Shooting at Jacksonville leaves 4 dead, 11 injured

[CayceG]

26 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said:

Guaranteed way to get sweeping gun control:

 

 

I'd rather see this than a repeal of the 2nd Amendment. 

 

DSA and African American community groups getting together and exercising their rights in public to scare whitey should affect some amount of change. 

[Greatoneshere]

37 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Yeah, this is exactly why you'll see the furtherance of the super pro-gun counter culture.  The gun industry thanks you. 

 

See, this is where you and I disagree I think. You see it as a "don't antagonize pro-gun culture with far left crazy ideas" as being the problem in the culture that needs to change first but any kind of gun control has historically been seen as antagonization by pro-gun culture. The far left crazy ideas have now come out because pro-gun culture has blocked any offered half measures as being just as insane as repealing the second amendment.

 

Pro-second amendment repealment is as a response to the pro-gun/NRA culture that has bred here for centuries, not the other way around. While I believe in always bridging gaps I'm not sure we should care so much anymore what the pro-gun culture has to say except insofar as we need them to get changes made given their complicity in this problem for so long.

[PaladinSolo]

5 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Yeah, this is exactly why you'll see the furtherance of the super pro-gun counter culture.  The gun industry thanks you. 

They've been whining we're coming for their guns for decades, might as well actually do the thing they claim at this point.

[skillzdadirecta]

37 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Yeah, this is exactly why you'll see the furtherance of the super pro-gun counter culture.  The gun industry thanks you. 

 

As if anything we would or could say would influence people on the "Pro Gun" side... the fact that people actually consider themselves "Pro gun" but also consider themselves "Pro Life" is part of the problem. The whole mindset is fucked and there's really no reasoning with it.  So yeah, I'm completely done with trying to reason with idiots. We've been governing to the lowest common denominator (of a particular group in this country) for too long. People are gonna believe what they want to believe so...

[Slug]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

 

As if anything we would or could say would influence people on the "Pro Gun" side... the fact that people actually consider themselves "Pro gun" but also consider themselves "Pro Life" is part of the problem. The whole mindset is fucked and there's really no reasoning with it.  So yeah, I'm completely done with trying to reason with idiots. We've been governing to the lowest common denominator (of a particular group in this country) for too long. People are gonna believe what they want to believe so...

Is there anything they can say that would influence you?

[PaladinSolo]

8 minutes ago, Slug said:

Is there anything they can say that would influence you?

Not gonna lie, arming elementary kids is always going to be a hard no. As well as paying schools for guns while teachers beg parents for school supplies every year. It's just a parade of stupid really. 

[skillzdadirecta]

52 minutes ago, CayceG said:

 

 

I'd rather see this than a repeal of the 2nd Amendment. 

 

DSA and African American community groups getting together and exercising their rights in public to scare whitey should affect some amount of change. 

 

It damn sure did in California... the one time the NRA came out in support of gun control legislation.  Except nowadays, the cops would just shoot any lawful gun carrying minorities exercising their rights.

 

13 minutes ago, Slug said:

Is there anything they can say that would influence you?

 

There's nothing they need to say to influence me. I'm not anti gun and I'm not for repealing the second amendment... My father and grandmother are both law enforcement (Grandmother is retired, Dad is retiring soon) and I grew up around guns and in a neighborhood we're you really needed to think about home protection and defending your family. But also, having close family members become victims of gun violence where having a gun wouldn't have made a difference... or having  family member killed by an off duty cop who was trying to stop a robbery in progress, my perspective is going to be a little different than a weekend warrior's who has never experienced any true danger in his life but thinks he's gonna be combat ready when the shit goes down, and single handedly stop a terrorist attack or a hostile take over by the feds with his trust AR-15 and his Bible.

 

Only thing I would like to see is guns be treated like cars at a minimum...  make sure folks are trained and responsible gun owners  with registered firearms that are safely stored and secured in their homes and that they have some kind of insurance that covers their gun and the fact that they have one. I''m for REGULATION  not PROHIBITION.

 

 

6 minutes ago, PaladinSolo said:

Not gonna lie, arming elementary kids is always going to be a hard no. As well as paying schools for guns while teachers beg parents for school supplies every year. It's just a parade of stupid really. 

