Greatoneshere Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 14 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: This isn't what aoc said I'm not suggesting that was her implication. Progressive seats were kept, that's a fact. Yes, I understand it's not just because they were progressive, purple districts went redder, etc. I'm not saying AOC said go left or perish (where did I say that?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Joe said: Oh I agree. Her statement was more nuanced than GOH made it out to be. I just though the particular point of progressives holding their seats wasn't meaningful on its own. I think it's meaningful, and that's the only thing I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to speak for AOC or be reductive in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Just now, Greatoneshere said: I think it's meaningful, and that's the only thing I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to speak for AOC or be reductive in any way. How is it meaningful if you don't actually take a look at the particular seats that were lost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, Joe said: How is it meaningful if you don't actually take a look at the particular seats that were lost? Meaningful that in blue areas, they wanted to go bluer or stick with their progressive candidate, which means if we can just change the media messaging on progressive policies, it can turn purple districts blue and red districts perhaps purple. My thought it was a lack of strong progressivism in the messaging during the campaign (since Biden/Harris aren't progressive) that turned purple districts more red. Populism and rhetoric always win, and Trump's better at that than Biden. Populism works, I just want it to come from the left. Milquetoast, centrist politicians only inspire boredom and apathy and disinterest, almost a resentment that makes people actually vote for anything else (in this case, Trump). It's not like I don't think about these things man. You keep trying to say things like: "we're better than them, right?" Yeah, we are. Our demonization of them remains harsh and verbal, whilst their demonization of us involves plotting to kidnap, jail, or kill us. So there's no both sides to that false equivalency. You want us to go high when they go low. That didn't work. You want to keep trying the same tactics we've been trying for decades as the MAGA group goes more all in on their crazy? And you never answered my question about what it would it take for you to start demonizing them. What's your personal red line? Apparently we can demonize Nazis (not all Germans), we can demonize extremist Muslim terrorist groups (not all Muslims), but we can't demonize Trump supporters of 2020/MAGA. Let's not forget, Trump supporters helped kill 230,000+ Americans and counting with their beliefs and spread of false Covid information, their support throughout Donald Trump's presidency, and their voting for him again in 2020. That means they are bad people, right? By any definition? It's like when the Civil War ended and Grant became President, people could have theoretically come out and say: "don't demonize Confederate supporters". Does it make sense then? No, they should have been demonized. And they should again now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 19 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: Meaningful that in blue areas, they wanted to go bluer or stick with their progressive candidate, which means if we can just change the media messaging on progressive policies, it can turn purple districts blue and red districts perhaps purple. My thought it was a lack of strong progressivism in the messaging during the campaign (since Biden/Harris aren't progressive) that turned purple districts more red. Populism and rhetoric always win, and Trump's better at that than Biden. Populism works, I just want it to come from the left. Milquetoast, centrist politicians only inspire boredom and apathy and disinterest, almost a resentment that makes people actually vote for anything else (in this case, Trump). It's not like I don't think about these things man. You keep trying to say things like: "we're better than them, right?" Yeah, we are. Our demonization of them remains harsh and verbal, whilst their demonization of us involves plotting to kidnap, jail, or kill us. So there's no both sides to that false equivalency. You want us to go high when they go low. That didn't work. You want to keep trying the same tactics we've been trying for decades as the MAGA group goes more all in on their crazy? And you never answered my question about what it would it take for you to start demonizing them. What's your personal red line? Apparently we can demonize Nazis (not all Germans), we can demonize extremist Muslim terrorist groups (not all Muslims), but we can't demonize Trump supporters of 2020/MAGA. Let's not forget, Trump supporters helped kill 230,000+ Americans and counting with their beliefs and spread of false Covid information, their support throughout Donald Trump's presidency, and their voting for him again in 2020. That means they are bad people, right? By any definition? It's like when the Civil War ended and Grant became President, people could have theoretically come out and say: "don't demonize Confederate supporters". Does it make sense then? No, they should have been demonized. And they should again now. I think you're conflating saying don't demonize Trump supporters with don't demonize Trump or Trumpism. Because Trump and Trumpism can definitely go fuck itself and I'm not sure anyone in this thread disagrees with you there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Fuck any conservatives going along with