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Nvidia 4xxx Series - The Official Perennially Disappointing Hunt for More Power!

Mr.Vic20

By Mr.Vic20
in The Spawn Point

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stepee

stepee

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I thought this was fun from DF’s video comparing Plague’s Tale 2, stolen from foot guy on resetera:

 

 

“with exactly console settings, vs ps5

5700 - 78%

2060S - 86.5%

2070S - 103.8%

Series X - 123%

2080Ti - 146.7%

6800XT - 173.1%

3080 - 188.4%

4090 - 372.8%

4090 / FG - 500%”

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Mr.Vic20

Mr.Vic20

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2 minutes ago, stepee said:

ummmmmm

 

nvidia-geforce-drivers-meta-image-1200x6

GeForce Game Ready Driver | 526.98 | Windows 10 64-bit, Windows 11 | NVIDIA

WWW.NVIDIA.COM
Download the English (US) GeForce Game Ready Driver for Windows 10 64-bit, Windows 11 systems. Released 2022.11.16

 

 

  • Introduces DLSS Frame Generation support for VSync when G-SYNC is enabled

 

@Spork3245

@Mr.Vic20

It also introduces RTX IO, not that there are any games to use it yet. 

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elbobo

elbobo

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7 hours ago, stepee said:

I thought this was fun from DF’s video comparing Plague’s Tale 2, stolen from foot guy on resetera:

 

 

“with exactly console settings, vs ps5

5700 - 78%

2060S - 86.5%

2070S - 103.8%

Series X - 123%

2080Ti - 146.7%

6800XT - 173.1%

3080 - 188.4%

4090 - 372.8%

4090 / FG - 500%”

 

4090/FG?

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Spork3245

Spork3245

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The 4080 is such a weird card the more I think about it. Performance-wise it’s a very good option, about 25-30% faster than a 3090 Ti in most cases without frame generation, and priced at the 3080 Ti original MSRP. However, that price is really the problem, despite it falling in line with previous pricing (xx80 price matching the previous #2 card while exceeding the previous #1 card’s performance) as for $400 more you’re getting nearly 2x the performance of the 3090 Ti with a 4090. If the card was just $100 cheaper (ideally $200) it’d be a much better idea. I’m not even considering the 7900 XT/X in this either, as the performance there is still a guess for a couple more weeks.

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Massdriver

Massdriver

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4080 pricing doesn’t make sense in the context of the 4090.
 

And all these new prices are from an era when crypto was drastically increasing demand above supply. The 3080ti is a great example of something that was already overpriced at $1199 when it came out. The 3080 was $699. Nvidia saw the amount people were paying for cards because of crypto so they jacked the price way up to capture some of that. I don’t blame them for that at the time, but since then crypto has crashed hard and nvidia and Amd are trying to normalize those prices for gamers.  
 

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-has-sold-160k-geforce-rtx-40-graphics-cards-already-but-stores-are-still-full-of-rtx-4080s

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stepee

stepee

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9 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

The 4080 is such a weird card the more I think about it. Performance-wise it’s a very good option, about 25-30% faster than a 3090 Ti in most cases without frame generation, and priced at the 3080 Ti original MSRP. However, that price is really the problem, despite it falling in line with previous pricing (xx80 price matching the previous #2 card while exceeding the previous #1 card’s performance) as for $400 more you’re getting nearly 2x the performance of the 3090 Ti with a 4090. If the card was just $100 cheaper (ideally $200) it’d be a much better idea. I’m not even considering the 7900 XT/X in this either, as the performance there is still a guess for a couple more weeks.

 

I feel like the engineering team knocked it out of the damn park and then marketing/management jumped on the field and caught it over the bleachers. Like even just making the 4080 $200 cheaper and the 4090 $200 more instead would have drastically improved the PR. I mean, I’m glad they didn’t do that but oof not to mention the 4080 12gb idea was pure marketing failure.

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Spork3245

Spork3245

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53 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

4080 pricing doesn’t make sense in the context of the 4090.
 

