 

Yeah we probably should be seeing more games announced at this point at least. I'm willing to give it another couple years to see how it all pans out though. I hope other games at least adopt some aspects of what BotW did.

[HGLatinBoy]

 

[Keyser_Soze]

It influenced other nintendo games to have items that break. Other than that, no.

[Paperclyp]

34 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Agree to disagree.  It's recognizable as an open world game, but very far from being 'one of those.'

I'd say similar things about Metroid Prime when it came out relative to the FPS genre as a whole.  Sadly, that's one of the ones that the industry didn't notice at all.  We got Supraland and Journey to the Savage Planet almost two decades after the fact.

I guess I just don’t find what it does to be something that devs are going to copy? 
 

It does a lot of things great, but nothing is terribly novel...so if they’re going to make it feel like BOTW it would be like making a carbon copy of the game rather than borrowing any novel mechanic it does I guess. 
 

Like Dark Souls has some very distinct characteristics and systems that it may not have invented necessarily, but it certainly made them into a thing that many other games copied. I don’t know what couple of things BOTW might have that makes me think it was going to have games obviously inspired by it. 

[crispy4000]

19 minutes ago, Paperclyp said:

 

Like Dark Souls has some very distinct characteristics and systems that it may not have invented necessarily, but it certainly made them into a thing that many other games copied. I don’t know what couple of things BOTW might have that makes me think it was going to have games obviously inspired by it. 

The list I made in the first post has plenty, IMO.

 

Thought of another game to take from at least one of them: the Yooka-Laylee 2D sequel lets you try the final level from the start without life upgrades.  You can choose to tackle it whenever.

[Paperclyp]

6 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

The list I made in the first post has plenty, IMO.

 

Thought of another game to take from at least one of them: the Yooka-Laylee 2D sequel lets you try the final level from the start without upgrades.  You can choose to tackle it whenever.

I guess what I’m saying is though that none of those felt so novel or unique to BOTW that I would ever encounter them in another game and think, “oh, like in BOTW!” 
 

I’m not trying to poo poo the game, it’s one of my favorite games of the generation. 

[JPDunks4]

Funny enough, I was having this discussion today.

 

I'm predicting that Halo Infinite, oddly enough, might be influenced in some ways by BoTW.  Now BoTW came out in 2017, so the time frames may not line up as Infinite must have been in production for at least a year or 2 by then, but I saw an interview on the first Trailer that really highlighted things they wanted to convey in the Trailer, and a lot of it sounded like the things BoTW were special for.

 

Exploring the World - Telling your own story - Mystery 

 

Halo Infinite is heavily being rumored to be an open world Halo.  It's a Spiritual reboot of the franchise.  I don't think Halo would become a primary puzzle game, but it could have some.  I think they could really lean heavily on exploring though.  Possibly Armor Abilities, Vehicles, and Weapons, as things you unlock to get more access to more exploration and areas.   In that first trailer, you also see those Light Beacons scattered in the distance on the Halo Ring, so could those represent the traditional Ubisoft style Towers we saw in BoTW too.  

 

Of course this is all speculation and kind of hoping they could possibly nail such a thing.  Obv Halo 4 and 5 were disappointing, and the prospect of a well made open world Halo style game got me pumped for a Franchise I haven't really cared much about in awhile. 

 

 

[crispy4000]

43 minutes ago, HGLatinBoy said:

 

Here’s the thing about that game: We haven’t actually seen it.  It’s a promo trailer.

 

I don’t really have a clue what it’s doing the same or different.  Just that the art style seems somewhat inspired by.

 

[crispy4000]

10 minutes ago, JPDunks4 said:

Funny enough, I was having this discussion today.

 

I'm predicting that Halo Infinite, oddly enough, might be influenced in some ways by BoTW.  Now BoTW came out in 2017, so the time frames may not line up as Infinite must have been in production for at least a year or 2 by then, but I saw an interview on the first Trailer that really highlighted things they wanted to convey in the Trailer, and a lot of it sounded like the things BoTW were special for.

