DeWine signs executive order banning gender surgeries for minors.

[CastletonSnob]

Ohio governor signs executive order banning gender surgeries for minors

WWW.NBCNEWS.COM

---

Surgeries for minors are rare and are generally not recommended by medical associations, most of which oppose broad bans on transition-related care.

 

[best3444]

Every state should ban it. You should have to be 18 yrs or older to change sex. Even then, that's young. The brain isn't fully developed to make such a life altering decision. 

[outsida]

I’m tired of this trans-panic BS. Why are we dedicating so much energy to something that is like a fraction of a fraction of a percent. 

[CitizenVectron]

13 minutes ago, best3444 said:

Every state should ban it. You should have to be 18 yrs or older to change sex. Even then, that's young. The brain isn't fully developed to make such a life altering decision. 

 

Ban sex until 18, as well?

[Kal-El814]

22 minutes ago, best3444 said:

Every state should ban it. You should have to be 18 yrs or older to change sex. Even then, that's young. The brain isn't fully developed to make such a life altering decision. 

 

Bruh you don't even have to read the article on this one.

 

Quote

Surgeries for minors are rare and are generally not recommended by medical associations, most of which oppose broad bans on transition-related care.

 

This is not something that happens often, it really only occurs in the case of severe dysmorphia, regret rates for gender reassignment surgery are way less than surgeries to correct things like back pain, etc.

 

If there was some explosion in gender reassignment surgery for kids, that would be one thing. There isn't. People who like to complain about virtue signaling should be ripshit about stuff like this, since that's absolutely what it is, to say nothing of using the law as a cudgel to do so.

[Jason]

Yeah pretty much all the gender care for kids is giving them puberty blockers to delay having to make a decision like surgery until they're 18. At that point they can either get surgery and undergo the other puberty and get much better results than if they'd gone through the biological puberty, or just go off the puberty blockers and go through their biological puberty without any real negative effects from delaying it. Acting like gender surgery on kids is widespread is intentionally making shit up to foam up a moral panic. 

[best3444]

31 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

Ban sex until 18, as well?

 

lol it was banned for me until I was 18. 

 

20 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

Bruh you don't even have to read the article on this one.

 

 

This is not something that happens often, it really only occurs in the case of severe dysmorphia, regret rates for gender reassignment surgery are way less than surgeries to correct things like back pain, etc.

 

If there was some explosion in gender reassignment surgery for kids, that would be one thing. There isn't. People who like to complain about virtue signaling should be ripshit about stuff like this, since that's absolutely what it is, to say nothing of using the law as a cudgel to do so.

 

 Interesting info you provided and yea, the percentage of this issue is extremely miniscule. I do absolutely feel for children who don't feel comfortable in the gender they were born into. 

[CitizenVectron]

46 minutes ago, Jason said:

Yeah pretty much all the gender care for kids is giving them puberty blockers to delay having to make a decision like surgery until they're 18. At that point they can either get surgery and undergo the other puberty and get much better results than if they'd gone through the biological puberty, or just go off the puberty blockers and go through their biological puberty without any real negative effects from delaying it. Acting like gender surgery on kids is widespread is intentionally making shit up to foam up a moral panic. 

 

Rest assured that banning blockers is next for these people.

[marioandsonic]

12 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

Rest assured that banning blockers is next for these people.

 

And then just straight up banning trans people.

[TUFKAK]

Ban football until 18 too, no child should be exposing themselves to head trauma until they fully understand the consequences!

[Nokra]

7 hours ago, best3444 said:

Every state should ban it. You should have to be 18 yrs or older to change sex. Even then, that's young. The brain isn't fully developed to make such a life altering decision. 

What other "unhealthy" activities should be banned for children? Why is 18 the magic age where people are suddenly able to make decisions? Why should the state override the decisions of kids, their parents, and their doctors?  

[DPCyric]

8 hours ago, CastletonSnob said:

Ohio governor signs executive order banning gender surgeries for minors

WWW.NBCNEWS.COM

---

Surgeries for minors are rare and are generally not recommended by medical associations, most of which oppose broad bans on transition-related care.

