Shooting at Jacksonville leaves 4 dead, 11 injured

[CastlevaniaNut18]

1 minute ago, mclumber1 said:

 

I would say that the gang banger who just did a drive by against a rival gang is not mentally ill.  However, a person who goes into a place of worship, sits with the congregation for an hour, and then proceeds to murder 12 of them is absolutely mentally ill.  I don't see why saying most serial killers, mass murderers, and mass shooters, are mentally ill is such a bad thing to say.  

Because they aren't. Saying they're mentally ill implies they're in some way not fully responsible for their actions. Some people just totally lack empathy and a moral compass. Some people are just bad. 

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, mclumber1 said:

 

I would say that the gang banger who just did a drive by against a rival gang is not mentally ill.  However, a person who goes into a place of worship, sits with the congregation for an hour, and then proceeds to murder 12 of them is absolutely mentally ill.  I don't see why saying most serial killers, mass murderers, and mass shooters, are mentally ill is such a bad thing to say.  

 

Ummm because there are both clinical and legal definitions to the term "mentally ill". Throwing it around without understanding that confuses the issue and helps no one. Some of these spree shooters are mentally ill... most aren't. Legally or medically as has been stated several times in this thread.

[CastlevaniaNut18]

Yep, there are criteria to meet the legal and medical definition of mentally ill. Just because you can't understand why someone would do something so evil doesn't mean you get to make a medical diagnosis to explain away the behavior. 

[mclumber1]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Ummm because there are both clinical and legal definitions to the term "mentally ill". Throwing it around without understanding that confuses the issue and helps no one. Some of these spree shooters are mentally ill... most aren't. Legally or medically as has been stated several times in this thread.

 

I know I am no psychologist, but I just can't wrap my head around how someone can justify in their own head, without being mentally ill, that they need to kill scores of people.  Whether that is methodically over a period of years, or in a near instant with a gun, or can of gasoline and a match,  it just perplexes me how people can just wave off any hint of mental instability.  "Yeah the Navy Yard shooter murdered 12 people with a shotgun, but he's totes mentally stable". 

[mclumber1]

2 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

Yep, there are criteria to meet the legal and medical definition of mentally ill. Just because you can't understand why someone would do something so evil doesn't mean you get to make a medical diagnosis to explain away the behavior. 

 

There is a HUUUUUGE disconnect in this thread when it comes to mental illness.  On one hand, there are people ITT who are arguing that people who can't manage their money are mentally ill and should have their civil rights revoked. On the other hand, the same people are arguing that a person who murders a dozen people is mentally stable. 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

Just now, mclumber1 said:

 

There is a HUUUUUGE disconnect in this thread when it comes to mental illness.  On one hand, there are people ITT who are arguing that people who can't manage their money are mentally ill and should have their civil rights revoked. On the other hand, the same people are arguing that a person who murders a dozen people is mentally stable. 

Wat

[skillzdadirecta]

9 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

I know I am no psychologist, but I just can't wrap my head around how someone can justify in their own head, without being mentally ill, that they need to kill scores of people.  Whether that is methodically over a period of years, or in a near instant with a gun, or can of gasoline and a match,  it just perplexes me how people can just wave off any hint of mental instability.  "Yeah the Navy Yard shooter murdered 12 people with a shotgun, but he's totes mentally stable". 

 

Because a diagnosis of mentally illness isn't based on how you "feel" about a person's actions. As @CastlevaniaNut18 said, there are legal and clinical criteria that must be met in order to adjudicate someone mentally ill. Some people are just evil mother fuckers.

 

7 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

There is a HUUUUUGE disconnect in this thread when it comes to mental illness.  On one hand, there are people ITT who are arguing that people who can't manage their money are mentally ill and should have their civil rights revoked. On the other hand, the same people are arguing that a person who murders a dozen people is mentally stable. 

 

Oh for fuck's sake... a person who has been adjudicated (again, legally and clinically) as being unable to handle something as basic as their fucking finances should NOT be allowed to own a gun. That's right I said it and I stand by it. On the other hand just pulling a diagnosis out of one's ass and saying "all spree shooters" are mentally ill  no corroborating evidence other than one "feelings" is not correct. My stances are not opposed to each other because I don't think of guns as toys. This is NOT rocket science... guns are dangerous instruments and people should be required to demonstrate that they can handle one safely and responsibly before we just give them out to folks. Jesus Christ...

[mclumber1]

3 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said:

Wat

 

skill said:

I understand their opposition... I just don't agree with it. If you can't manage your bank account then you shouldn't have a gun. Sorry. In Florida, they ruled that a blind man should be able to own a gun because banning him from having one is "discrimination".

 

If we're saying that even people who can't manage their expenses are mentally ill, what does that say about someone who murders scores of people? 

 

[CastlevaniaNut18]

2 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

skill said:

 

If we're saying that even people who can't manage their expenses are mentally ill, what does that say about someone who murders scores of people? 

 

What skillz said has zero bearing the the reality of what I said. 

[skillzdadirecta]

7 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

skill said:

 

If we're saying that even people who can't manage their expenses are mentally ill, what does that say about someone who murders scores of people? 

 

 

OK... deep breath... you do realize that those folks have been determined, legally and medically, to be unable to manage their finances right? That's what that executive order was about... people who had to have a third party managing their financial affairs because they themselves were deemed unable to do so (that's my understanding) and my point is that if someone has been determined LEGALLY to be unable to manage their finances, then it's not too much of a reach to believe that they probably shouldn't own a gun.

 

Also mental illness is only ONE of the factors that determines this... physical impairments factor in too and was also one of the reasons someone would be determined unable to manage their finances. Which changes my opinion not one bit.