 

Exploring the World - Telling your own story - Mystery 

 

Halo Infinite is heavily being rumored to be an open world Halo.  It's a Spiritual reboot of the franchise.  I don't think Halo would become a primary puzzle game, but it could have some.  I think they could really lean heavily on exploring though.  Possibly Armor Abilities, Vehicles, and Weapons, as things you unlock to get more access to more exploration and areas.   In that first trailer, you also see those Light Beacons scattered in the distance on the Halo Ring, so could those represent the traditional Ubisoft style Towers we saw in BoTW too.  

 

Of course this is all speculation and kind of hoping they could possibly nail such a thing.  Obv Halo 4 and 5 were disappointing, and the prospect of a well made open world Halo style game got me pumped for a Franchise I haven't really cared much about in awhile. 

 

 

I’d be stoked for that if they pulled it off.  They’d also have to prove that it won’t just feel like their own (better) version of Far Cry 2-5 or Rage 2.

 

Maybe take some inspiration from FireWatch’s map and compass navigation.

 

[crispy4000]

17 minutes ago, Paperclyp said:

I guess what I’m saying is though that none of those felt so novel or unique to BOTW that I would ever encounter them in another game and think, “oh, like in BOTW!” 
 

I’m not trying to poo poo the game, it’s one of my favorite games of the generation. 

If there’s ever another game that makes surfaces harder to climb during a storm, I think you’ll remember.

 

Don’t even think I want another game to do that, haha.

[HGLatinBoy]

25 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

Here’s the thing about that game: We haven’t actually seen it.  It’s a promo trailer.

 

I don’t really have a clue what it’s doing the same or different.  Just that the art style seems somewhat inspired by.

 

A playable build was leaked yesterday on... STADIA!!! 
 

 

[SimpleG]

1 hour ago, Paperclyp said:

To be honest I don’t feel like Breath of the Wild was terribly unique as a game among games, just as a Zelda game it was vastly different from its predecessors. 
 

I certainly never got the feeling that other devs were going to start making games with BOTW as a template. 

 

1 hour ago, Paperclyp said:

I guess I just don’t find what it does to be something that devs are going to copy? 
 

It does a lot of things great, but nothing is terribly novel...so if they’re going to make it feel like BOTW it would be like making a carbon copy of the game rather than borrowing any novel mechanic it does I guess. 
 

Like Dark Souls has some very distinct characteristics and systems that it may not have invented necessarily, but it certainly made them into a thing that many other games copied. I don’t know what couple of things BOTW might have that makes me think it was going to have games obviously inspired by it. 

 

41 minutes ago, Paperclyp said:

I guess what I’m saying is though that none of those felt so novel or unique to BOTW that I would ever encounter them in another game and think, “oh, like in BOTW!” 
 

I’m not trying to poo poo the game, it’s one of my favorite games of the generation. 

I would argue but @Paperclyp made all my arguments for me

[Xbob42]

I have a much broader question: How often do we see game ideas actually copied by more than one or two other games? We definitely see big trends, like MOBAs and now Battle Royales, but outside of the absolute #1 titles, I can't think of too many games that feel like they were fully inspired by something else. I'd say Dark Souls is one of the most influential ones, but even then, when it comes to notable games with decent budgets, there's only really a handful of games clearly inspired by it. Once we leave that genre I stop really being able to name too many. I remember we were all 100% positive we'd be seeing a bunch of games using the Nemesis system, and I think it was implemented pretty well in Assassin's Creed Odyssey, but haven't seen it much elsewhere. And that's just a smaller idea.

 

Battle Passes on the other hand are in fucking EVERYTHING. Half the Roblox games my daughter plays have Battle Passes, and they even jammed them into PSO2.

[Keyser_Soze]

1 hour ago, Xbob42 said:

I have a much broader question: How often do we see game ideas actually copied by more than one or two other games? We definitely see big trends, like MOBAs and now Battle Royales, but outside of the absolute #1 titles, I can't think of too many games that feel like they were fully inspired by something else. I'd say Dark Souls is one of the most influential ones, but even then, when it comes to notable games with decent budgets, there's only really a handful of games clearly inspired by it. Once we leave that genre I stop really being able to name too many. I remember we were all 100% positive we'd be seeing a bunch of games using the Nemesis system, and I think it was implemented pretty well in Assassin's Creed Odyssey, but haven't seen it much elsewhere. And that's just a smaller idea.

