DeWine signs executive order banning gender surgeries for minors.

[Spork3245]

6 hours ago, Jwheel86 said:

I'll be the first to admit I don't know shit about this issue, I do think though that there needs to be proactive attempts at educating the public on these issues, otherwise the movement is going to get ran over. You're asking the public to massively change their perceptions what's normal, and if the debate devolves into "your woke vs you're a chud", the uneducated idiot like me is either going to go 'meh' with in difference or become closet anti trans. Either outcome is going to give law makers cover to chip away at like this by asking questions about sports, care, and bathrooms. In a perfect world most people would be okay banning late term abortions except for xyz, my objection to those bans is how do you cleanly allow those exceptions without calling the hospital lawyer at 2am, you can't. 

I do believe that (and it’s not unique to this specific issue, but this issue certainly stands out) there’s this lack of basic education regularly put to the front for trans issues. It seems to often be “accept it or you’re a bigot. Don’t you dare ask questions” and that lack of good faith education being regularly and directly put to the forefront actively hurts the perception from the (as you put it) “average uneducated idiot”, which is like (at minimum) 75% of people (as they’re getting overwhelmed by the lies/talking points from one side).
I don’t think I was ever “anti-trans” but I definitely didn’t understand it and was confused as to why it would be okay for a kid to even start a transition when kids in general are, well, morons who don’t know anything about anything… that is until I started researching it on my own: and believe me, I had to wade through a LOT of fake BS talking points to get to the real information. Now, I know some on here will automatically think “yea, everyone just needs to educate themselves!” but… that’s really not a fair argument or point to expect that from the average person; the information and counterpoints to the disinformation should be shouted from the rooftops from news channels, activists, media, and politicians so it becomes easily accessible. It also doesn’t help that some feel as though it’s being “forced down their throats” because many newer TV shows and movies have a trans character who’s entire identity and character in said media is “I’m trans” because the writers are lazy POS (it’s not dissimilar to early representations of gay people on TV tbh, but it’s somehow worse because IMO trans is more complicated for the average person to understand). FFS, the god damn Saved by the Bell reboot had arguably the best representation of a trans person in TV media so far: an actual well written character that “happened to be trans” (that is to say: the entire character wasn’t based around being trans).

Sorry, went off on a slight tangent there. My point is that expecting people to just understand and accept it without any education on it, then just shout them down instead of attempting to give them the actual information, is pretty god damn stupid… not as stupid as believing the BS you hear on Fox News, but it’s close enough.

[finaljedi]

It’s harder to address people’s real concerns when bigots get to platform bigoted speech via “just asking questions”

[Spork3245]

1 hour ago, finaljedi said:

It’s harder to address people’s real concerns when bigots get to platform bigoted speech via “just asking questions”

You do it by silencing those bigots with facts, not by ignoring them. Then those people with real concerns get their answers simultaneously.

[SuperSpreader]

7 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

because many newer TV shows and movies have a trans character who’s entire identity and character in said media is “I’m trans” because the writers are lazy POS

 

I think it's also possible a lot of supporters also don't understand why they are supporting them other than feeling like the right thing to do. (Not saying it isn't, just agreeing with the lack of easily understandable/bite size digestible information.)

[best3444]

I love this place. I was referring to a female that changed to a male. "He" was absolutely devastated he chose to get surgery and change his sex because he wanted to have kids later in his life.  This was an adult thinking this, too.

 

Sorry @Greatoneshere I referred to them as a female in my other post. I meant no disrespect at all. But you really went after that mistake which is typical. 

 

I have nothing but love and respect for the LGBT community and you will never find a post of mine contradicting that. 

 

Yes, I was friends with two trans people who shared exactly my beliefs I shared here. I will always stand by my thoughts that you must be over 18 to be able to have a sex change. With the guidance of a doctor obviously but the choice is made by the individual alone. 

 

I understand we are talking about an extremely low percentage of people here who get surgeries. But to claim that I'm warped by Fox News @Jason is a complete joke. I don't watch that ever. I don't even visit my parents in their TV room anymore. 

 

I'd figure everyone here would trash me for my opinion but thankfully I don't give two fucks. I absolutely despise the political section of this place but sometimes I have to share my opinion on things. You guys are in a big circle jerk and it's fuckin hilarious. There is no conversation here at all. It's one side defending each other's post over and over again. Also, why didn't anyone attack @SuperSpreader for his opinion? Hmm...