 

 

Does this ban surgeries on babies that have multiple genitalia?

[best3444]

12 hours ago, TUFKAK said:

Ban football until 18 too, no child should be exposing themselves to head trauma until they fully understand the consequences!

 

Yes, because cutting a boys penis off at the age of 10yrs old is like playing midget football. Give me a fuckin break. It's unethical to change a child's sex before they are adults. 18 is such a fuckin stupid age to be considered an adult, too. 

 

You should experience real life before deciding to change your sex. It's a gigantic deal that you guys are making it like it's not. Fuck a doctor or parents opinion, too.

 

I was friends with 2 trans people and they would absolutely agree with me on this. 

[Kal-El814]

6 minutes ago, best3444 said:

It's unethical to change a child's sex before they are adults.

 

Is it ethical to prevent access to a specific kind of surgery if the child, their parents, and their doctors agree it is in the child's best interest?

[Spork3245]

People who fail to acknowledge that there is an extensive and long period of care before gender transition surgery really need to read up. There’s AMA guidelines for this and surgery is never done willy-nilly.

[CayceG]

reuters.com

WWW.REUTERS.COM

 

Anyone want to guess how many sex reassignment surgeries were performed on people under 18 in 2021? 

 

 

 

 

Fewer than 300. 

 

This is simply not a problem needing legislation.

[best3444]

16 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

Is it ethical to prevent access to a specific kind of surgery if the child, their parents, and their doctors agree it is in the child's best interest?

 

I will leave this conversation now. This is where trouble begins for me. I will say you guys come off as pretty educated individuals but some of the stuff said here is ridiculous. Like this that I quoted. 

[SuperSpreader]

I have a similar PERSONAL perspective as best, with the exception of needing to correct issues at birth. I personally believe surgeries should be post 18. At the same time I'm not part of this community and it doesn't directly affect me so I guess chop away? Choice and freedom and all. If it was for me there'd be no circumcision either and everyone would have to be vaccinated and homeschooling + private schools would be illegal but 🤷‍♂️

[TUFKAK]

6 minutes ago, best3444 said:

 

Yes, because cutting a boys penis off at the age of 10yrs old is like playing midget football. Give me a fuckin break. It's unethical to change a child's sex before they are adults. 18 is such a fuckin stupid age to be considered an adult, too. 

 

You should experience real life before deciding to change your sex. It's a gigantic deal that you guys are making it like it's not. Fuck a doctor or parents opinion, too.

 

I was friends with 2 trans people and they would absolutely agree with me on this. 

It’s unethical to risk long term neurological damage from cte/tbi and concussions; we should be minimizing the risks until they’ve had a chance to experience real life, clearly we can’t trust kids to know what to do with their own bodies after all. Some politician with zero healthcare experience is who we should defer to on such complex topics.  I mean, the child may regret their decision to play such a risky sport in the future, we should think about that.

The trans girl I dated absolutely would not agree that the procedure should be banned, and I don’t know a single trans individual who does, and considering where I work and live I’m confident I know way more than everybody on this board.

[Kal-El814]

1 hour ago, best3444 said:

 

I will leave this conversation now. This is where trouble begins for me. I will say you guys come off as pretty educated individuals but some of the stuff said here is ridiculous. Like this that I quoted. 

 

It's fine to not know about or be informed about a topic, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

I don't form an opinion on this based on vibes, everything I've read suggests that when it comes to gender reassignment surgery for children it's:

 

1) Generally not recommended

2) Very rare

3) Only happens as a last resort in cases of severe dysphoria which may lead to things like suicide attempts or repeated self-harm

 

So in cases like this, it's not like my perspective is, "hey man, if it feels good, do it." And like I said, if it seemed like this was suddenly happening all the time, I might have a different notion. But that's not what is happening. If there's reasonable evidence to suggest that in certain cases, giving a minor access to this surgery is going to keep them from killing themselves... I don't think it should be against the law.