And all these new prices are from an era when crypto was drastically increasing demand above supply. The 3080ti is a great example of something that was already overpriced at $1199 when it came out. The 3080 was $699. Nvidia saw the amount people were paying for cards because of crypto so they jacked the price way up to capture some of that. I don’t blame them for that at the time, but since then crypto has crashed hard and nvidia and Amd are trying to normalize those prices for gamers.  
 

https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-has-sold-160k-geforce-rtx-40-graphics-cards-already-but-stores-are-still-full-of-rtx-4080s


The 2080 Ti is what kinda started this for non-Titan cards. MSRP was $1k+, 3080 launched at the 2080 price. It’s worth noting that it wasn’t only the crypto nonsense, as there was also supply chain issues with a semiconductor shortage that also drove up prices, which put the 3080 Ti at $1.2k (if you were lucky to find one at that price :lol: ) instead of the $1k it likely would have been otherwise. nVidia in all their wisdom decided to continue the boosted prices instead of going back to a sane reality. I’m just glad that the 4090 is “only” $100 more than the 3090’s launch msrp :p 

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stepee

stepee

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1 minute ago, Spork3245 said:


The 2080 Ti is what kinda started this for non-Titan cards. MSRP was $1k+, 3080 launched at the 2080 price. It’s worth noting that it wasn’t only the crypto nonsense, as there was also supply chain issues with a semiconductor shortage that also drove up prices, which put the 3080 Ti at $1.2k (if you were lucky to find one at that price :lol: ) instead of the $1k it likely would have been otherwise. nVidia in all their wisdom decided to continue the boosted prices instead of going back to a sane reality. I’m just glad that the 4090 is “only” $100 more than the 3090’s launch msrp :p 

 

The $1600 4090 is the real deal of the century, sorry GamePass! 

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Mr.Vic20

Mr.Vic20

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Dear Nvidia,

 

Its the 22nd of November and according to this article below, I will be receiving RTX Racers Demo, Portal Remix, and RTX Remix "in November" (no year noted):

 

racer-rtx-still.jpg

‘Racer RTX’ Demo Revs to Photorealistic Life, Built on NVIDIA Omniverse

BLOGS.NVIDIA.COM
30+ NVIDIA artists across time zones created the fully playable, simulated demo using nearly a dozen content-creation apps, all in just three months.

 

Please let me have these now! If you don't, I'll have to watch Avatar the movie instead! @Keyser_Soze :cry:

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cusideabelincoln

cusideabelincoln

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7 hours ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

Dear Nvidia,

 

Its the 22nd of November and according to this article below, I will be receiving RTX Racers Demo, Portal Remix, and RTX Remix "in November" (no year noted):

 

racer-rtx-still.jpg

‘Racer RTX’ Demo Revs to Photorealistic Life, Built on NVIDIA Omniverse

BLOGS.NVIDIA.COM
30+ NVIDIA artists across time zones created the fully playable, simulated demo using nearly a dozen content-creation apps, all in just three months.

 

Please let me have these now! If you don't, I'll have to watch Avatar the movie instead! @Keyser_Soze :cry:

 

Here's the REAL time ray tracing demo:

 

Spoiler

Amazon.com

WWW.AMAZON.COM

 

 

 

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Commissar SFLUFAN

Commissar SFLUFAN

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Not unrelatedly...

 

wW4a9ZHBV4WDUdEtCV9Nf3-1200-80.jpg

GPU Market Nosedives, Sales Lowest In a Decade | Tom's Hardware

WWW.TOMSHARDWARE.COM
Intel solidifies GPU positions amid graphics market slump.

 

Quote

 

Shipments of integrated and discrete graphics processing units dropped to a 10-year low in the third quarter as PC OEMs reduced procurements of CPUs, and gamers lowered their purchases of existing graphics cards while waiting for next-generation products. In contrast, miners ceased to buy graphics boards due to changes that happened to Ethereum. In general, sales of standalone graphics cards for desktops hit a multi-year low.

 

Usually, PC makers increase procurement of PC hardware components in the third quarter as they assemble computers to sell them in back-to-school and holiday seasons when sales are high. But as demand for PCs softened recently, manufacturers initiated inventory corrections and lowered their components buying to sell off what they already have.

 

As a result, sales of integrated and discrete GPU dropped to 75.5 million units in Q3 2022, down 10.5% sequentially and 25.1% year-over-year, according to Jon Peddie Research (JPR)(opens in new tab). In addition, shipments of desktop GPUs fell by 15.43%, and notebook GPUs decreased by 30%, which is the most significant drop since the 2009 recession, JPR notes.

 

 

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stepee

stepee

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4080 came out like just a week ago didn’t it? Crazy it looks like you can just get one at msrp right now. Certain stores and models are out but there are some I see just sitting on newegg for instance.

 

4090 appears to be still difficult to get in the US, but from what I understand in other countries the price is not adjusted and thus even more outrageous and keeping those from selling as well.

