[First Manafort trial] Manafort pleads guilty to two of seven charges in second case

[silentbob]

If she is legit. I’m surprised she was able to find him guilty of the 8 accounts.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

8 hours ago, silentbob said:

How many Pardons can one person get? If he decides to do this almost right away. He still has oneother guaranteed trial happening which would maybe involve President Cheeto with some evidence. Plus the possible retrial of the 10 charges the jury was hung on. 

There is no limit, and furthermore, a "blanket" pardon could be issued that would negate the second trial and the retrial on the 10 hung charges.

[Jwheel86]

38 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

There is no limit, and furthermore, a "blanket" pardon could be issued that would negate the second trial and the retrial on the 10 hung charges.

Manafort would have to talk to Mueller's team then, under oath, since he'd lose 5th Amendment protections. 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

11 hours ago, Jason said:

 

 

 

The best journalists

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

 

[Captain Pickle]

10 hours ago, Jason said:

Fox interviews a MAGA chud who was one of the Manafort jurors, who says she wasn't the lone holdout juror.

How much was the one juror paid?

 

Either that or she was a rural juror.

[ort]

37 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

 

 

SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[PaladinSolo]

39 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

 

See Nixon. 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Just now, PaladinSolo said:

See Nixon. 

He wasn't impeached. He quit when he was on top of his game. Trump_pointing_to_head.jpg

[legend]

https://nypost.com/2018/08/21/cohen-willing-to-tell-mueller-about-conspiracy-to-collude-lawyer/

 

Quote

Michael Cohen is willing to speak with Special Counsel Robert Mueller about a “conspiracy to collude” with Russia during the 2016 presidential campaign, his lawyer said on Tuesday night.

 

Quote

“Not just about the obvious possibility of a conspiracy to collude and corrupt the American democracy system in the 2016 election, which the Trump Tower meeting was all about, but also knowledge about the computer crime of hacking and whether or not Mr. Trump knew ahead of time about that crime and even cheered it on.”

 

 

We'll see.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

If Cohen had anything of value to offer the Special Counsel, then the SDNY would've offered a "cooperative plea agreement".  Let's not forget that it was the Special Counsel that referred the case to the SDNY after discovering information that was outside the scope of their investigation so the Special Counsel would've already had a pretty damned good idea of Cohen had anything of value for them.

 

Cohen's got nothing.

[mclumber1]

8 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

If Cohen had anything of value to offer the Special Counsel, then the SDNY would've offered a "cooperative plea agreement".  Let's not forget that it was the Special Counsel that referred the case to the SDNY after discovering information that was outside the scope of their investigation so the Special Counsel would've already had a pretty damned good idea of Cohen had anything of value for them.

 

Cohen's got nothing.

 

I think Cohen probably has a lot, but:

 

1. The huge amount of physical and electronic evidence gathered in the spring raid probably points towards conspiracy to collude.

2.He's an unreliable witness, and the defense for Trump in a hypothetical trial will tear him to shreds. 

[ort]

[legend]

24 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

If Cohen had anything of value to offer the Special Counsel, then the SDNY would've offered a "cooperative plea agreement".  Let's not forget that it was the Special Counsel that referred the case to the SDNY after discovering information that was outside the scope of their investigation so the Special Counsel would've already had a pretty damned good idea of Cohen had anything of value for them.

 

Cohen's got nothing.

 

Yeah I think that's probably true as well. It seems like a hail Mary, particularly because unless he has concrete evidence to offer that they don't already have, his statement is pretty useless.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

13 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

2.He's an unreliable witness, and the defense for Trump in a hypothetical trial will tear him to shreds. 

This is also a very strong reason as to why Cohen wasn't offered a cooperative plea agreement.  He's simply not credible.

[Spork3245]

1 hour ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

He wasn't impeached. He quit when he was on top of his game. Trump_pointing_to_head.jpg

 

 

Close enough?

[CitizenVectron]

3 hours ago, SFLUFAN said:

This is also a very strong reason as to why Cohen wasn't offered a cooperative plea agreement.  He's simply not credible.

 

I think Cohen probably does have good stuff to give Mueller, but he can't be trusted so there is no point in risking any evidence on his word. Any electronic documents they seized from him, however, would be solid evidence and they already have that.

[Chairslinger]

Interesting article covering some legal minutiae.

 

A Lone Holdout Juror Actually Made It More Likely That Paul Manafort Will Go to Jail Even if Trump Pardons Him

 

At the beginning it details a trick Mueller can use to get around State Double Jeopardy laws if Trump pardons Manafort. Long story short Mueller can't charge him with the same crime twice, but federal tax fraud and state tax fraud are different laws. Manafort has only been convicted of the former, but being guilty of the one means a virtual certainty that you're guilty of the other. And best of all, the verdict in the federal trial would be admissible in the state trial.

 

Quote

Further devastating for Manafort’s pardon hopes, according to Virginia rules of evidence, past convictions can be admissible: “Such evidence is admissible if it tends to prove any relevant fact pertaining to the offense charged, such as where it is relevant to show motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, accident, or if they are part of a common scheme or plan.” So in a Virginia trial against Manafort for tax fraud, these many federal convictions would be admissible and devastating

 

 

However the real kicker is that, as the headline says, the counts the jury hung on may be more trouble for a pardoned Manafort than if he had been convicted of them.