 

Yes... and if this is the best idea they can come up with in trying to "convince" me, then they can seriously go fuck themselves. Anyone who can't see the problems this would introduce for public safety isn't worth talking to to be honest. 

[Slug]

10 minutes ago, PaladinSolo said:

Not gonna lie, arming elementary kids is always going to be a hard no. As well as paying schools for guns while teachers beg parents for school supplies every year. It's just a parade of stupid really. 

Yeah, that one bugs me.

[Kal-El814]

Don’t criminalize gun current gun ownership but ban the sale of semiautomatic weapons to civilians now and forever. All gun laws should be federal and none should be more lax than the strictest gun laws on the books in any state currently. Criminalize any private modifications to guns to have them function in a semi or fully automatic way. Incentivize the return of guns from private citizens via buyback programs. Tax the everliving shit out of ammunition beyond what someone could reasonably use for hunting and criminalize the ownership of ammunition over a certain amount of rounds per owned firearm. Put hard limits on the number of guns any person can own.

 

I mean I don’t know I’m freestyling here and I’m sure there are implications I don’t know enough to consider intelligently on a whim but absolutely zero concessions should be made to gun owners or gun rights activists. It’s clear that we cannot handle the privilege.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

14 minutes ago, Slug said:

Is there anything they can say that would influence you?

The problem is it seems to be a zero sum debate. The gun nuts want to keep everything they have and get more and keep that.

 

Proponents of gun control want restrictions. Some call them a compromise

 

I see pro gun people say they should not have to give anything up, and push back on the notion of suggested restrictions being a compromise, because they get no added gun ownership benefits for allowing restrictions. 

 

The debate will never be "fine, we will allow assault rile ban if we can arm kids with .9mm handguns in schools."

[ALIEN-gunner]

 The killer, David Katz, was a mentally ill awkward young man who always kept to himself. He was not mentally able to accept defeat so after he lost and listened to the trash talk left the pizza place, went into his car where his handgun was, picked it up and went back into the pizza place and started shooting then shot himself. A true nutjob.  

 

Now people can call for the ban on guns or whatever just like they do when any reported news gets aired like this but that won't stop people with mentally ill issues. They'll just find other ways to murder others. Incidently in Chicago, a city with the most strick gun control laws, has the most cases of gun violence. 

 

The facts are that the overwhelming majority of US citizens who own guns don't do shit like this because they aren't criminals or mentally disturbed. Normal people don't murder. So trying to take their guns away, if it could even be done in anyone here's lifetime, would just be a bandaid fix for the root cause which is mental illness. 

 

[Kal-El814]

5 minutes ago, ALIEN-gunner said:

The facts are that the overwhelming majority of US citizens who own guns don't do shit like this because they aren't criminals or mentally disturbed. Normal people don't murder. So trying to take their guns away, if it could even be done in anyone here's lifetime, would just be a bandaid fix for the root cause which is mental illness. 

The majority of people suffering from mental illness are not violent and the majority of gun violence is not committed by the mentally ill.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

I wonder if the NRA would allow legislation mandating regular mental health evaluations for registered gun ownership with a screening required at the time of (within 5 days of) any new gun purchase.

 

I doubt it. But we'll always hear the issue is people with mental health issues having access to guns. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, Kal-El814 said:

The majority of people suffering from mental illness are not violent and the majority of gun violence is not committed by the mentally ill.

 

Also the US doesn't even have the highest rate of mental illness in the world... we DO lead the world in murders committed by guns though. I wonder why 

 Oh and a mentally ill person with a gun is going to do far more damage than a mentally ill person without one. This is one of the weakest most asinine and easily disprovable arguments out there.

[skillzdadirecta]

4 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

I wonder if the NRA would allow legislation mandating regular mental health evaluations for registered gun ownership with a screening required at the time of (within 5 days of) any new gun purchase.

 

I doubt it. But we'll always hear the issue is people with mental health issues having access to guns existing.

 

Didn't the NRA fight Obama's ban on mentally ill people being able to purchase guns? Didn't Trump repeal that executive order?