this stolen election shit. That’s the “Trumpism” shit. Even my brother isn’t saying the election was stolen and he’s had every bad opinion in the fucking book the last 4 years. He’s accepted that Biden won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 23 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: I'm not suggesting that was her implication. Progressive seats were kept, that's a fact. Yes, I understand it's not just because they were progressive, purple districts went redder, etc. I'm not saying AOC said go left or perish (where did I say that?). Progressive seats were kept, and lost, same as moderates, as challengers or incumbents. And the top of the ticket was not by any means progressive or left for that matter. This is all to push back against blame that somehow it was progressives who cost the party seats instead of looking in the mirror at campaigns or the greater organization. Dems need to look closer at why the policies they support are popular ($15 min wage, expanded medicaid, literally anything to do with marijuana, etc) even in deep red states and far outperform their candidates. I've got one of these swingy districts about a quarter mile away from me, and I'm in the media market for it. The only thing the Dem (who won) said in her ads was that she was independent and bipartisan and will "protect" your healthcare, and that her opponent had a singularly bad vote on health care for autistic kids. Like yeah it's a fucking terrible vote but honestly how many people have an autistic child? Ok great he's another goper with some terrible views but what else is new? That's baked in at this point! And telling people that the Republican is terrible isn't going to get people to vote for you all the time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 21 minutes ago, Joe said: I think you're conflating saying don't demonize Trump supporters with don't demonize Trump or Trumpism. Because Trump and Trumpism can definitely go fuck itself and I'm not sure anyone in this thread disagrees with you there. But, what about the tea party before that? The same people, and sorts of people, believed in that before Trumpism. And what about QAnon? The same people now believe in all of that. It's the people creating the ideologies, and then espousing them, believing in them, etc. Nazi supporters are nazis themselves by implication, support, voting for them, etc. No? 5 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Progressive seats were kept, and lost, same as moderates, as challengers or incumbents. And the top of the ticket was not by any means progressive or left for that matter. This is all to push back against blame that somehow it was progressives who cost the party seats instead of looking in the mirror at campaigns or the greater organization. Dems need to look closer at why the policies they support are popular ($15 min wage, expanded medicaid, literally anything to do with marijuana, etc) even in deep red states and far outperform their candidates. I've got one of these swingy districts about a quarter mile away from me, and I'm in the media market for it. The only thing the Dem (who won) said in her ads was that she was independent and bipartisan and will "protect" your healthcare, and that her opponent had a singularly bad vote on health care for autistic kids. Like yeah it's a fucking terrible vote but honestly how many people have an autistic child? Ok great he's another goper with some terrible views but what else is new? That's baked in at this point! And telling people that the Republican is terrible isn't going to get people to vote for you all the time! I agree with you - I didn't mean to suggest anything was progressives fault, as I don't think so. I'm not sure what you thought I was originally arguing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said: But, what about the tea party before that? The same people, and sorts of people, believed in that before Trumpism. And what about QAnon? The same people now believe in all of that. It's the people creating the ideologies, and then espousing them, believing in them, etc. Nazi supporters are nazis themselves by implication, support, voting for them, etc. No? I agree with you - I didn't mean to suggest anything was progressives fault, as I don't think so. I'm not sure what you thought I was originally arguing? Were all Nazi supporters demonized? Or just the actual officials in the Nazi party? I know for sure members of the Confederacy were not demonized. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Joe said: Were all Nazi supporters demonized? Or just the actual officials in the Nazi party? I know for sure members of the Confederacy were not demonized. And look how well that worked out for us! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 28 minutes ago, Jason said: And look how well that worked out for us! Different situation though as not even the Confederate officials faced any scorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 39 minutes ago, Joe said: Were all Nazi supporters demonized? Or just the actual officials in the Nazi party? I know for sure members of the Confederacy were not demonized. I'm genuinely not sure whether they were or not. My question is don't you think Nazi supporters should have been demonized? That Confederate supporters should have been? Would you not demonize Nazi supporters? Is my question, not rhetorical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 4 hours ago, Greatoneshere said: I don't know what you mean? I addressed the 5% thing - that doesn't mean we need them in the sense we have to "talk to them" or stop demonizing them. We can demonize them and still get the 5%, is what I'm saying. That you don't need to concern