 

And let's also be clear that in cases like this, it's not like the state is advocating for the improvement of access to other gender affirming care, or increased mental health services, or education on trans issues, etc. No. They think trans people are gross so they act like this is a "won't SOMEONE think of the children" issue. Their solution would be to convince trans kids that they're not trans. This is just chum for the base.

 

1 hour ago, SuperSpreader said:

I have a similar PERSONAL perspective as best, with the exception of needing to correct issues at birth. I personally believe surgeries should be post 18. At the same time I'm not part of this community and it doesn't directly affect me so I guess chop away? Choice and freedom and all. If it was for me there'd be no circumcision either and everyone would have to be vaccinated and homeschooling + private schools would be illegal but 🤷‍♂️

 

As a cis, straight, white dude who is generally free of mental health issues, I can't really put myself in the shoes of someone who's trans or someone who has some kind of body dysmorphia. I've never had that experience of feeling out of place in my own skin. I don't even know if those are the right terms to use. So going through surgery does seem like "a lot" to me; I can't really imagine it.

 

I think it's also worth remembering that for many people, though certainly not all, sexuality or gender identity are known pretty early on. A girl I was friends with in kindergarten wanted to see what kissing was like so we did a little peck. If a boy I was friends with asked me to do the same thing, I wouldn't have. Obviously none of this was sexual at that age but at 6 I wouldn't have kissed a boy. So I don't think it should be surprising that some kids who are very young know that they feel like a boy even if they're assigned female at birth.

 

Again should we be putting kindergarteners through gender reassignment surgery or giving them puberty blockers? No. Does everyone's gender identity or sexuality crystallize that young? Absolutely not. But I think we often run into situations like these where adults think they universally know best or that the experiences of cis / straight people are not just "the norm" from a statistical standpoint, but "normal" meaning the default or correct. The later is just not accurate.

 

So again, surgery specifically for minors, according to everything I've read, is rare and in extreme cases. I don't think it should be illegal.

[SuperSpreader]

32 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

It's fine to not know about or be informed about a topic, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

I don't form an opinion on this based on vibes, everything I've read suggests that when it comes to gender reassignment surgery for children it's:

 

1) Generally not recommended

2) Very rare

3) Only happens as a last resort in cases of severe dysphoria which may lead to things like suicide attempts or repeated self-harm

 

So in cases like this, it's not like my perspective is, "hey man, if it feels good, do it." And like I said, if it seemed like this was suddenly happening all the time, I might have a different notion. But that's not what is happening. If there's reasonable evidence to suggest that in certain cases, giving a minor access to this surgery is going to keep them from killing themselves... I don't think it should be against the law.

 

And let's also be clear that in cases like this, it's not like the state is advocating for the improvement of access to other gender affirming care, or increased mental health services, or education on trans issues, etc. No. They think trans people are gross so they act like this is a "won't SOMEONE think of the children" issue. Their solution would be to convince trans kids that they're not trans. This is just chum for the base.

 

 

As a cis, straight, white dude who is generally free of mental health issues, I can't really put myself in the shoes of someone who's trans or someone who has some kind of body dysmorphia. I've never had that experience of feeling out of place in my own skin. I don't even know if those are the right terms to use. So going through surgery does seem like "a lot" to me; I can't really imagine it.

 

I think it's also worth remembering that for many people, though certainly not all, sexuality or gender identity are known pretty early on. A girl I was friends with in kindergarten wanted to see what kissing was like so we did a little peck. If a boy I was friends with asked me to do the same thing, I wouldn't have. Obviously none of this was sexual at that age but at 6 I wouldn't have kissed a boy. So I don't think it should be surprising that some kids who are very young know that they feel like a boy even if they're assigned female at birth.

 

Again should we be putting kindergarteners through gender reassignment surgery or giving them puberty blockers? No. Does everyone's gender identity or sexuality crystallize that young? Absolutely not. But I think we often run into situations like these where adults think they universally know best or that the experiences of cis / straight people are not just "the norm" from a statistical standpoint, but "normal" meaning the default or correct. The later is just not accurate.

