Such an Enlightened Religion

[TUFKAK]

Indonesia bans sex outside marriage as parliament passes sweeping new criminal code - CNN

AMP.CNN.COM

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Indonesian lawmakers unanimously passed a sweeping new criminal code on Tuesday that criminalizes sex outside marriage, as part of a tranche of changes that critics say...

Should’ve went last year like I planned 😂 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

This new law goes far deeper than those "moral" restrictions.

 

There are some very significant provisions that curtail political civil liberties.

 

Quote

 

Hamid said laws on insulting the country's leaders and unsanctioned protests will have a "chilling effect" on free speech.

 

"The reinstatement of provisions banning insults to the president and vice president, the sitting government as well as state institutions would further create a palpable chilling effect on freedom of speech and criminalize legitimate criticisms," he said.

 

 

[marioandsonic]

Don't give the GOP ideas

[Brick]

Well so much for going to Bali anytime soon. 

[Massdriver]

I always pictured Indonesia as being kind of reasonable, relatively speaking. I haven’t studied or been to the country. 

[CayceG]

2 hours ago, Massdriver said:

I always pictured Indonesia as being kind of reasonable, relatively speaking. I haven’t studied or been to the country. 

 

You should read "The Jakarta Method." This picture of yours will rapidly dissipate and you will further call for the death of America. 

 

EDIT: And to push back against the racist implication made by this thread title, Indonesia isn't the backwards and violent way it is because of Islam. (Hint: it's anti-Communism. Take a wild guess who started that one.)

[Nokra]

1 hour ago, CayceG said:

 

EDIT: And to push back against the racist implication made by this thread title, Indonesia isn't the backwards and violent way it is because of Islam. (Hint: it's anti-Communism. Take a wild guess who started that one.)

 

I didn't particularly like the thread title either (broad brush, etc.), and I know you know this, but Islam isn't a race.

[CayceG]

6 minutes ago, Nokra said:

I didn't particularly like the thread title either (broad brush, etc.), and I know you know this, but Islam isn't a race.

 

Technicality aside, you knew what I meant  

[TUFKAK]

I hate all religion guys lol

 

but considering apostasy is punishable now the attempt to dismiss the religious angle is disingenuous. Or was that missed? Shouldn’t communists want apostates? 😉
 

i was also directly referencing the new law, but have to love our impetus to tolerate intolerance I guess.

[Greatoneshere]

Ah yes, I'm sure this law will be followed by everyone, surely.

[TUFKAK]

To make this even clearer.

 

my best friend is gay, yes live in SF long enough you become a stereotype, we travel together at least once a year. We have to check the laws to see if her and her partner can be open abroad. Wonder why that is? History of colonialism too I’m sure. She’s open and proud here, when we were in Tunisia she was closeted and my partner. She wasn’t with her gf yet, we had to book king size beds so she’d stay on her side, do you know how annoying and limiting that was?

 

Or my two other friends, at least if they went to Bali they’d be married so they’d have that covered, but wonder how they’d interpret the homosexual nature of their union in Indonesia? Wait, no we don’t have to, illegal. At least not a capital crime like over a dozen other Muslim majority nations.

 

six Muslim nations punish apostasy with capital punishment. That number can go to ten depending on interpretation and application. 

 

90+%of the nations making homosexuality illegal are Muslim and Christian majorities. why are we ok calling out Christian nationalism but bend over backwards for this religion? Pretend it’s all due to external factors meanwhile we routinely mock chuds on this board for this bullshit. All of sudden nuance matters but with Christian’s here, “greatest threat to liberty.” hmmm
 

My trans ex was named Denise, wonder how she’d be treated in Jakarta? 

 

i despise both religions equally and this shit is personal to me. 

[Keyser_Soze]

Is this like the law in Alabama that you can't masturbate in your home?

[TUFKAK]

1 hour ago, Keyser_Soze said:

Is this like the law in Alabama that you can't masturbate in your home?