yourself with that 40% of voters who never had an issue with Trump, aka the Trump supporter, so spending time and effort attacking them is fruitless other than it makes you feel a certain way. The people who vote in some elections, but not all, and for any number of reasons that can be persuaded of your policy prefs aren't the Trump supporters. It's a small slice of the electorate that you do need to persuade, so why choose the tactic of attacking all people who aren't in lock step with your policy prefs. Real question: have you ever needed to persuade somebody of something and been successful at it? I don't even mean just within the realm of politics. I can't think of a single scenario in which your now preferred method of dealing with opposing views works! There will always be a significant portion of the whole who are lost to your cause, so ignore them and focus on the people who can be allied to your cause. That is a strategy that actually wins. The problem though is that such a bond is tenuous and not built for the long haul, but you don't need it to be. You just need to build a coalition to get you to the next goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Here's a damning thread, related to aocs comments more in the link Absolutely embarrassing. And this was 2018! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Replies to those tweets brought me back to this article from 2018 The Battle of Woodstock WWW.ROLLINGSTONE.COM What does it mean when the biggest threat to upstart Democrats is the national Democratic Party? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Stop demonizing @Greatoneshere! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 If we ditch anything maybe we should ditch pelosi, based on these nrcc ads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Another underrated point: voters seem to want gridlock, and force bipartisanship upon washington when in reality this is really fucking stupid. So therefore it's as american as apple pie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Another underrated point: voters seem to want gridlock, and force bipartisanship upon washington when in reality this is really fucking stupid. So therefore it's as american as apple pie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaku3 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Just wanted to let everyone know I am a terrible human being. Saw my first batch of Trump supporter pics after Biden was declared the winner and their suffering sustains me. So good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ort Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 My FB feed is full of Trumpers complaining about how mean liberals are and how all decency is gone from politics. It would be hilarious if it also wasn't so fucking frightening. We won't be able to reason or bargain with these people. They are all lost souls. They're done. No one that stupid, ignorant and oblivious can contribute anything useful to any conversation about anything. EVER. If they aren't able to see it, I question their ability to understand anything. What's the point of trying to find common ground with someone that lacking in self awareness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Vic20 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Easy now, it's worth noting that people use the internet as their toilet. I'm not excusing them, just trying to right size the madness. The best thing we can do is just keep our eye on the prize, and the prize is control of the senate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ort Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 I mean, you're not wrong. And for the record, I at least have enough self-awareness to know that me complaining about other people complaining about all decency being gone from politics is pretty rich considering the sort of ranting and raving I do on here... but my posts on here are really completely removed from how I conduct myself in person. It a release for me. Maybe it is for other people as well. I don't know. I get so tired of having to be so understanding and diplomatic to the people around me, that when I have no real filter and anonymity, I am able to just let the other raw exposed part of my feelings just flow out. It's cathartic. Doesn't change my opinion on Trump supporters. Still can't wrap my head around anyone ever supporting that man for any reason whatsoever. The hardest part about Trump's entire run is coming to grips with just how fundamentally different someone would have to be wired to support that unbelievable transparent and obvious piece of shit and it's hard for me to accept that my fellow humans can really be that willfully ignorant. It's shocking to me and always will be shocking to me. I never post anything on facebook ever as a rule. Nothing, ever. I only observe... much in the same way you slow down to see a bad car wreck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastlevaniaNut18 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 I gotta vent and this thread seems like a good place to do it. I started my current job a few months prior to the 2016 election. I generally like the people I work with. There's been one woman in particular, we'd somehow hit it off and became friends. She's a great nurse, really helpful and for more than two years, we worked the same weekend shifts, so we spent 36 hours a week together. Even went out to eat and for drinks occasionally. She's 63. She's also a conservative and a Trump fan. First, it wasn't so bad, then her views just got more and more corrosive. She's always been rather...loud...and opinionated. She has some sympathetic coworkers and she likes to hold court with them, so to speak. Anyway, over