 

Lead by Mr. Wade who is the strangest person I've ever interacted with. No disrespect. 

[stepee]

You know we are having one of “those” moments when you get a random potshot on Wade who hasn’t even posted in this thread lol

 

*backs slowly away

[SuperSpreader]

1 hour ago, best3444 said:

There is no conversation here at all. It's one side defending each other's post over and over again. Also, why didn't anyone attack @SuperSpreader for his opinion? Hmm...

I'm scary 

[SuperSpreader]

Interesting, related/unrelated. I remember in a college class (philosophy?) we heard a few interviews of women who transitioned to men and how there was a bit of culture shock/ongoing culture shock. For example, they weren't so aware that men do things like bodycheck/shoulder check each other when walking in crowds, things like that and how now they're a man but a lot of men see them as weak/small men who they could pick on. Obviously this is a small/anecdotal piece of info but I was always fascinated by this. I know pronouns are supposed to help people feel welcome who have transitioned but I also am curious about male/female cultural behaviors there are that they just haven't lived and what their experiences are with those. 

[SuperSpreader]

Here's another interesting and sort of dangerous (I'll probably get shit for this) observation to make. I know trans women are at high risk of violence by men, but women in general are more likely to be killed by their male partner than someone else. How much is this a reflection of being trans and how much is how men behave with their sexual partners? Look at what Hamas did to women and domestic violence issues and it seems like the problem overall is MEN unable to control their sexual/violent tendencies.

 

I wonder if there's a limit of progress that can me made until the "man issues" are confronted.

[stepee]

24 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

Here's another interesting and sort of dangerous (I'll probably get shit for this) observation to make. I know trans women are at high risk of violence by men, but women in general are more likely to be killed by their male partner than someone else. How much is this a reflection of being trans and how much is how men behave with their sexual partners? Look at what Hamas did to women and domestic violence issues and it seems like the problem overall is MEN unable to control their sexual/violent tendencies.

 

I wonder if there's a limit of progress that can me made until the "man issues" are confronted.

 

Seems like something you’d probably want to looks at the specifics of the statistics and come to a question a bit more specific I think. Is the high risk of violence by men for trans women mostly statistically from their partners?

 

edit I do agree men are just the worst tho

[Joe]

One thing I’ve always noticed with folks who seem to misunderstand trans issues is they always liken gender affirmation surgery to “cutting/chopping off a boy’s penis” because in their head the loss of manhood is the worst thing that could ever happen. It’s never about the opposite scenario.

[Joe]

On the other hand, I don’t think having the opinion that you should wait until 18 is that abhorrent. I disagree with it, sure, but it’s not an extreme opinion.

[stepee]

3 minutes ago, Joe said:

One thing I’ve always noticed with folks who seem to misunderstand trans issues is they always liken gender affirmation surgery to “cutting/chopping off a boy’s penis” because in their head the loss of manhood is the worst thing that could ever happen. It’s never about the opposite scenario.

 

For something that people are so passionate about that doesn’t affect them whatsoever they sure don’t do a lot of learnin

[stepee]

1 minute ago, Joe said:

On the other hand, I don’t think having the opinion that you should wait until 18 is that abhorrent. I disagree with it, sure, but it’s not an extreme opinion.

 

For me it’s more about not supporting laws that are designed to target minority groups rather than actually provide any sort of help. This isn’t done as protection of youth it is done as an attack against them, so supporting the law itself is wrong. Take the law back and make it more general if their real issue is cosmetic surgery below the age of 18.

[Greatoneshere]

5 hours ago, best3444 said:

Sorry @Greatoneshere I referred to them as a female in my other post. I meant no disrespect at all. But you really went after that mistake which is typical. 

 

Yes, it is typical to go after mistakes and correct them, usually.

[TUFKAK]

When people say real concerns I think it behooves us to follow that up with: what concerns? Why are they concerns? Because in my experience it always comes back to one thing only. This isn’t a concerning CT read, it’s ultimately what other people do in their life.

[CitizenVectron]

Best, I pointed out the use of "a female" not because of misgendering, but rather because it's rude to say "a female" instead of "a woman." Using an adjective in place of a noun when talking about human beings has a long history, in terms of degrading others. The use of "female" in place of "woman" is a dog whistle of right wing misogyny. You wouldn't call a person with a disability "a disabled," so don't do the same for women.

