The damming of the Nile and an argument for global governance

[Fizzzzle]

As many of you know, Ethiopia and Egypt have been involved in a dispute for the last decade regarding a dam on the Nile river that Ethiopia has been building near the border with Sudan.

 

The dam would provide a vast source of power and water for Ethiopia, potentially improving the lives for millions of their impoverished inhabitants. However, Egypt, which is downstream, could potentially see massively damaging effects from having its only fresh water source restricted. They are legitimately worried about starving.

 

It's important to note that Egypt itself has a dam on the Nile river, at Aswan. No one cares because no one is downstream from them. The damn in Ethiopia could have (temporary) damaging effects on Egypt's dam at Aswan.

 

Should Ethiopia be allowed to do whatever they please with their land, even if it affects people in other countries? It IS their land. You can see the same argument with the world trying to tell Brazil what to do with the Amazon rainforest. It is their land, what right does the rest of the world have to tell them what to do with it? Even if affects the rest of the world.

 

To that I say, let's scale this down a bit. I'm assuming wherever you live there are local sound ordnance laws. In my city, it's 8am-10pm. You can't make disruptive noises outside of that time frame, because while you are still in your own home, making a lot of noise late at night starts to affect other people. I can get fined by blasting the hit Poison classic single "Nothin' but a Good Time" at 110 decibels at 3am, regardless of how good that song is. In my opinion, the same should be applied to countries as a general rule. Like, if instead of building a dam, Ethiopia just wanted to poison the water at the border by dumping all of their excess classic Poison records into the water right near the border, that would straight up be grounds for war.

 

Just like with Brazil and the Amazon, people should be saying "guys, that's our fucking breathing air you're fucking with."

 

So, what's the solution? People in Ethiopia just have to starve and can't industrialize? "Sorry, there are people down stream from you that matter more, they already have a dam." No. Dam-building aside (we really shouldn't be building any more dams, they're not good for the environment, but that's a different topic), we need to better pool our resources. Let Ethiopia build the dam, and then share the resources they get from it with their neighbors. If it's determined that the dam would be a net negative for everyone on the whole, then don't build it. BUT, that means that Egypt has to start putting their resources into the pool, as well. They don't get to be the only one to reap any benefits from a dam on the Nile.

 

And that, naturally, leads us to globalization. We shouldn't keep letting countries act like they live on a 60 acre farm in the middle of nowhere, where they're free to play "Nothin' but a Good Time" as loud as they want. They don't. We all live in the city, and cities have fucking noise ordnances.

 

I think the UN needs to eventually become the world government. It kind of pretends to be sometimes, but ultimately doesn't have any authority as long as one of the big 5 countries disagrees with something, and those big 5 countries treat it like a game.

[Ghost_MH]

Ethiopia should get the dam and Egypt get the extra aid to offset the damages the other dam might cause. Landlocked nations have a hard enough time getting things like water without the help of neighboring countries. It's not like we can just tell Ethiopia to invest in desalination.

 

I don't think we need a world government, but Africa could sure use a sort of EU-type of presence. Even without it, allocating aid to the countries in need should be about as much as the UN does. We can't run a country without putting flappy haired idiots like Trump and Johnson in charge, how would a UN with actual governing responsibilities look like? Is rather not know.

[Fizzzzle]

1 hour ago, Ghost_MH said:

Ethiopia should get the dam and Egypt get the extra aid to offset the damages the other dam might cause. Landlocked nations have a hard enough time getting things like water without the help of neighboring countries. It's not like we can just tell Ethiopia to invest in desalination.

 

I don't think we need a world government, but Africa could sure use a sort of EU-type of presence. Even without it, allocating aid to the countries in need should be about as much as the UN does. We can't run a country without putting flappy haired idiots like Trump and Johnson in charge, how would a UN with actual governing responsibilities look like? Is rather not know.

I don't think a global government fits a "one leader" model. I think something closer to the EU would be beneficial, just for the whole planet. Hell, I wonder what the ramifications would be if the whole world started using the same currency.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

2 hours ago, Fizzzzle said:

Hell, I wonder what the ramifications would be if the whole world started using the same currency.