the last year or so, our relationship really started breaking down. She abruptly blocked me of FB because she didn't like my political opinions. I never commented on her shitty posts, but she would sometimes make drive by comments on mine and one time, she actually stuck around trying to argue that Trump wasn't actually racist, she lost, badly, not just with my, but several of my friends, too. So she blocked me and told people I was being "inappropriate." Ooooookay. She continued saying hateful things at work. Bashing BLM, ranting about the hospital pushing this "social justice bullshit" and this "diversity shit." Lamenting about cops "having their lives ruined for protecting themselves" by shooting these little 15 year old "thugs." Mocks the LBGT community, saying things like "I think I''ll identify as a cat today, who has a litter box for me?" and calling people who come out later in life and have marriages end "frauds" saying their spouses should sue them. She calls our manager a "lezzy come late" because she's now married to a woman when she was married to a man prior. Never mind this bitch has two failed marriages under her belt and is currently shacked up with a morbidly obese alcoholic 14 years younger than her who she babysat as a kid. She hates Muslims and says stuff like "I'll never forgive them for 9-11" and likes to boast how she protested at a mosque that day. I could go on, but you get the idea. I had spoken with her a couple times to try to get her to back off, the things she said we highly offensive and didn't belong in the workplace. She ignored me and kept up. So finally, I went to management. Said I wasn't trying to get her fired, I just wanted the behavior to stop. I'd talked to others and they'd felt the same way and some of them had already complained to management. It took them a while, but the finally talked to her about a month ago. She's been bitching about me with her sympathizers ever since. Says because I'm bisexual and all, I thought I could complain and be the victim, yadda yadda. The shifts I've worked with her have been really tense. Last night, I tried to speak with her privately, just to clarify some things and I said I wasn't trying to get her fired or anything, just wish she'd stop with the behavior. She blew up, stormed off to the nurse's station to rant at me in front of everyone, though this time, she didn't have all her usual cohorts there. She blamed me for being able to "dish it out on my FB, but not being able to take it at work. It was only a one way street." She even claimed I had a crush on her and that's why I was doing this. THE FUCK. She's older than my parents, fat, ugly, bad teeth, you get the idea. I actually laughed after my jaw dropped for a second. She then said we were done, our friendship was over. Honestly, fuck these people. They act like assholes and are completely incapable of self reflection. In her mind, she's never done anything wrong and she's the victim to bad people like me. She can't understand why people would be offended by her. Later on, she kept making little side comments like when someone was looking for a tech(who is black) she said "I dunno, I probably ran her off with my offensive comments." I think it's sad it came to this, but I don't need friends like that. These people are scum. They think they're being victimized. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimpleG Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 4 years old but @Greatoneshere stop demonizing them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadatog Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Keyser_Soze said: 4 years old but @Greatoneshere stop demonizing them I mean wasn't that what trump told them to do 3 years later? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 9 hours ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said: I gotta vent and this thread seems like a good place to do it. I started my current job a few months prior to the 2016 election. I generally like the people I work with. There's been one woman in particular, we'd somehow hit it off and became friends. She's a great nurse, really helpful and for more than two years, we worked the same weekend shifts, so we spent 36 hours a week together. Even went out to eat and for drinks occasionally. She's 63. She's also a conservative and a Trump fan. First, it wasn't so bad, then her views just got more and more corrosive. She's always been rather...loud...and opinionated. She has some sympathetic coworkers and she likes to hold court with them, so to speak. Anyway, over the last year or so, our relationship really started breaking down. She abruptly blocked me of FB because she didn't like my political opinions. I never commented on her shitty posts, but she would sometimes make drive by comments on mine and one time, she actually stuck around trying to argue that Trump wasn't actually racist, she lost, badly, not just with my, but several of my friends, too. So she blocked me and told people I was being "inappropriate." Ooooookay. She continued saying hateful things at work. Bashing BLM, ranting about the hospital pushing this "social justice bullshit" and this "diversity shit." Lamenting about cops "having their lives ruined for protecting themselves" by shooting these little 15 year old "thugs." Mocks the LBGT community, saying things like "I think I''ll identify as a cat today, who has a litter box for me?" and calling people who come out later in life and have marriages end "frauds" saying their spouses should sue them. She calls our manager a "lezzy come late" because she's now married to a woman when she was married to a man prior. Never mind this bitch has two failed marriages under her belt and is currently