 

Battle Passes on the other hand are in fucking EVERYTHING. Half the Roblox games my daughter plays have Battle Passes, and they even jammed them into PSO2.

 

The nemesis system was another one people were sure that other games would copy, but no one has.

[Bacon]

No. BOTW was already influenced from shitty open world games. It is far less unique than the other Zelda titles and is more similar the the horrible open world games of the 2010s. It seems games are trying to get away from that now so I doubt it. 

[Xbob42]

45 minutes ago, Bacon said:

No. BOTW was already influenced from shitty open world games. It is far less unique than the other Zelda titles and is more similar the the horrible open world games of the 2010s. It seems games are trying to get away from that now so I doubt it. 

While I disagree with the idea that BotW is bad or less unique than other Zelda games, I definitely agree it took more from the genre than what it gave by raw number of concepts alone.

 

However, for me personally, I like being able to interact with the world and its creatures far more than being guided down some dungeon full of single-solution puzzles and tedious battles, so BotW's inclusion of a largely physics-driven open world made it feel distinctly different from other open worlds at the time. For me, this contrast was most stark after trying to play Horizon Zero Dawn after BotW. Horizon had fancier graphics, but Aloy felt like an overlay on a static map, not a participant in any action outside of combat. You can traverse the world of BotW by cleverly using a rock to fly, that's my kinda ridiculous physics.

I still feel like BotW had some significant flaws partly caused by its attempt to try so many new things for the series at once, while the few new things for the genre seem to have worked out pretty well. For example: Getting all your tools at the start (like you can do pretty early in Link Between Worlds) meant you didn't come across dozens of shrines you weren't prepared for. On the other hand, because you almost never had any cool new tools in those shrines, it made them pretty boring, you always knew you'd get a spirit orb and some temporary weapons. Very, VERY rarely you'd get a piece of an armor set, which is very nice, but unbelievably rare.

 

Further, while the lack of a billion items on the map made exploring in general more interesting, if you really get down to it, you just climbed up somewhere high and used your telescope to mark whatever you wanted to check out. While it's more natural feeling, it's kind of the same thing, it just takes longer. I think no giant glowing beams would've worked better, and towers being much more rare.

 

Ack, can't try to make this yet another dissection of the parts of BotW I hope to see fixed in the sequel. I'll just say if they can address the fairly major issues I had with the game (I had no issues with weapons breaking, but it was horrendously cumbersome to switch between them, for example) then I'll be incredibly excited, because no part of BotW's issues were something I found fundamentally flawed or unfixable.

[Bacon]

I mean, if the game just had dungeons and some weapons that could always be used, I would have liked it much better. The Open World is probably one of the best open worlds in a fantasy setting. But I got bored with that after 50 hours and I ended up spending 50 more hours bored, climbing shit I didn't want to climb anymore. The one of the biggest issues is that you are better off "beating" the game before actually exploring the world. Or at the very least, doing the 4 main beasts. 

 

Really, I just wish the game gave me a reason to play it other than to play it. BOTW only had "save the princess".  Like, the only reason to do shrines for for a personal benefit. The story of the game doesn't really care if you do them or not. Whereas in other Zelda games, you have game given reasons to do all of the main content. I do like being told what to do in a video game. I don't really want the "freedom" to do whatever I want. 