 

The experience of the "poorer" European nations with the euro tells me that would be a very, very bad idea.

 

No nation should ever give up its monetary policy levers which is exactly what would happen when it surrenders its own sovereign currency.

[Fizzzzle]

17 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

The experience of the "poorer" European nations with the euro tells me that would be a very, very bad idea.

 

No nation should ever give up its monetary policy levers which is exactly what would happen when it surrenders its own sovereign currency.

I'm in the dark, what happened to them?

[mclumber1]

Dam and drain the Mediterranean!

 

 

Atlantropa - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

[Fizzzzle]

42 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

Dam and drain the Mediterranean!

 

 

Atlantropa - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

I've read that the Atlantropa project would have basically turned all of southern Europe and the African coast into an inhospitable desert

[Air_Delivery]

1 hour ago, Fizzzzle said:

I'm in the dark, what happened to them?

It is much harder to deal with debt when you can't just print money. Greece got absolutely fucked by the EU's (Germany) forced austerity. 

[Fizzzzle]

3 minutes ago, Air_Delivery said:

It is much harder to deal with debt when you can't just print money. Greece got absolutely fucked by the EU's (Germany) forced austerity. 

That would be another argument for a stronger global government, then.

 

It's similar to the saying "when you owe the bank $100, it's your problem. When you owe the bank a hundred million dollars, that's the bank's problem. If you owe the bank a billion dollars, that's the government's problem." Like, if America's economy fails, or if China's economy fails, the whole world suffers. If Greece's economy fails... eh, that's just Greece's problem (or in this particular case, Ethiopia or Brazil's economy fails). And then we act surprised when they do shit that destroys the world.

[Anathema-]

Have they tried cutting their taxes? 

[CitizenVectron]

9 hours ago, Fizzzzle said:

I've read that the Atlantropa project would have basically turned all of southern Europe and the African coast into an inhospitable desert

 

It wouldn't help that the entire seabed is filled with salt, making it impossible to grow anything of value.

[Zaku3]

I'm down for an Earth Federation.

[BloodyHell]

5 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

It wouldn't help that the entire seabed is filled with salt, making it impossible to grow anything of value.

But salt is delicious and they can put it on their steak!

-Fox News, probably.

 

Im certainly against a world government. Countries should have self determination, and comparing the world to a city is disingenuous.

[Mr.Vic20]

Its sooner or later, but someday there will be a unified Earth government. The question is how will it come about. If history is a guide, poorly and with much death and inequality. 

[Jason]

16 hours ago, mclumber1 said:

Dam and drain the Mediterranean!

 

 

Atlantropa - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

 

Proposed by a German architect huh? It was obviously a ploy to make it easier to loot ancient sunken treasures.

[Fizzzzle]

1 hour ago, BloodyHell said:

But salt is delicious and they can put it on their steak!

-Fox News, probably.

 

Im certainly against a world government. Countries should have self determination, and comparing the world to a city is disingenuous.

I don't see how. At what point does the self determination of one country become exerting their will on others, who also allegedly have that same power of self determination. If Brazil wants to burn the Amazon, it would fuck with the climate of not just Brazil, but the entire South American continent, and potentially the entire planet. Should Brazil just be free to do it because of self determination?

 

That's why I think living in a city is an apt comparison. You are free to do whatever you want in your apartment, but once you start to do things that affect me living in mine, higher authorities get involved. At the very least, some kind of compromise has to be struck, because right now (for example) Ethiopia has no incentive to give much a shit about the effects of a dam on Egypt or Sudan. It could take 5 to 15 years to fill the reservoir to the point where water flow could potentially go back to normal-ish.

[BloodyHell]

3 hours ago, Fizzzzle said:

I don't see how. At what point does the self determination of one country become exerting their will on others, who also allegedly have that same power of self determination. If Brazil wants to burn the Amazon, it would fuck with the climate of not just Brazil, but the entire South American continent, and potentially the entire planet. Should Brazil just be free to do it because of self determination?

