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~*Official Utterly Useless Old Woman, AOC, and UBI Thread*~

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6 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

They didn't dance around their answer, they were unequivocal, and just got elected. If anything they will harden their stance as they get closer to their own reelection

 

Assuming Democrats get sweeping victories in 2020? I think that would change their minds.

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8 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

The 60 vote threshold makes them relevant even as the minority party. They mean it.

 

7 minutes ago, Jose said:

Assuming Democrats get sweeping victories in 2020? I think that would change their minds.

 

For someone like Manchin, the 60 vote threshold gives them a lot of room to avoid having to go on the record with votes on a lot of things since the Republicans will block the bill before it ever gets to a vote.

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2 hours ago, Jose said:

 

Assuming Democrats get sweeping victories in 2020? I think that would change their minds.

Absolute best case is Dems pick up enough to get to 54 votes. Minus the three already saying no, that gives room for one more to go against the rules change after which it's a dead issue. Do you think a new senator from GA, or IA, or even CO is going to come out and make it so next time they're in the minority they're useless, given that the "moderate" wing has already staked out their position?

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On 11/10/2019 at 5:49 PM, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

This is only true if you severely restrict who and what labor is. It's also a framing that allows centrists and right wingers to cynically avoid talking about dealing with the issue at hand: climate change.

 

(This is also why the transition from carbon needs to have healthcare, good job replacements, and pension protection for not only those whose livelihood will be directly impacted by the transition, but others, too)

You're still going to be facing the same problem.  You can define labor however you want, but at the end of the day if your message to blue collar workers who either work in fossil fuel industries or in industries that depend heavily on the use of fossil fuels is, "We're going to close down your industries and you're all going to lose your jobs in the next few years, but we'll create new ones for you and beef up the welfare state so you'll be fine", it's simply not going to sell.  Just like Trump's "I'm going to slap huge tarriffs on your products and ruin your margins but I'll give you big subsidies so you'll be fine" won't sell to farmers.

 

There are certain demographics within the working class that the Green New Deal as formulated by pols like AOC or Warren, will simply always be toxic to.  If you want to pass it in the form they've envisioned, where you phase out fossil fuels in an extremely small amount of time, you'll have to pass it without the support of those demographics, and hope that the portions of labor working in non-fossil-fuel dependent industries like tech are enough to get it done.

 

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14 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

You're still going to be facing the same problem.  You can define labor however you want, but at the end of the day if your message to blue collar workers who either work in fossil fuel industries or in industries that depend heavily on the use of fossil fuels is, "We're going to close down your industries and you're all going to lose your jobs in the next few years, but we'll create new ones for you and beef up the welfare state so you'll be fine", it's simply not going to sell.  Just like Trump's "I'm going to slap huge tarriffs on your products and ruin your margins but I'll give you big subsidies so you'll be fine" won't sell to farmers.

 

There are certain demographics within the working class that the Green New Deal as formulated by pols like AOC or Warren, will simply always be toxic to.  If you want to pass it in the form they've envisioned, where you phase out fossil fuels in an extremely small amount of time, you'll have to pass it without the support of those demographics, and hope that the portions of labor working in non-fossil-fuel dependent industries like tech are enough to get it done.

 

I mean that's the point, to get people out of those industries, but also why the gnd, for example, is framed as a jobs program (that will get us off of fossil fuels)  but these voters are not a monolith and will need support in the transition. That said Being in a union is one of the largest factors in predicting support for something like a green New deal

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35 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

I mean that's the point, to get people out of those industries, but also why the gnd, for example, is framed as a jobs program (that will get us off of fossil fuels)  but these voters are not a monolith and will need support in the transition. That said Being in a union is one of the largest factors in predicting support for something like a green New deal

No, they’re not monolithic, but regardless of political affiliation, you’re always going to be hard-pressed to frame something that implies the intentional, planned obsolescence of someone’s job as a jobs program to them.  

 

Just like you’re always going to be hard-pressed to sell big tariffs on agricultural products to farmers by arguing it’s ultimately ‘helping them’ in the big picture by fighting unfair Chinese trade practices, even when the tariffs are paired with big subsidies that are supposed to dull the pain.  Farmers aren’t a monolithic group either, so you’ll probably get some support, but overall you’re fighting an uphill battle.

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Did you guys really believe the dems want to take powers away? they don't want to hobble themselves. It's not like they aren't as bad as republicans when it comes to overreach.. They are just quieter about it. 

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2 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

Yup, shit like this here just gets overlooked by everyone and it's so goddamn damaging. McConnell and Trump have really fucked the country.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/12/04/trump-nominee-who-is-anti-ivf-surrogacy-was-deemed-unqualified-she-just-got-confirmed/

 

Yeah, because we are too busy talking about Melania.

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I will agree Democrats have done a poor job of stressing the importance of the federal judiciary, but whenever Trump or Republicans say "Obama left us with so many openings," it wasn't due to a lack of focus or nominations. It was complete Senate stonewalling.

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1 minute ago, Jose said:

 

Yeah, because we are too busy talking about Melania.

You have a weird obsession with this.

 

1 minute ago, osxmatt said:

I will agree Democrats have done a poor job of stressing the importance of the federal judiciary, but whenever Trump says "Obama left me with so many openings," it wasn't due to a lack of focus or nominations. It was complete Senate stonewalling.

Yup. That's why fuck McConnell. His negative impacts will be felt for generations after he's dead.

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6 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

You have a weird obsession with this.

 

Yup. That's why fuck McConnell. His negative impacts will be felt for generations after he's dead.

 

It just sucks that we have a POTUS who is breaking records appointing judges and some people care more about going after trivial aspects of his presidency. Not referring to you btw.

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3 minutes ago, Jose said:

 

It just sucks that we have a POTUS who is breaking records appointing judges and some people care more about going after trivial aspects of his presidency. Not referring to you btw.


And what are we mere mortals supposed to do about it? Like, we know he’s appointing shit judges. 

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Just now, MarSolo said:

And what are we mere mortals supposed to do about it? Like, we know he’s appointing shit judges. 

 

The French would have been rioting ages ago.

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Koreans protested for months over their corrupt and lawless president.

 

rally.png

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_South_Korean_protests

 

Hundreds of thousands of Koreans gathered in downtown Seoul. I had middle school students who would go on the weekend. There were families there, moms and dads with kids. 

 

There needs to be more mass American protests.

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In addition to American apathy, Our politicians are also more beholden to donors (who, as a rule, don't want the boat rocked at all) than to average voters. Mass protest in this country is ignored at best because there's no threat to the ruling class in any capacity.

 

Another aspect is how tenuous our lives are here. Very little safety net, health insurance for yourself and your family tied to your employer, so one fuckup and you and your family could be in the poor house in no time with one bullshit arrest.

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Can't risk taking a day off from work to protest because you'll lose your health insurance if you get fired. 

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Amazon always knew exactly where they were going. This is a good win.

 

 

Also goes to show you how willing and eager many are to giving capital billions in public subsidies as quickly as possible

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