[heydude93]

Regarding SOM's nemesis system, the upcoming project from Ghost Story Games (Studio founded by Bioshock alumni Ken Levine and Shawn Roberts) will be an immersive sim with emergent gameplay based heavily on it, so that's going to be a thing.  No footage yet, but lots of details in this presentation from a while back:

 

 

 

 

[crispy4000]

10 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

I have a much broader question: How often do we see game ideas actually copied by more than one or two other games? We definitely see big trends, like MOBAs and now Battle Royales, but outside of the absolute #1 titles, I can't think of too many games that feel like they were fully inspired by something else. I'd say Dark Souls is one of the most influential ones, but even then, when it comes to notable games with decent budgets, there's only really a handful of games clearly inspired by it. Once we leave that genre I stop really being able to name too many. I remember we were all 100% positive we'd be seeing a bunch of games using the Nemesis system, and I think it was implemented pretty well in Assassin's Creed Odyssey, but haven't seen it much elsewhere. And that's just a smaller idea.

 

Battle Passes on the other hand are in fucking EVERYTHING. Half the Roblox games my daughter plays have Battle Passes, and they even jammed them into PSO2.

I think might depend more on how easy it is to copy.  Slay the Spire pretty much invented the card-based roguelike, and now clones of it are everywhere.

 

Things like building puzzles into the landscape itself, especially the ones writ large, takes more of a budget.  It’s so plainly obvious as a method to make the world feel less predictable and static.  The genre’s been sorely needing it.  But I’d argue that even BoTW could have taken the idea further.

[Bloodporne]

4 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

While I disagree with the idea that BotW is bad or less unique than other Zelda games, I definitely agree it took more from the genre than what it gave by raw number of concepts alone.

 

However, for me personally, I like being able to interact with the world and its creatures far more than being guided down some dungeon full of single-solution puzzles and tedious battles, so BotW's inclusion of a largely physics-driven open world made it feel distinctly different from other open worlds at the time. For me, this contrast was most stark after trying to play Horizon Zero Dawn after BotW. Horizon had fancier graphics, but Aloy felt like an overlay on a static map, not a participant in any action outside of combat. You can traverse the world of BotW by cleverly using a rock to fly, that's my kinda ridiculous physics.

I still feel like BotW had some significant flaws partly caused by its attempt to try so many new things for the series at once, while the few new things for the genre seem to have worked out pretty well. For example: Getting all your tools at the start (like you can do pretty early in Link Between Worlds) meant you didn't come across dozens of shrines you weren't prepared for. On the other hand, because you almost never had any cool new tools in those shrines, it made them pretty boring, you always knew you'd get a spirit orb and some temporary weapons. Very, VERY rarely you'd get a piece of an armor set, which is very nice, but unbelievably rare.

 

Further, while the lack of a billion items on the map made exploring in general more interesting, if you really get down to it, you just climbed up somewhere high and used your telescope to mark whatever you wanted to check out. While it's more natural feeling, it's kind of the same thing, it just takes longer. I think no giant glowing beams would've worked better, and towers being much more rare.

 

Ack, can't try to make this yet another dissection of the parts of BotW I hope to see fixed in the sequel. I'll just say if they can address the fairly major issues I had with the game (I had no issues with weapons breaking, but it was horrendously cumbersome to switch between them, for example) then I'll be incredibly excited, because no part of BotW's issues were something I found fundamentally flawed or unfixable.

I think if they could strike a balance between BotW and the older 3D Zelda dungeons, that'd be a near-perfect game. It's like between Skyward Sword and BotW they went into two absurd extremes. 

[gamer.tv]

13 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

I think if they could strike a balance between BotW and the older 3D Zelda dungeons, that'd be a near-perfect game. It's like between Skyward Sword and BotW they went into two absurd extremes. 

 

This is the right approach to a Zelda game (or at least the next proper sequel). I loved the BotW open world approach and the focus on key abilities, rather than items, as a means of solving puzzles. I think I would like a slower approach to unlocking them, to provide a staggered opening of the world, or at least entry to certain key areas. I would also love a return back to puzzle based dungeons, each with their own character. It's been a while I admit, but whilst locating the Divine Beasts felt interesting, completing them was much less so. Give me a bit of tradition with forests, water, fire, shadow, spirit, wind, sky, mini-dungeons and small trials (which were wonderful) with that freedom and I couldn't think of a better game to play. 