 

This should all be bode well for @Zaku3 getting the new AMD card next month!

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Spork3245

Spork3245

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6 hours ago, stepee said:

4080 came out like just a week ago didn’t it? Crazy it looks like you can just get one at msrp right now. Certain stores and models are out but there are some I see just sitting on newegg for instance.

 

4090 appears to be still difficult to get in the US, but from what I understand in other countries the price is not adjusted and thus even more outrageous and keeping those from selling as well.

 

Scalpers got wrecked on 4080s lololol.

 

6 hours ago, stepee said:

This should all be bode well for @Zaku3 getting the new AMD card next month!

 

MAYBE. The 4080 is selling poorly because most are waiting on the new AMD card benchmarks as the 4080 has gotten labeled, even by novices, as a bad value, the 7900 XT/X haven't.

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Spork3245

Spork3245

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Huh. After something I read, I started comparing benchmarks between the 4080 and 4090 a little more closely, and the 4080 seems to be roughly 75-80% of the performance of the 4090 pending on the game, and is priced at 75% of the 4090’s base msrp. Is… is it not actually a bad value? 
I found a cost per (avg) frame chart and the 4080 seems to work out slightly better than the 4090: 

6059-A5-C0-43-EA-45-DE-B4-BB-9-F1-A91089
 

Obviously value is relative, but it seems to somehow be priced appropriately, despite how shitty $1200 for the #2 card looks and sounds. This, of course, is disregarding the 7900XTX and its $1k pricing, and is just comparing it with the 4090.

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stepee

stepee

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9 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

Huh. After something I read, I started comparing benchmarks between the 4080 and 4090 a little more closely, and the 4080 seems to be roughly 75-80% of the performance of the 4090 pending on the game, and is priced at 75% of the 4090’s base msrp. Is… is it not actually a bad value? 
I found a cost per (avg) frame chart and the 4080 seems to work out slightly better than the 4090: 

6059-A5-C0-43-EA-45-DE-B4-BB-9-F1-A91089
 

Obviously value is relative, but it seems to somehow be priced appropriately, despite how shitty $1200 for the #2 card looks and sounds. This, of course, is disregarding the 7900XTX and its $1k pricing, and is just comparing it with the 4090.

 

Unless there’s something missing here this just makes me think more so that nvidia could have made this all go at least a lot better had they simply named them differently like 4080, 4080ti, 4090 then. Of course they still wouldn’t have a card priced for most of the market, but at least it wouldn’t look like they were trying to and failing.

This would actually be a bigger leap than other recent gens compared to a 3080 10gb if it’s pulling in 75-80% of a 4090.    

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cusideabelincoln

cusideabelincoln

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13 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

Huh. After something I read, I started comparing benchmarks between the 4080 and 4090 a little more closely, and the 4080 seems to be roughly 75-80% of the performance of the 4090 pending on the game, and is priced at 75% of the 4090’s base msrp. Is… is it not actually a bad value? 
I found a cost per (avg) frame chart and the 4080 seems to work out slightly better than the 4090: 

6059-A5-C0-43-EA-45-DE-B4-BB-9-F1-A91089
 

Obviously value is relative, but it seems to somehow be priced appropriately, despite how shitty $1200 for the #2 card looks and sounds. This, of course, is disregarding the 7900XTX and its $1k pricing, and is just comparing it with the 4090.

 

By doing this they are removing the "halo" price inflation of the 4090. It's always been the case that the fastest card is proportionally more expensive than the gain in performance. The 3080 was half the price of a 3090 but 85% the performance. 2080 was 55% the price of a 2080 Ti but delivered 75% the performance.

 

So the value is only good if we use the "halo" pricing as the baseline. Using the "sane" historic pricing, it looks like a rip off.

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Spork3245

Spork3245

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9 hours ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

By doing this they are removing the "halo" price inflation of the 4090. It's always been the case that the fastest card is proportionally more expensive than the gain in performance. The 3080 was half the price of a 3090 but 85% the performance. 2080 was 55% the price of a 2080 Ti but delivered 75% the performance.

 

So the value is only good if we use the "halo" pricing as the baseline. Using the "sane" historic pricing, it looks like a rip off.