shacked up with a morbidly obese alcoholic 14 years younger than her who she babysat as a kid. She hates Muslims and says stuff like "I'll never forgive them for 9-11" and likes to boast how she protested at a mosque that day. I could go on, but you get the idea. I had spoken with her a couple times to try to get her to back off, the things she said we highly offensive and didn't belong in the workplace. She ignored me and kept up. So finally, I went to management. Said I wasn't trying to get her fired, I just wanted the behavior to stop. I'd talked to others and they'd felt the same way and some of them had already complained to management. It took them a while, but the finally talked to her about a month ago. She's been bitching about me with her sympathizers ever since. Says because I'm bisexual and all, I thought I could complain and be the victim, yadda yadda. The shifts I've worked with her have been really tense. Last night, I tried to speak with her privately, just to clarify some things and I said I wasn't trying to get her fired or anything, just wish she'd stop with the behavior. She blew up, stormed off to the nurse's station to rant at me in front of everyone, though this time, she didn't have all her usual cohorts there. She blamed me for being able to "dish it out on my FB, but not being able to take it at work. It was only a one way street." She even claimed I had a crush on her and that's why I was doing this. THE FUCK. She's older than my parents, fat, ugly, bad teeth, you get the idea. I actually laughed after my jaw dropped for a second. She then said we were done, our friendship was over. Honestly, fuck these people. They act like assholes and are completely incapable of self reflection. In her mind, she's never done anything wrong and she's the victim to bad people like me. She can't understand why people would be offended by her. Later on, she kept making little side comments like when someone was looking for a tech(who is black) she said "I dunno, I probably ran her off with my offensive comments." I think it's sad it came to this, but I don't need friends like that. These people are scum. They think they're being victimized. Sorry you have to deal with that. Is what she is doing not harassment? She definitely seems to be creating a hostile working environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 Also a petition for @Commissar SFLUFAN to change the COVID to an Urn for Michael Shannon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarSolo Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 I had a fun interaction with a Trump supporter yesterday. He was so convinced that Trump will still be President after January 20th that I bet him $2000 that wouldn’t be the case. He wouldn’t take the bet, because his logic was “even though the voter fraud is legit and Trump will be in office on the 20th, I can’t trust the Dems won’t find a way to cheat and get Biden into office.” These people are insane and can’t be reasoned with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastlevaniaNut18 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 8 hours ago, johnny said: Sorry you have to deal with that. Is what she is doing not harassment? She definitely seems to be creating a hostile working environment. It is and the ironic thing is, I could probably get her fired if I really wanted her out of a job. I held back on giving them the worst of what she’s said. I had just hoped I could give them enough to where they’ve give her the talk and maybe she’d fucking realize she needs to shut the fuck up. Apparently that wasn’t enough. At least my manager did say I didn’t have to work any weekend shifts anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 22 minutes ago, MarSolo said: I had a fun interaction with a Trump supporter yesterday. He was so convinced that Trump will still be President after January 20th that I bet him $2000 that wouldn’t be the case. He wouldn’t take the bet, because his logic was “even though the voter fraud is legit and Trump will be in office on the 20th, I can’t trust the Dems won’t find a way to cheat and get Biden into office.” These people are insane and can’t be reasoned with. As a radical liberal you should have convinced him you had doubt and you were afraid to get his confidence up to bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 I know I'm a broken record, and if you follow me on Twitter, I'm basically a record on fire, but I cannot overstate how big a role Fox News and conservative talk-radio plays in this dichotomy. It's truly an alternate reality, and with messaging the past few days about voter fraud and election integrity, it's radicalizing their viewers and listeners. I know Republicans have basically co-opted the word "radical" to describe Democrats, but it really is the most accurate word to describe what's going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarSolo Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 56 minutes ago, osxmatt said: I know I'm a broken record, and if you follow me on Twitter, I'm basically a record on fire, but I cannot overstate how big a role Fox News and conservative talk-radio plays in this dichotomy. It's truly an alternate reality, and with messaging the past few days about voter fraud and election integrity, it's radicalizing their viewers and listeners. I know Republicans have basically co-opted the word "radical" to describe Democrats, but it really is the most accurate word to describe what's going on. It’s really a shame that nothing can be done about Murdoch owned media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewhyteboar Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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