 

So again, surgery specifically for minors, according to everything I've read, is rare and in extreme cases. I don't think it should be illegal.

 

I think we're in agreement, I just personally don't get it, since.. it's not me. I know that's limiting and so I'm fine with it since I can't possibly understand. 

[stepee]

At least those life saving cosmetic surgeries like…breast implants will still be legal for minors to get. If they actually cared about any of this at all it would be a hell of a lot more general. But they don’t, and it’s a targeted attack against a certain type of individual. So you get a law for something that isn’t a problem, based out of hate, and that is designed to make life harder for people who are already at a very very difficult stage.

[best3444]

3 hours ago, SuperSpreader said:

I have a similar PERSONAL perspective as best, with the exception of needing to correct issues at birth. I personally believe surgeries should be post 18. 🤷‍♂️

 

That's all I'm saying. Even if surgeries are a low percentage it shouldn't be allowed to be done to minors. They can't think logically on their own. I've heard cases where a female had surgery then almost committed suicide after realizing she couldn't have kids after making such a life altering decision. I understand this is extremely rare but it should be up to the person alone not by doctors and parents. 

[stepee]

1 minute ago, best3444 said:

 

That's all I'm saying. Even if surgeries are a low percentage it shouldn't be allowed to be done to minors. They can't think logically on their own. I've heard cases where a female had surgery then almost committed suicide after realizing she couldn't have kids after making such a life altering decision. I understand this is extremely rare but it should be up to the person alone not by doctors and parents. 

 

Where are the laws pushing for literally every other kind of surgery that can be done on minors legally in any state in the US? You can get breast implants no problem, nobody is pushing for laws against that, interesting!

 

I wonder for every of the one person you heard of that almost committed suicide because they had surgery how many have committed suicide because they couldn’t. Looking at the numbers of trans teen suicide, it’s going to be quite a bit higher. 

 

This law isn’t about protecting teens, its intent is literally the exact opposite and that is why it should be criticized and not applauded.

[Spork3245]

The thing is… minors having gender affirming surgery is ridiculously rare. It’s only done in the most extreme circumstances and takes years of psychiatric diagnosis and trying basic things like just changing pronouns for years prior to surgery. Those “stories” people hear and cite are almost always made up when you actually try to look into it.

[CitizenVectron]

18 minutes ago, best3444 said:

 

I've heard cases where a female 

 

Look...the fact that you use the phrase "a female" tells me all I need to know about your views on women and gender.

[Jason]

59 minutes ago, best3444 said:

should be up to the person alone

 

how do they act on the decision without doctors

[Greatoneshere]

3 hours ago, best3444 said:

 

That's all I'm saying. Even if surgeries are a low percentage it shouldn't be allowed to be done to minors. They can't think logically on their own. I've heard cases where a female had surgery then almost committed suicide after realizing she couldn't have kids after making such a life altering decision. I understand this is extremely rare but it should be up to the person alone not by doctors and parents. 

 

"Heard". "A female". "I knew 2 trans people" (aka I have a black friend so I can't be racist argument). Kids can't think logically on their own, but doctors and parents can't help either (but only with this issue, nothing else in the kids' life? Got it). So kids can't think for themselves, but doctors and parents can't do anything for them either, or shouldn't. Got it.

 

The amount of ignorance here is somewhat mind blowing. I'm convinced you don't even really know what being trans means, how one goes about it, etc. You've just heard a bunch of right wing talking points and you're repeating them here. You "heard". Link me to a story where this is a real issue. That more harm is being done in these rare cases than good. You've "heard cases" so link us to the cases. I doubt you'll find anything legitimate but go ahead, show us the statistics that it's better to force kids to stay in their "wrong" bodies when they, their parents, and their doctor all agree they should go through with changing their gender but it's better they don't and suffer the consequences instead. I'll wait. All of us can link you to articles stating the exact opposite and we have done so many times in the past in other threads. So I'll wait.