 

That's why I think living in a city is an apt comparison. You are free to do whatever you want in your apartment, but once you start to do things that affect me living in mine, higher authorities get involved. At the very least, some kind of compromise has to be struck, because right now (for example) Ethiopia has no incentive to give much a shit about the effects of a dam on Egypt or Sudan. It could take 5 to 15 years to fill the reservoir to the point where water flow could potentially go back to normal-ish.

I just disagree. Let those Countries determine their own path. The UN should be there to help struggling Countries, but never to rule them. 

A one world government causes as many problems as it solves. And it doesn't matter, because most Countries will never agree to it, nor should they.

 

And no, your analogy doesn't hold water. Your city has jurisdiction over your apartment, but they don't have jurisdiction over other cities. The world is not a city, and billions would take offense at what you're suggesting. 

You think China, Russia, Iran, Israel, etc would agree to that? You want to force them and cause a war.

 

Your idea is rooted in an idealism that just doesn't exist. 

 

In fact, if anything, I think most larger countries should be split into smaller ones that more closely relate to the people who live in those areas.

 

Also, the USA has has exerted its will on and destroyed far more countries than Ethiopia building a dam ever will.

[Fizzzzle]

Of course I don't think it's actually *going* to happen any time soon. My argument is just that it seems primitive, as the world keeps globalizing whether people want it to or not, to let countries keep acting like they live in a bubble.

[SilentWorld]

I feel like this is sort of based on a false premise. International treaties covering water rights exist and while I don't know of the specific dam you're discussing, I would be very, very surprised if there isn't a large amount of international negotiation involved in its construction. Like I really doubt that Ethiopia is just going to stop the flow of the Nile for a couple years while the dam fills up and tell Egypt to deal with it. 

 

The UN isn't useless just because it can't immediately force any country it wants to immediately bend the knee. 

[Fizzzzle]

1 minute ago, SilentWorld said:

I feel like this is sort of based on a false premise. International treaties covering water rights exist and while I don't know of the specific dam you're discussing, I would be very, very surprised if there isn't a large amount of international negotiation involved in its construction. Like I really doubt that Ethiopia is just going to stop the flow of the Nile for a couple years while the dam fills up and tell Egypt to deal with it. 

 

The UN isn't useless just because it can't immediately force any country it wants to immediately bend the knee. 

1) they're building the dam whether Egypt wants it or not (I'm not sure why Sudan isn't really a part of it), the negotiations are more about how fast Ethiopia fills up the reservoir. The faster they fill up the reservoir, the more it fucks over Egypt (and Sudan, again, not really sure why I don't see too much about them in this whole thing)

 

2) I'm not sayin the UN isn't useless, I'm saying they should be useful.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Updating this thread with a video that further explains the Nile River dam situation between Egypt and Ethiopia:

 

 

[Guest]

The existence of countries is part of how we have truly distinct cultures, because governance is a major part of systematizing culture…for good and for bad.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

@Fizzzzle - thought you might be interested in an update to this situation as Ethiopia claims that it has finished filling the dam:

 

Ethiopia says it has filled the reservoir on its highly controversial Blue Nile megadam project | CNN

WWW.CNN.COM

---

Ethiopia announced on Sunday it had completed the fourth and final phase of filling a reservoir for its huge and controversial hydroelectric power plant on the Blue Nile, a project that Egypt and Sudan have long opposed.

 

Quote

 

Ethiopia announced on Sunday it had completed the fourth and final phase of filling a reservoir for its huge and controversial hydroelectric power plant on the Blue Nile, a project that Egypt and Sudan have long opposed.

 

Construction of the $4 billion Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam (GERD) began in 2011 and Ethiopia sees the project as crucial to powering its economic development.

Egypt and Sudan, however, consider the project a serious threat to their vital water supplies.

 

“Congratulations to all on the fourth filling of the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam. Our national perseverance against all odds has delivered,” Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed’s office wrote on the social media platform X, formerly known as Twitter, on Sunday.

 

 

[ort]

[Fizzzzle]

So, they filled up this reservoir REALLY fast. Which almost certainly will put Egypt in a water shortage for a good while. Egypt is already facing water scarcity Climate change is the main cause, but filling the reservoir doesn't help.