[ALIEN-gunner]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Also the US doesn't even have the highest rate of mental illness in the world... we DO lead the world in murders committed by guns though. I wonder why 

 Oh and a mentally ill person with a gun is going to do far more damage than a mentally ill person without one. This is one of the weakest most asinine and easily disprovable arguments out there.

I know and that wasn't my argument. They will do less damage without guns but they still will do damage. It's preventable too but mental illness is something that's harder to deal with so it's often ignored in favor of weak stop gaps. Not all people with mental illness are killers but those that kill are mentally ill in some way including criminals. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, ALIEN-gunner said:

I know and that wasn't my argument. They will do less damage without guns but they still will do damage. It's preventable too but mental illness is something that's harder to deal with so it's often ignored in favor of weak stop gaps. Not all people with mental illness are killers but those that kill are mentally ill in some way including criminals. 

 

The "weak stop gaps" are weak because nothing else can be done because of the pro-gun lobby. The root cause of gun violence is NOT mental illness. It just isn't. It's easy accessibility to guns. There's a reason the NRA doesn't want the C.D.C. to do a comprehensive study on the risks of having a gun in the home for the gun owner and his or her family vs homes without guns. Statistically your risks of being shot GO UP when a gun is in the home vs when one isn't... but the gun lobby doesn't want that out there.

 

You can deflect all you want, but mental illness isn't the main cause of our gun violence problem in the USA. The ease with which a mentally ill person can get a gun to harm themselves or others IS. That's what the pro-gun lobby wants to deflect from with all this "concern over mentally ill people".

[ThreePi]

18 minutes ago, ALIEN-gunner said:

 The killer, David Katz, was a mentally ill awkward young man who always kept to himself. He was not mentally able to accept defeat so after he lost and listened to the trash talk left the pizza place, went into his car where his handgun was, picked it up and went back into the pizza place and started shooting then shot himself. A true nutjob.  

 

Now people can call for the ban on guns or whatever just like they do when any reported news gets aired like this but that won't stop people with mentally ill issues. They'll just find other ways to murder others. Incidently in Chicago, a city with the most strick gun control laws, has the most cases of gun violence. 

 

The facts are that the overwhelming majority of US citizens who own guns don't do shit like this because they aren't criminals or mentally disturbed. Normal people don't murder. So trying to take their guns away, if it could even be done in anyone here's lifetime, would just be a bandaid fix for the root cause which is mental illness. 

 

 

1. Chicago does not have the most strict gun laws in the country.

2. The majority of guns that are used in crimes in Chicago come from other states. Indiana is an hour drive from the south side of Chicago and has some of the weakest gun laws in the nation.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/glanton/ct-met-gun-control-chicago-dahleen-glanton-20171003-story.html

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, ThreePi said:

 

1. Chicago does not have the most strict gun laws in the country.

2. The majority of guns that are used in crimes in Chicago come from other states. Indiana is an hour drive from the south side of Chicago and has some of the weakest gun laws in the nation.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/glanton/ct-met-gun-control-chicago-dahleen-glanton-20171003-story.html

 

I know the majority of guns in New Jersey come from Pennsylvania and the Southern States... Law enforcement calls it "the iron corridor". 

[osxmatt]

12 minutes ago, ALIEN-gunner said:

I know and that wasn't my argument. They will do less damage without guns but they still will do damage. It's preventable too but mental illness is something that's harder to deal with so it's often ignored in favor of weak stop gaps. Not all people with mental illness are killers but those that kill are mentally ill in some way including criminals. 

 

Are you really saying that all killers are mentally ill?

 

That is demonstrably false.

[marioandsonic]

As someone who has a mental disorder, I absolutely despise the notion that mental illness is the root of gun violence.  Not only is it not true (the majority of mass shooters are/were not mentally ill), but it also serves to demonize those that have mental illness.  As if we all need to walk on eggshells around them, otherwise they'll snap and pull off the next Columbine.  Talking about mental health is already such a difficult subject in this country, and notions like those aren't helping.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Didn't the NRA fight Obama's ban on mentally ill people being able to purchase guns? Didn't Trump repeal that executive order?