 

Oh, and only have breakable special weapons, but provide a core of medium strength weapons that do not break, just so you have something to fall back on. 

[best3444]

50 minutes ago, Bloodporne said:

I think if they could strike a balance between BotW and the older 3D Zelda dungeons, that'd be a near-perfect game.

 

Here's hoping BOTW 2 nails this!

[TheLeon]

Wow, it has been three years, huh? Maybe I’ll go back and actually finish it some day. 

[ShreddieMercury]

I don't think many games have used BotW's ideas so far, except for maybe a few exceptions.  I also don't understand the soft backlash of people claiming that the game wasn't all that original.  It's such a radical departure from the majority of modern game design that it, to me at least, feels like one of the only real markers of progress for games within the past console generation.  The entire game is built around intrinsic rewards - there are armor sets and a few scant upgrades for your tools, but by and large the game relies on a pure sense of discovery and exploration to drive players forward.  When I played the game, I wasn't drawn by the chance to upgrade my skill tree or grind for weapons.  I was excited by the prospect of pure adventure, by feeling like you are really traversing and discovering this world.  It's a systems-driven, physics-sandbox, open-world game with no map icons where you can climb nearly every surface.

 

The game that I do think comes close, though I can't speak to how much it was influenced given the development timeline, is Outer Wilds.  Similarly, everything in that game is open to you from the start, and the primary game mechanic is discovery and exploration.  It also relies completely on creating your own adventures in the world rather than guiding you in a specific direction.

 

[Paperclyp]

4 minutes ago, ShreddieMercuryRising said:

I don't think many games have used BotW's ideas so far, except for maybe a few exceptions.  I also don't understand the soft backlash of people claiming that the game wasn't all that original.  It's such a radical departure from the majority of modern game design that it, to me at least, feels like one of the only real markers of progress for games within the past console generation.  The entire game is built around intrinsic rewards - there are armor sets and a few scant upgrades for your tools, but by and large the game relies on a pure sense of discovery and exploration to drive players forward.  When I played the game, I wasn't drawn by the chance to upgrade my skill tree or grind for weapons.  I was excited by the prospect of pure adventure, by feeling like you are really traversing and discovering this world.  It's a systems-driven, physics-sandbox, open-world game with no map icons where you can climb nearly every surface.

 

The game that I do think comes close, though I can't speak to how much it was influenced given the development timeline, is Outer Wilds.  Similarly, everything in that game is open to you from the start, and the primary game mechanic is discovery and exploration.  It also relies completely on creating your own adventures in the world rather than guiding you in a specific direction.

 

The Outer Wilds was like a college project a long time ago and was pretty much fully conceptualized long before BOTW existed. It was influenced by Majora's Mask, however. 

[Jason]

8 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

However, for me personally, I like being able to interact with the world and its creatures far more than being guided down some dungeon full of single-solution puzzles and tedious battles, so BotW's inclusion of a largely physics-driven open world made it feel distinctly different from other open worlds at the time. For me, this contrast was most stark after trying to play Horizon Zero Dawn after BotW. Horizon had fancier graphics, but Aloy felt like an overlay on a static map, not a participant in any action outside of combat. You can traverse the world of BotW by cleverly using a rock to fly, that's my kinda ridiculous physics.

 

I liked that in BotW that if you REALLY wanted to, you could usually do stuff like find some ridiculous route up the side of a mountain that involved just brute-force climbing it and constantly pausing to use stamina-restoring items. I feel like a lot of open-world games still prevent that kind of thing, but it feels a lot more natural to have there be the smart way to do things (with brute forcing your way up the side of the mountain being the dumb way to do it) rather than the right/mandatory way to do things.

[crispy4000]

Poll is very divided.  That’s neat to see.

 

10 hours ago, HGLatinBoy said:

A playable build was leaked yesterday on... STADIA!!! 
 

 

The influence is there, especially with the circular stamina wheel.  (First introduced in SS actually.)  But man does that look rough.  Let’s hope it’s early.

 

It also illustrates why the glider was such an important part of what made BOTW click.  I like that there’s a bit more to jumping however.