Must be due to anti-communism too.

[Joe]

Nice to see that Sam Harris has joined D1P 

[Nokra]

1 minute ago, Joe said:

Nice to see that Sam Harris has joined D1P 

 

I've been here all along!  

[TUFKAK]

30 minutes ago, Joe said:

Nice to see that Sam Harris has joined D1P 

I prefer Richard Dawkins personally considering I too studied evolutionary biology and had a relationship with a trans woman. 😉

 

proud and avowed anti-theist as only an apostate and former seminary student can be.

 

Call me Julian.

 

my best friend matters way more than their fairy tales.

[Fizzzzle]

Keep in mind that Indonesia is not an authoritarian state by any means. The logistics alone of trying to enforce laws like this in a massive archipelago that stretches over a larger area than the continental US make it kind of impossible.

 

That doesn't mean this doesn't suck, I'm just saying people kind of ignore the law most of the time there, anyway. Hell, they're a Muslim country that has a national beer which you can buy damn near anywhere. You can also get arak pretty much anywhere if you know where to look and that's technically illegal.

[TUFKAK]

5 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

Keep in mind that Indonesia is not an authoritarian state by any means. The logistics alone of trying to enforce laws like this in a massive archipelago that stretches over a larger area than the continental US make it kind of impossible.

 

That doesn't mean this doesn't suck, I'm just saying people kind of ignore the law most of the time there, anyway. Hell, they're a Muslim country that has a national beer which you can buy damn near anywhere. You can also get arak pretty much anywhere if you know where to look and that's technically illegal.

Than don’t say gay in Florida doesn’t matter cause not authoritarian either!

[Nokra]

11 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

Keep in mind that Indonesia is not an authoritarian state by any means. The logistics alone of trying to enforce laws like this in a massive archipelago that stretches over a larger area than the continental US make it kind of impossible.

 

That doesn't mean this doesn't suck, I'm just saying people kind of ignore the law most of the time there, anyway. Hell, they're a Muslim country that has a national beer which you can buy damn near anywhere. You can also get arak pretty much anywhere if you know where to look and that's technically illegal.

 

I'm just glad that Allah only looks at laws and not at behavior, right?  

[Fizzzzle]

Just now, TUFKAK said:

Than don’t say gay in Florida doesn’t matter cause not authoritarian either!

I'm just saying, Indonesia doesn't really have the ability to enforce laws like this. That's not to say it "doesnt matter," just that like 99% of people in Indonesia are going to ignore the law and in the overwhelming amount of cases, no one is going to do anything about it.

 

There's a pretty massive difference between the way laws work in Indonesia vs. the US.

[TUFKAK]

2 minutes ago, Fizzzzle said:

I'm just saying, Indonesia doesn't really have the ability to enforce laws like this. That's not to say it "doesnt matter," just that like 99% of people in Indonesia are going to ignore the law and in the overwhelming amount of cases, no one is going to do anything about it.

 

There's a pretty massive difference between the way laws work in Indonesia vs. the US.

The same kind’ve applies to the US too but the distinction is noted.

 

My big issue here is something a old friend articulated far better than I ever could.

 

Back during my first undergrad days I attended the most diverse university in the US, at the time may not be now I’m old and this was over a decade ago.

 

Me and two of my friends were discussing something very similar after a lecture in one of our anthropology classes, I forget which now honestly but I think it was the history of anthropological thought, upper Div class (when you study evolution with a focus on hominid evolution you take anthropology classes.)

 

The scene was my friend Thais, Shawn and me discussing cultural relevatism    vs universals and does such a thing actually exist. It was directly related to womens rights in the Muslim world.

 

me and Shawn were on the side that self expression, freedom of inquiry and individual agency were timeless, immutable, Thais was basically arguing that our views were ethnocentric and we don’t understand that culture enough to understand their perspective. 