 

https://www.aclu.org/blog/disability-rights/gun-control-laws-should-be-fair

 

Here is an ACLU article in defense of the removal of that particular Obama executive action. It’s been mischaracterized a ton.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, sblfilms said:

 

https://www.aclu.org/blog/disability-rights/gun-control-laws-should-be-fair

 

Here is an ACLU article in defense of the removal of that particular Obama executive action. It’s been mischaracterized a ton.

 

I understand their opposition... I just don't agree with it. If you can't manage your bank account then you shouldn't have a gun. Sorry. In Florida, they ruled that a blind man should be able to own a gun because banning him from having one is "discrimination".

[ALIEN-gunner]

I don't believe people who commit terrible murders like this are mentally stable. They are mentally ill. Now not all mentally ill sufferers are violent to others, many are violent to themselves but most are non violent. The mentally ill aren't all murderers but all murderers are mentally ill. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, ALIEN-gunner said:

I don't believe people who commit terrible murders like this are mentally stable. They are mentally ill. Now not all mentally ill people sufferers are violent to others, many are violent to themselves but most are non violent. The mentally ill aren't all murderers but all murderers are mentally ill. 

 

Yeah that's just not true... are you throwing your personal feelings on what constitutes mental illness? Because by your definition, NO murderer should go to jail for murder. 

[osxmatt]

4 minutes ago, ALIEN-gunner said:

I don't believe people who commit terrible murders like this are mentally stable. They are mentally ill. Now not all mentally ill sufferers are violent to others, many are violent to themselves but most are non violent. The mentally ill aren't all murderers but all murderers are mentally ill. 

 

Again, this is demonstrably false.

[Keyser_Soze]

6 hours ago, mclumber1 said:

So I'm not sure what gun control law would have actually prevented this guy from doing what he did. 

 

And that's basically the problem. You can throw as many laws and regulations at someone you can but at the end of the day they own an apparatus meant to kill and if they snap afterward there's nothing you can do to stop it.

 

Unless the regulation is "no one gets a gun" this will keep happening.

[ALIEN-gunner]

11 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Yeah that's just not true... are you throwing your personal feelings on what constitutes mental illness? Because by your definition, NO murderer should go to jail for murder. 

No, I think they should be sent to some correctional facility to be actually corrected instead of some temporary cage that does absolutely nothing but spit out criminals as fast as they receive them. But that's another issue, 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

14 minutes ago, ALIEN-gunner said:

I don't believe people who commit terrible murders like this are mentally stable. They are mentally ill. Now not all mentally ill sufferers are violent to others, many are violent to themselves but most are non violent. The mentally ill aren't all murderers but all murderers are mentally ill. 

No.

 

No.

 

Just, no.

[skillzdadirecta]

3 minutes ago, ALIEN-gunner said:

No, I think they should be sent to some correctional facility to be actually corrected instead of some temorary cage that does absolutely nothing but spit out criminals as fast as they receive them. But that's another issue, 

 

Ok... but you DO understand that not all murderers are mentally ill, right? Not by the clinical definition OR the legal definition. That just isn't true.

[ALIEN-gunner]

2 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

No.

 

No.

 

Just, no.

Okay, you convinced me.

[CastlevaniaNut18]

Just now, ALIEN-gunner said:

Okay, you convinced me.

I mean, if you believe someone so completely false, I have no idea what else to say. 

 

It's like if you told me the sky is brown, what else can i say but "nope."

[PaladinSolo]

Like i said earlier, its just a parade of fucking stupid.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, PaladinSolo said:

Like i said earlier, its just a parade of fucking stupid.

 

and this is why trying to reason with the "other side" is a futile endeavor when it comes to this issue in particular... facts are subjective in today's 'Murica.

[mclumber1]

29 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Ok... but you DO understand that not all murderers are mentally ill, right? Not by the clinical definition OR the legal definition. That just isn't true.

 

I would say that the gang banger who just did a drive by against a rival gang is not mentally ill.  However, a person who goes into a place of worship, sits with the congregation for an hour, and then proceeds to murder 12 of them is absolutely mentally ill.  I don't see why saying most serial killers, mass murderers, and mass shooters, are mentally ill is such a bad thing to say.