[SuperSpreader]

11 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

Best, I pointed out the use of "a female" not because of misgendering, but rather because it's rude to say "a female" instead of "a woman." Using an adjective in place of a noun when talking about human beings has a long history, in terms of degrading others. The use of "female" in place of "woman" is a dog whistle of right wing misogyny. You wouldn't call a person with a disability "a disabled," so don't do the same for women.

 

Canadians

[stepee]

16 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

Best, I pointed out the use of "a female" not because of misgendering, but rather because it's rude to say "a female" instead of "a woman." Using an adjective in place of a noun when talking about human beings has a long history, in terms of degrading others. The use of "female" in place of "woman" is a dog whistle of right wing misogyny. You wouldn't call a person with a disability "a disabled," so don't do the same for women.

 

 

 

[TheLeon]

I don’t what it is with females

but I’m not too good at that shit

[Nokra]

11 hours ago, best3444 said:

I love this place. I was referring to a female that changed to a male. "He" was absolutely devastated he chose to get surgery and change his sex because he wanted to have kids later in his life.  This was an adult thinking this, too.

 

Sorry @Greatoneshere I referred to them as a female in my other post. I meant no disrespect at all. But you really went after that mistake which is typical. 

 

I have nothing but love and respect for the LGBT community and you will never find a post of mine contradicting that. 

 

Yes, I was friends with two trans people who shared exactly my beliefs I shared here. I will always stand by my thoughts that you must be over 18 to be able to have a sex change. With the guidance of a doctor obviously but the choice is made by the individual alone. 

 

I understand we are talking about an extremely low percentage of people here who get surgeries. But to claim that I'm warped by Fox News @Jason is a complete joke. I don't watch that ever. I don't even visit my parents in their TV room anymore. 

 

I'd figure everyone here would trash me for my opinion but thankfully I don't give two fucks. I absolutely despise the political section of this place but sometimes I have to share my opinion on things. You guys are in a big circle jerk and it's fuckin hilarious. There is no conversation here at all. It's one side defending each other's post over and over again. Also, why didn't anyone attack @SuperSpreader for his opinion? Hmm...

 

Lead by Mr. Wade who is the strangest person I've ever interacted with. No disrespect. 

 

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but hopefully you also see the general problem with taking your experience with TWO trans people and applying it as a guiding principle to ALL trans people. The two people you know may have had some difficulties or regrets, but thousands of others have not. In fact, one metastudy of 27 other studies (source here) puts the number of people who regret it at less than 1%, of people who transition, and this meta-analysis includes adolescents. 

 

I don't think it's wrong to be concerned about people under 18 having major surgeries of any kind, but supporting a law to ban transitioning is, IMO, frankly to support the oppression of people for no good reason. Medical professionals agree it is a completely acceptable and supported procedure (including for adolescents), the number of people who regret it is tiny compared to the number of people whose lives it improves, and it has literally zero effect on you.  

[TUFKAK]

6 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

Best, I pointed out the use of "a female" not because of misgendering, but rather because it's rude to say "a female" instead of "a woman." Using an adjective in place of a noun when talking about human beings has a long history, in terms of degrading others. The use of "female" in place of "woman" is a dog whistle of right wing misogyny. You wouldn't call a person with a disability "a disabled," so don't do the same for women.

Eh, I’m willing to give people the benefit of the doubt if they use female over gender as I tend too as well, especially in a clinical setting where I’ve completely stopped using pronouns with all my patients. Only way I could train myself not to accidentally misgender someone.

[GoldenTongue]

11 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

Best, I pointed out the use of "a female" not because of misgendering, but rather because it's rude to say "a female" instead of "a woman." Using an adjective in place of a noun when talking about human beings has a long history, in terms of degrading others. The use of "female" in place of "woman" is a dog whistle of right wing misogyny. You wouldn't call a person with a disability "a disabled," so don't do the same for women.

Unless the person is being a deliberate ass, I try to offer feedback/corrections in such a way as to assume best intent.

 

Gender identity and its expression has evolved significantly within the past several years, and practical application of those changes often butts up against years or decades of programmed behavior.  If someone is making a best faith effort to recognize another's gender identity, I think it's easy to cross the line into arrogant self-righteousness when correcting them on a mistake.

 

My brother and sister-in-law's child, about 6-8 months ago, decided that they no longer identified as "he/him", but rather, "they/them".  The child's siblings have assimilated the change into their regular interactions with Gideon very quickly, whereas their parents still have somewhat regular slip-ups (which they self-correct as soon as they realize).