 

While I'm waiting, try to also find links to articles explaining, if these cases are so rare (which they are), why it's such a huge talking point for the right wing. What's the worry here? Remember when gay people wanted to be able to get legally married and the right wing for years said where's the line then? People will start marrying their toasters and pets! To which I say . . . so what? But guess what, people didn't start doing that en masse either, and how convenient the right wing doesn't bring up that stupid talking point anymore. Hmmmmm. It's almost like they have no clue what they're talking about but just want to hate people different from them and turn that into law and policy, but without saying the quiet part out loud and you're falling for it hook, line, and sinker. It's women (take away their abortion). It's minorities (take away affirmative action). It's gay people (destroying the institution of marriage and turning people gay). It's trans people (people will then want to identity as a cat or a towel and how will sports and bathrooms work). Man, even typing those right wing talking points out sounds so stupid. Worrying about sports and bathrooms as most people are poor in this county and live in debt. Ah, the right wing, keeping their eye on the prize as always.

 

The arguments from the right wing, regardless of whatever group they have their sights set on at the time, never make sense. They just move on to the next susceptible group when they lose to the target they are currently on. Gay marriage is legal? Damn, we lost. Time to move on to trans people next!

[TheLeon]

I saw an episode of Law and Order SVU that I’ll never forget. There were these twin teenagers, a boy and a girl. The girl is being really aggressive and acting out. The late episode reveal is that this character had been born a boy, but after to a botched circumcision the baby had a surgery and was raised as a girl because a doctor said “it’s easier to dig a hole than build a pole”. 
 

Based solely on this sensitive and accurate depiction of this issue, I’m with best on this one. Y’all are nasty.

[CastlevaniaNut18]

3 hours ago, best3444 said:

 

That's all I'm saying. Even if surgeries are a low percentage it shouldn't be allowed to be done to minors. They can't think logically on their own. I've heard cases where a female had surgery then almost committed suicide after realizing she couldn't have kids after making such a life altering decision. I understand this is extremely rare but it should be up to the person alone not by doctors and parents. 

You just said they're not old enough to make a decision like this.

 

This is literally a decision between the patient and their doctor. Politicians should have no say. And that goes for ALL medical care.

[Jason]

The generous interpretation of what's happening is best's parents have Fox on all the time and it's re-chudding him.

[Kal-El814]

4 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

Look...the fact that you use the phrase "a female" tells me all I need to know about your views on women and gender.

 

In a situation like this I'm usually willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt when it comes to language. I don't know best all that well but I don't think he's trying to be hateful here or anything. It's not THAT long ago that, "I identify as X," was the most accepted language and that specific turn of phrase is generally out (which makes it being "the one joke" that chuds use a fairy reliable self-snitch), the way people call out their pronouns is different than the fairly recent past too, etc.

 

Again the larger issue here is similar to pro-birth people being obsessed with very late / third trimester abortions. Despite what they are more than willing to imply or occasionally lie about outright, those types abortions are exceedingly rare, almost always in the interest of the health of the mother, and are very often medically necessary or adjacent to that. Essentially nobody's going into Planned Parenthood 36 weeks into a healthy pregnancy and saying, "you know what? Nah. Gimme an abortion." Most people, including many pro-life people, don't believe that elective, late abortions should be legal, or that they should be more severely limited than ones that happen int he first trimester. Late abortions are brought up as a foot in the door to the discussion about what they really want; the elimination of all abortions at any time.

 

And it's the same thing here. There aren't tons of kids getting gender reassignment surgery. And let's also be clear that there's differentiation between top and bottom surgery. Last time I poked around at the numbers over a 3 year span, something like 750 top surgeries were done on minors based on gender dysphoria diagnoses. 750 seems like a lot until you realize that there are 40 million patients per year within the same age pool that number came from. When it came to bottom surgery the number is less than 60. In 2020 alone something like 3,200 girls between 13 - 19 got cosmetic breast enhancements. Close to 45,000 got cosmetic nose jobs. 