 

enter my friend Omer, a Pakistani national, grew up super conservative Muslim. Aka an apostate now who just happened to walk by.

 

he told this liberal white girl to her face she was a racist. She accepts things out of the that region of the world “because they don’t know better” and are “too stupid to realize it” while you “attack white people for the same views.”

that she’d not be as accepting of the same views from a white Muslim. Paraphrasing here, you claim feminism but defend people who oppose everything you say you believe in.

 

 

 

[Nokra]

18 minutes ago, TUFKAK said:

The same kind’ve applies to the US too but the distinction is noted.

 

My big issue here is something a old friend articulated far better than I ever could.

 

Back during my first undergrad days I attended the most diverse university in the US, at the time may not be now I’m old and this was over a decade ago.

 

Me and two of my friends were discussing something very similar after a lecture in one of our anthropology classes, I forget which now honestly but I think it was the history of anthropological thought, upper Div class (when you study evolution with a focus on hominid evolution you take anthropology classes.)

 

The scene was my friend Thais, Shawn and me discussing cultural relevatism    vs universals and does such a thing actually exist. It was directly related to womens rights in the Muslim world.

 

me and Shawn were on the side that self expression, freedom of inquiry and individual agency were timeless, immutable, Thais was basically arguing that our views were ethnocentric and we don’t understand that culture enough to understand their perspective. 

 

enter my friend Omer, a Pakistani national, grew up super conservative Muslim. Aka an apostate now who just happened to walk by.

 

he told this liberal white girl to her face she was a racist. She accepts things out of the that region of the world “because they don’t know better” and are “too stupid to realize it” while you “attack white people for the same views.”

that she’d not be as accepting of the same views from a white Muslim. Paraphrasing here, you claim feminism but defend people who oppose everything you say you believe in.

 

 

 

It's kind of the classic "soft bigotry of low expectations", right? Expecting that people of a certain ethnicity, race, religion, etc. need to be held to a different standard because they couldn't handle it otherwise...

 

On the other hand, it seems really hard to me to argue that one knows better than someone else what they like/need or that your moral standard is universal without coming across as a bit of a sanctimonious prick.  

 

(to be clear, I'm not trying to say you're a sanctimonious prick )

[TUFKAK]

12 minutes ago, Nokra said:

It's kind of the classic "soft bigotry of low expectations", right? Expecting that people of a certain ethnicity, race, religion, etc. need to be held to a different standard because they couldn't handle it otherwise...

 

On the other hand, it seems really hard to me to argue that one knows better than someone else what they like/need or that your moral standard is universal without coming across as a bit of a sanctimonious prick.  

 

(to be clear, I'm not saying you're a sanctimonious prick )

I’ll own that lol 

 

My best friends right to love who she loves is universal. My right to love my fiancé is universal (let’s not forget there are forces out there would ban interracial marriage.) Say my love and family is valid in one cultural context but not another? Go fuck yourself.

 

you either believe in self-determination and human liberty or you don’t and anyone who opposes that isn’t something I need entertain. We have no common ground. I needn’t entertain white supremacists and their world view, why do I need to entertain those who have different religious backgrounds?

 

You know what another concept for criminalizing apostasy is? Opposition to free inquiry and freedom of thought. Should I accept that too? Is that just another acceptable form of cultural expression? And if it is. Then wtf are we fighting the chuds over here?

[Nokra]

25 minutes ago, TUFKAK said:

I’ll own that lol 

 

My best friends right to love who she loves is universal. My right to love my fiancé is universal (let’s not forget there are forces out there would ban interracial marriage.) Say my love and family is valid in one cultural context but not another? Go fuck yourself.

 

you either believe in self-determination and human liberty or you don’t and anyone who opposes that isn’t something I need entertain. We have no common ground. I needn’t entertain white supremacists and their world view, why do I need to entertain those who have different religious backgrounds?