 

Because if he was convicted on them, the pardon would wipe them clean and a state could not bring them again. But being hung on them means he was neither found innocent or convicted, so if Trump makes it clear with a pardon that retrying them in Federal court is pointless, a state could take over.

 

Quote

 

Manafort was also tried on bank fraud relating to New York and California banks. Both states have double jeopardy statutes that seem to create a potential pardon protection. But there was a hung jury on the conspiracy bank fraud charge for the California bank. California’s double jeopardy law states: “No person can be subjected to a second prosecution for a public offense for which he has once been prosecuted and convicted or acquitted.” That obviously excludes mistrials. So, California could prosecute the separate act of conspiracy bank fraud, because Manafort has never been prosecuted and convicted or acquitted of that charge.

 

There was also a hung jury on the four bank fraud charges for his dealings with the Federal Savings Bank in Illinois. The state’s double jeopardy law also allows a second state prosecution after a mistrial. It is ironic that the one hold-out juror who caused a mistrial on some charges opened up Manafort to state retrials.

 

 

 

How'd you like to be the guy trying to explain all this to Trump who is sitting there with pen in hand thinking a pardon will solve everything(you know, just like firing Comey did).

[silentbob]

Either they got to make it an animated special or a great puppet show to keep him Interested in this very important lesson. Better make the humans into Gorillas too, just for extra insurance for his individed attention

[Jason]

10 hours ago, Chairslinger said:

How'd you like to be the guy trying to explain all this to Trump who is sitting there with pen in hand thinking a pardon will solve everything(you know, just like firing Comey did).

 

Just put his McDonald's order in front of him and tell him it's a pardon for Manafort.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

10 minutes ago, Jason said:

 

Just put his McDonald's order in front of him and tell him it's a pardon for Manafort.

You'd need buy in from Fox and friends and hannity etc

[Jason]

 

[PaladinSolo]

One of manafort's primary bankers was robbed, an iPad, briefcase, and sneakers were stolen, lol. 

[Jason]

 

[Jason]

 

[mclumber1]

The plea deal better include sworn statements against others in his sphere (Trump), or else, what is the point of prosecutors agreeing to it? 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

16 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

The plea deal better include sworn statements against others in his sphere (Trump), or else, what is the point of prosecutors agreeing to it? 

They wouldn't have to spend time/resources on appeals

[Chairslinger]

Prior to Cohen's guilty plea I would have pegged the likelihood of Manafort flipping as very high with this news.

 

But we really still don't know what happened with Cohen, so even if most signs point to Manafort needing to flip if he's going to plead, no way to know until they announce it.

 

I mean, if Manafort pleads guilty with no co-operation he's likely looking at a hefty, if reduced, sentence here and enough years in the other case to put him away for the rest of his life. And on top of that, you make an already politically tenuous pardon more ridiculous by having admitted you are guilty!

 

On top of that, while Mueller's team has handed off other cases they have kept this one for themselves. Indicating that they see it as one that goes to the heart of their central investigation. It is not hard to come up with examples of why Manafort would be important for evidence of Russian collusion. So it seems unlikely that cutting their losses to save some money would be a driving factor to let Manafort off at all easier then is absolutely necessary. 

 

But hey, like I said, doesn't make much sense to me but I also haven't made much sense of Cohen's deal, either.

[Jason]

 

[SaysWho?]

What I'm wondering about is, if he's holding out for a pardon, why make a deal and plead guilty?

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

3 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

What I'm wondering about is, if he's holding out for a pardon, why make a deal and plead guilty?

While Trump is irrational, manaforts (legal) bank accounts are rational, and are probably running low due to legal fees.

[Jason]

Damn coffee boys colluding with each other to make Donnie look bad. 

[Chairslinger]

11 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

What I'm wondering about is, if he's holding out for a pardon, why make a deal and plead guilty?

 

7 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

While Trump is irrational, manaforts (legal) bank accounts are rational, and are probably running low due to legal fees.

 

 

Apparently Manafort forfeits nearly 50 million in assets with this plea.

 

The charges involved state crimes, so he has now pled guilty to stuff Trump can't repardon him for even if he tries to once.

 

And there's no mention of a big reduction in sentence.

 

Manafort is going away for years, and I am starting to think there is some real validity to the argument that Manafort isn't staying quiet because he is scared of Trump being mean to him, he's scared of Russians killing him or his family if he rats.

[mclumber1]

1 minute ago, Chairslinger said:

 

 

 

Apparently Manafort forfeits nearly 50 million in assets with this plea.

 

The charges involved state crimes, so he has now pled guilty to stuff Trump can't repardon him for even if he tries to once.

 

And there's no mention of a big reduction in sentence.

 

Manafort is going away for years, and I am starting to think there is some real validity to the argument that Manafort isn't staying quiet because he is scared of Trump being mean to him, he's scared of Russians killing him or his family if he rats.

 

So if the Mueller investigation has cost $28 million, it looks like the entire operation is now profitable for the government.  

[Jason]

3 minutes ago, Chairslinger said:

The charges involved state crimes, so he has now pled guilty to stuff Trump can't repardon him for even if he tries to once.

 

Has he already pled guilty to the state portion? Because remember that New York still has that law on the books where they won't prosecute you for something the feds have already pardoned you on.