 

Will the number of kids undergoing some kind of medical intervention for trans related healthcare increase?In the short term, almost certainly yes.  This doesn't mean that being trans is "trendy" or whatever other bullshit chuds like to claim; these people always existed. They were just unaware of options, unable to access them, etc.

[Jwheel86]

I'll be the first to admit I don't know shit about this issue, I do think though that there needs to be proactive attempts at educating the public on these issues, otherwise the movement is going to get ran over. You're asking the public to massively change their perceptions what's normal, and if the debate devolves into "your woke vs you're a chud", the uneducated idiot like me is either going to go 'meh' with in difference or become closet anti trans. Either outcome is going to give law makers cover to chip away at like this by asking questions about sports, care, and bathrooms. In a perfect world most people would be okay banning late term abortions except for xyz, my objection to those bans is how do you cleanly allow those exceptions without calling the hospital lawyer at 2am, you can't. 

[Jason]

32 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said:

I'll be the first to admit I don't know shit about this issue, I do think though that there needs to be proactive attempts at educating the public on these issues, otherwise the movement is going to get ran over. You're asking the public to massively change their perceptions what's normal, and if the debate devolves into "your woke vs you're a chud", the uneducated idiot like me is either going to go 'meh' with in difference or become closet anti trans. Either outcome is going to give law makers cover to chip away at like this by asking questions about sports, care, and bathrooms. In a perfect world most people would be okay banning late term abortions except for xyz, my objection to those bans is how do you cleanly allow those exceptions without calling the hospital lawyer at 2am, you can't. 

 

The fact that Moms for Liberty got pretty much obliterated in school district elections last year makes it pretty clear that harassing kids is a severely losing issue. It just keeps coming up because the GOP has quadrupled down on the culture wars so you can't make it out of a GOP primary without promoting the absolute most bat-shit anti-trans positions. The one thing that would maybe get people's attention is the "MUTILATING KIDS" (gender reassignment surgery) angle but apparently average voters are smart enough to see around that one.

 

What was pretty amazing though was how many Dems were eager to show their ass on throwing trans kids under the bus because they thought that was how the political winds were blowing.

[Kal-El814]

1 hour ago, Jwheel86 said:

I'll be the first to admit I don't know shit about this issue, I do think though that there needs to be proactive attempts at educating the public on these issues, otherwise the movement is going to get ran over. You're asking the public to massively change their perceptions what's normal, and if the debate devolves into "your woke vs you're a chud", the uneducated idiot like me is either going to go 'meh' with in difference or become closet anti trans. Either outcome is going to give law makers cover to chip away at like this by asking questions about sports, care, and bathrooms. In a perfect world most people would be okay banning late term abortions except for xyz, my objection to those bans is how do you cleanly allow those exceptions without calling the hospital lawyer at 2am, you can't. 

 

I don't know that this is true. At the risk of painting with a broad brush, it's similar to the perspective that a lot of people had about gay issues / rights. Obviously gender reassignment surgery for kids is not the same as adult, same sex marriage; the comparison isn't perfect. But it wasn't smart politicking to support gay rights even for democrats until it was, and when that tipping point happened wasn't immediately obvious until it was happening or even had happened.

 

Also not to be grim... but kids getting killed by guns en masse has moved the needle slowly on gun laws. Things like gender affirming care are more easily manipulated at the state level since there are no national constitutional protections, but still.

 

Besides, lawmakers don't need cover to do this, as we're seeing here. I'm under no delusions that pro trans activism is going to bring a ton of democrats to the polls later this year. But I also think we DO have evidence that "protect kids from the mind virus and the thirsty scalpels of woke doctors" isn't a winning position for republicans, either. Maybe it has something to do with slippery slops arguments they've been making for years failing to come true? Maybe it's because shit like crying wolf with claims that schools are letting kids identify as cats and shit in litter boxes hasn't stuck? Maybe it's because these surgeries are so rare? I don't know.