My post is more about the the 4090 being widely considered an “actually good value” despite the the price tag, while the 4080 is being generally considered a terrible value proposition because of the pricing - this is in spite of previous pricing and was/is coming down to the price-to-performance between the two cards. I don’t disagree regarding the price vs previous cards, as even considering inflation from 2020 to 2022, the 3080 would now be $900-950, so (as I put in an earlier post) the 4080 would make sense, historically, to be priced at $1k tops, but again, my post isn’t regarding historical prices, as nVidia seems to be basing pricing off of what would normally be the Ti for the non-Ti 4080. Historically the new non-Titan flagship (xx80) would price similarly to the previous post-refresh #2 card (ie: 2080, 1080, 980, etc), however, nVidia seemingly decided to add the xx90 in the equation now that it’s no longer called “Titan” (which is dumb AF), and have based 4080 pricing off of the 3080 Ti (which is not good for consumers).

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cusideabelincoln

cusideabelincoln

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12 hours ago, Spork3245 said:


My post is more about the the 4090 being widely considered an “actually good value” despite the the price tag, while the 4080 is being generally considered a terrible value proposition because of the pricing - this is in spite of previous pricing and was/is coming down to the price-to-performance between the two cards. I don’t disagree regarding the price vs previous cards, as even considering inflation from 2020 to 2022, the 3080 would now be $900-950, so (as I put in an earlier post) the 4080 would make sense, historically, to be priced at $1k tops, but again, my post isn’t regarding historical prices, as nVidia seems to be basing pricing off of what would normally be the Ti for the non-Ti 4080. Historically the new non-Titan flagship (xx80) would price similarly to the previous post-refresh #2 card (ie: 2080, 1080, 980, etc), however, nVidia seemingly decided to add the xx90 in the equation now that it’s no longer called “Titan” (which is dumb AF), and have based 4080 pricing off of the 3080 Ti (which is not good for consumers).

 

3 reasons Nvidia wanted to try the 4080 pricing:

 

1. Obviously, to give old stock a chance to sell at a higher price.

 

2. They think the 4090 pricing is a fair value, so they don't want to "give away" money by selling lower tiered cards at a discount. "If the 4090 is fair, then the 4080 is proportionally fair".

 

3. If they managed to successfully (as in, people buys them) jack up the prices of lower tiered cards, they would create a new normal in which they can then increase the halo pricing of their next cards.

 

 

I don't see a problem with the 4080 costing maybe $200 more than the 3080 did. There is more RAM, and the RAM chips probably haven't come down in price by that much since the 3080 launched. And the power delivery and cooler costs are definitely increased as those components don't see much price change over time - although the 4080 really doesn't need to be as robust as it is currently configured. But being almost double the cost is insane.

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Spork3245

Spork3245

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14 hours ago, cusideabelincoln said:

 

3 reasons Nvidia wanted to try the 4080 pricing:

 

1. Obviously, to give old stock a chance to sell at a higher price.

 

2. They think the 4090 pricing is a fair value, so they don't want to "give away" money by selling lower tiered cards at a discount. "If the 4090 is fair, then the 4080 is proportionally fair".

 

3. If they managed to successfully (as in, people buys them) jack up the prices of lower tiered cards, they would create a new normal in which they can then increase the halo pricing of their next cards.

 

 

I don't see a problem with the 4080 costing maybe $200 more than the 3080 did. There is more RAM, and the RAM chips probably haven't come down in price by that much since the 3080 launched. And the power delivery and cooler costs are definitely increased as those components don't see much price change over time - although the 4080 really doesn't need to be as robust as it is currently configured. But being almost double the cost is insane.


I don’t disagree, but that’s also not what my initial post was discussing. :p 

I do want to mention that the estimated price increase doesn’t seem to be taking the 15%+ inflation of 2020-now into account as well. If we go by the 12gb 3080, $800 from then until now is now over $920, with the $700 8gb 3080 it’s now about $810, take into account the additional ram and newer tech (we also don’t know if semiconductor costs are greater than +15% compared to the 3000 release) then a ~$1k price is likely most comparable to previous non-Ti xx80 series releases. With other unknowns, $1.1k tops. The 4080 is overpriced by at least $100 no matter how you cut it when compared to previous xx80 cards, but I’m only talking about it’s price-to-performance ratio vs the 4090, and the 4080 being written off as a bad value that makes no sense at $1200 when compared to the $1600 4090. I wouldn’t recommend a 4080, I was just surprised at the breakdown showing it a better price-to-performance value than the 4090 given the sentiment/headlines stating the opposite. It’s also worth noting that the 4080 seems to get a noticeable boost from OCing closing the performance gap more. I’ve been telling people who don’t want to spend $1.6k to hold off and “wait for real AMD 7900XT/X benchmarks” before deciding.

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