 

Granted, in the long run, Ethiopia filling the reservoir faster means that water flow will (hopefully) restore to regular levels faster, but it might be a rough year or two. And Egypt already isn't doing great on that front. 

[DPCyric]

On 2/11/2021 at 5:56 PM, Fizzzzle said:

As many of you know, Ethiopia and Egypt have been involved in a dispute for the last decade regarding a dam on the Nile river that Ethiopia has been building near the border with Sudan.

 

The dam would provide a vast source of power and water for Ethiopia, potentially improving the lives for millions of their impoverished inhabitants. However, Egypt, which is downstream, could potentially see massively damaging effects from having its only fresh water source restricted. They are legitimately worried about starving.

 

It's important to note that Egypt itself has a dam on the Nile river, at Aswan. No one cares because no one is downstream from them. The damn in Ethiopia could have (temporary) damaging effects on Egypt's dam at Aswan.

 

Should Ethiopia be allowed to do whatever they please with their land, even if it affects people in other countries? It IS their land. You can see the same argument with the world trying to tell Brazil what to do with the Amazon rainforest. It is their land, what right does the rest of the world have to tell them what to do with it? Even if affects the rest of the world.

 

To that I say, let's scale this down a bit. I'm assuming wherever you live there are local sound ordnance laws. In my city, it's 8am-10pm. You can't make disruptive noises outside of that time frame, because while you are still in your own home, making a lot of noise late at night starts to affect other people. I can get fined by blasting the hit Poison classic single "Nothin' but a Good Time" at 110 decibels at 3am, regardless of how good that song is. In my opinion, the same should be applied to countries as a general rule. Like, if instead of building a dam, Ethiopia just wanted to poison the water at the border by dumping all of their excess classic Poison records into the water right near the border, that would straight up be grounds for war.

 

Just like with Brazil and the Amazon, people should be saying "guys, that's our fucking breathing air you're fucking with."

 

So, what's the solution? People in Ethiopia just have to starve and can't industrialize? "Sorry, there are people down stream from you that matter more, they already have a dam." No. Dam-building aside (we really shouldn't be building any more dams, they're not good for the environment, but that's a different topic), we need to better pool our resources. Let Ethiopia build the dam, and then share the resources they get from it with their neighbors. If it's determined that the dam would be a net negative for everyone on the whole, then don't build it. BUT, that means that Egypt has to start putting their resources into the pool, as well. They don't get to be the only one to reap any benefits from a dam on the Nile.

 

And that, naturally, leads us to globalization. We shouldn't keep letting countries act like they live on a 60 acre farm in the middle of nowhere, where they're free to play "Nothin' but a Good Time" as loud as they want. They don't. We all live in the city, and cities have fucking noise ordnances.

 

I think the UN needs to eventually become the world government. It kind of pretends to be sometimes, but ultimately doesn't have any authority as long as one of the big 5 countries disagrees with something, and those big 5 countries treat it like a game.

 

I have spent a lot of time working night shift so you blasting that single in the middle of the day is still a problem so everything you just said is invalid 

[Fizzzzle]

56 minutes ago, DPCyric said:

 

I have spent a lot of time working night shift so you blasting that single in the middle of the day is still a problem so everything you just said is invalid 

I might suggest that you...

 

.. Look for nothing...

 

 

 

 

.... But...

 

 

 

.... a good time

[unogueen]

The world is hardly ready for global governance. That would take an open pact to decelerate from the leading economies and conscious austerity towards corporate entities. How many of you are ready to do without?

[Kal-El814]

22 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

@Fizzzzle - thought you might be interested in an update to this situation as Ethiopia claims that it has finished filling the dam:

 

Ethiopia says it has filled the reservoir on its highly controversial Blue Nile megadam project | CNN

WWW.CNN.COM

---

Ethiopia announced on Sunday it had completed the fourth and final phase of filling a reservoir for its huge and controversial hydroelectric power plant on the Blue Nile, a project that Egypt and Sudan have long opposed.

 

 

 

Calling a dam GERD... why would you do that.