 

You know what another concept for criminalizing apostasy is? Opposition to free inquiry and freedom of thought. Should I accept that too? Is that just another acceptable form of cultural expression? And if it is. Then wtf are we fighting the chuds over here?

 

Ha, I tried to edit my post before you replied to make it clearer that I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you or call you names but you were too fast to quote me.  

 

[TUFKAK]

11 minutes ago, Nokra said:

 

Ha, I tried to edit my post before you replied to make it clearer that I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you or call you names but you were too fast to quote me.  

 

Didn’t take it that way at all.

 

my academic background is cultural relevancy, now that I’m older, fuck that. My morals are better, they’re superior and I won’t pretend otherwise to score pretend liberal points.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

I will gladly admit that I am a moral/cultural relativist and that I largely reject the concept of universal moral standards.  I categorically reject the concept of the "soft bigotry of low expectations" as it tip-toes up to the line of being right-wing propaganda that wears a cloak of "intellectual respectability" that blissfully, deliberately ignores the context and conditions of...well, everything.

 

Personally, I have zero qualms about applying a so-called double standard to matters that involve a dichotomy between a "dominant" culture (for example, the "white", relatively liberal/relatively secular cultures of the "Global North") and a "subordinate" one (for example, the "non-white", relatively conservative/relatively religious cultures of the "Global South"). 

 

To me, the sheer economic/social/political, etc. power differential (and to say nothing of the history itself) effectively demands a relativistic approach to practically every aspect of human relations between them.  To do otherwise smacks of continuing the old historical patterns with their infinitely negative feedback loop.

 

In more instances than perhaps most people will care to admit, the much-maligned concepts of "relativism", "double standards", and "hypocrisy" are the correct approaches to complex issues that defy the application of "universal" standards (much like the notion of "free will", those universal standards don't actually exist anyway, but again much like "free will", let's entertain the notion that they do) as those relativistic approaches are the ones that -- as imperfect as they are -- at least attempt to mitigate the power imbalances and address the historical wrongs.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

One more point: let's not lose sight that the values and morals of the liberal/secular "Global North" are a complete and total anomaly among all others that exist in the world today and that there was nothing historically pre-ordained or pre-destined about their birth, development, flourishing (for some but certainly not for all), and survival.

 

Those values and morals were one successful Mongol invasion, resurgent bubonic plague, over-zealous inquisitor or any one of innumerable historical inflection points away from being strangled in their metaphorical cradle.  So let's not be too dogmatic about their universal relevance, shall we?

[CitizenVectron]

1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

One more point: let's not lose sight the values and morals of the liberal/secular "Global North" are a complete and total anomaly among all others that exist in the world today and that there was nothing historically pre-ordained or pre-destined about their birth, development, flourishing (for some but certainly not for all), and survival.

 

Those values and morals were one successful Mongol invasion, resurgent bubonic plague, over-zealous inquisitor, or any one of innumerable historical inflection points away from being strangled in their metaphorical cradle.  So let's not be too dogmatic about their universal relevance, shall we?

 

Don't forget the Hot Gates!*

 

*I mention it sarcastically as the right-wing loves to use that battle as an example of western civilization nearly falling to the evil brown people.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

Don't forget the Hot Gates!*

 

*I mention it sarcastically as the right-wing loves to use that battle as an example of western civilization nearly falling to the evil brown people.

 

That was absolutely one of the examples I had in mind in writing that!

 

I am unabashedly pro-Persian empire and would've relished the defeat of the proto-fascist Spartan state at their hands!

[thewhyteboar]

1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

That was absolutely one of the examples I had in mind in writing that!

 

I am unabashedly pro-Persian empire and would've relished the defeat of the proto-fascist Spartan state at their hands!

I always love to remind my Greek friend (whose dad's side comes from that region!) about how fascist Sparta was.

[Signifyin(g)Monkey]

7 hours ago, TUFKAK said:

I’ll own that lol 

 

My best friends right to love who she loves is universal. My right to love my fiancé is universal (let’s not forget there are forces out there would ban interracial marriage.) Say my love and family is valid in one cultural context but not another? Go fuck yourself.

 

you either believe in self-determination and human liberty or you don’t and anyone who opposes that isn’t something I need entertain. We have no common ground. I needn’t entertain white supremacists and their world view, why do I need to entertain those who have different religious backgrounds?

 

You know what another concept for criminalizing apostasy is? Opposition to free inquiry and freedom of thought. Should I accept that too? Is that just another acceptable form of cultural expression? And if it is. Then wtf are we fighting the chuds over here?

History complicates this picture, though, because the very idea of 'universal secular freedoms' of 'inquiry/thought/love/etc.' you are talking about did not arise ex nihilo; it came into being as the result of historically delimited struggles for political power in the West, and has its roots in the religious contexts of that period.

 

More specifically, it descends from the religious belief in a singular, universal god and universal criteria for sin and virtue, which, during the collapse of feudalism, was appropriated by the emergent bourgeoisie from the reigning ideology of the aristocratic and clerical class (who largely controlled, through the church, the definition of 'sin' and 'virtue') and reformulated as liberalism's secular-scientific ideology of 'universal political freedoms'.

 

This is often framed as the result of some autonomous 'Enlightenment', but if you look at the history of its development, you can see that it had a specific historical purpose, which was to rationalize the bourgeoisie's refusal to pay feudal rents and justify a new political regime centered around their industrial power. (which eventually made things like 'liberal democracy' possible)

 

While I agree it's dangerous to say that ethics is entirely relative to culture, it's also dangerous to overlook the historical roots of ethical frameworks and ideas, since while you may think the ethical principles in question are immutable, they are kept alive by historical power struggles that are arguably still ongoing in various forms, and whose outcome, as SFLU notes above, was never, and will never be predetermined.  And one should beware that what is true of banking and finance is true of political change--i.e., the very belief that some political/ethical system is 'immutable' and will 'inevitably triumph as a function of human progress' is usually what seeds its destabilization and collapse.  (See: the history of every empire, ever.) 

(Also see: the history of every financial crisis, ever.)

 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

I'm with Kab on this one. Both religions fucking suck and I don't feel like bending over backwards for them. Doesn't mean I hate Muslims or I'm afraid to share a plane with one.

[Massdriver]

This will be a reductive post since I don't have time to go into detail.

 

Ethics was alive apart from religion in Ancient Greek Philosophy. 

 

It is arguable that certain principles of ethics were present in every ancient civilization, even ones that developed completely apart from another and that we are aware of certain overlapping principles between each civilization. That just means the simple stuff was agreed upon, such as don't unjustly murder each other. When getting into the more specific issues such as freedom of thought, I would agree those ideals were not universally agreed upon and could result from other factors.  However, even if just a couple of principles appear to be universal and factual, it seems to make a case for some narrow form of universalism and realism. 

 

Relativism implies that there is no objectivity on which to challenge or criticize your own government or culture. Thus if your country's culture went fascist and everyone got on board with something that is morally wrong, it would become morally correct. I'm not on board with that. There are moral facts and they're independent of our culture.

[DPCyric]

On 12/7/2022 at 12:56 PM, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

I'm with Kab on this one. Both religions fucking suck and I don't feel like bending over backwards for them. Doesn't mean I hate Muslims or I'm afraid to share a plane with one.

 

I can't take out someone with a box cutter not worried about sharing a plane with anyone 😂

 

I was actually considering moving to Bali when I got my settlement because living outside the city is economically viable for me with the small amount of money I make online. However with bullshit laws like this I'm sure I can find someplace better.

[unogueen]

For moral relativity, there's at least 1billion + suffering from structural deficiencies that do against promoting the universal constants. There's also the historical inertia of such tumult to cause the current term..