[Kal-El814]

15 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

I know I am no psychologist, but I just can't wrap my head around how someone can justify in their own head, without being mentally ill, that they need to kill scores of people.  Whether that is methodically over a period of years, or in a near instant with a gun, or can of gasoline and a match,  it just perplexes me how people can just wave off any hint of mental instability.  "Yeah the Navy Yard shooter murdered 12 people with a shotgun, but he's totes mentally stable". 

Mass shootings don't make up the majority of gun violence.

[mclumber1]

Just now, Kal-El814 said:

Mass shootings don't make up the majority of gun violence.

 

I know!  I think I mentioned that earlier in this thread.  95% of all gun violence can be attributed to societal issues we have: the war on drugs, gang activity, poverty, and education.  When some guy gets shot on the streets of Baltimore, it's like due to one of the issues I noted above, and appropriate social policies can be taken to reduce them.  

[skillzdadirecta]

3 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

I know!  I think I mentioned that earlier in this thread.  95% of all gun violence can be attributed to societal issues we have: the war on drugs, gang activity, poverty, and education.  When some guy gets shot on the streets of Baltimore, it's like due to one of the issues I noted above, and appropriate social policies can be taken to reduce them.  

 

Are you gonna acknowledge that you either misunderstood or misrepresented my position in this thread?

[mclumber1]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Are you gonna acknowledge that you either misunderstood or misrepresented my position in this thread?

 

Never.  

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, mclumber1 said:

 

Never.  

 

 

Fair enough 

[mclumber1]

I think we are going to have disagreements on this issue.  And that's fine, I would hope.  We're civil about it.  Now that most conservative trolls have been banned or left the boards, SOMEONE needs to give a little resistance to the circlejerk that can develop from time to time.  

[Guest]

 

8 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

I know!  I think I mentioned that earlier in this thread.  95% of all gun violence can be attributed to societal issues we have: the war on drugs, gang activity, poverty, and education.  When some guy gets shot on the streets of Baltimore, it's like due to one of the issues I noted above, and appropriate social policies can be taken to reduce them.  

 

Other western countries with harsh drug laws don’t have American levels of gun violence.

 

Other western countries with gang activity don’t have American levels of gun violence.

 

Other western countries with impoverished areas don’t have American levels of gun violence.

 

Come on, man.

[skillzdadirecta]

2 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

I think we are going to have disagreements on this issue.  And that's fine, I would hope.  We're civil about it.  Now that most conservative trolls have been banned or left the boards, SOMEONE needs to give a little resistance to the circlejerk that can develop from time to time.  

 

Hey I hear you... and believe me I am not a "ban the second amendment/ no one should be allowed to own a gun" guy. I just don't think that it should be easier to get a gun than it is to get a car. People SHOULD be able to lawfully own guns... but they should prove that they are capable of owning those guns responsibly.

[mclumber1]

1 minute ago, sblfilms said:

 

 

Other western countries with harsh drug laws don’t have American levels of gun violence.

 

Other western countries with gang activity don’t have American levels of gun violence.

 

Other western countries with impoverished areas don’t have American levels of gun violence.

 

Come on, man.

 

Most of Latin America (Western countries, AFAIK) have harsh drug laws, have rampant gang activity, and definitely have impoverished areas, have gun violence exceeding that of America.  And they all have very strict gun control.  

[skillzdadirecta]

2 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Most of Latin America (Western countries, AFAIK) have harsh drug laws, have rampant gang activity, and definitely have impoverished areas, have gun violence exceeding that of America.  And they all have very strict gun control.  

 

Come one man... are you talking about border line Narco states? Most of their guns violence comes from the drug trade which WE fuel... or and most of their guns come from US.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Most of Latin America (Western countries, AFAIK) have harsh drug laws, have rampant gang activity, and definitely have impoverished areas, have gun violence exceeding that of America.  And they all have very strict gun control.  

 

Very little of Latin America could be considered western, if any at all.

[PaladinSolo]

4 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Most of Latin America (Western countries, AFAIK) have harsh drug laws, have rampant gang activity, and definitely have impoverished areas, have gun violence exceeding that of America.  And they all have very strict gun control.  

Hey guys, these countries that barely have a functioning government are terrible.

[mclumber1]

1 minute ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Come one man... are you talking about border line Narco states? Most of their guns violence comes from the drug trade which WE fuel... or and most of their guns come from US.

 

Yeah.  The drug war has been disastrous for all the countries involved.  Crime is fueled by the war both here in the United States and in Latin America.  Latin America wasn't nearly this violent prior to the war on drugs (and of course, the US getting involved in toppling governments there).  As far as where the guns come from, I can't find it right now, but I swear that I read that most, or at least a majority of guns that are used by the cartels and gangs of Latin America are from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union.  

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Also, Latin America likely gets their guns from Americans who have cheap and easy access to guns, or as an effect of the drug trade or corruption

[Jason]

Just now, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Also, Latin America likely gets their guns from Americans who have cheap and easy access to guns, or as an effect of the drug trade or corruption

 

They get their guns Fast and Furiously.

[skillzdadirecta]

6 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Yeah.  The drug war has been disastrous for all the countries involved.  Crime is fueled by the war both here in the United States and in Latin America.  Latin America wasn't nearly this violent prior to the war on drugs (and of course, the US getting involved in toppling governments there).  As far as where the guns come from, I can't find it right now, but I swear that I read that most, or at least a majority of guns that are used by the cartels and gangs of Latin America are from Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union.  

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/12/462781469/in-mexico-tens-of-thousands-of-illegal-guns-come-from-the-u-s

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/07/illegal-guns-fuel-mexicos-drug-cartel-violence-180713130644228.html

 

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/border-issues/2018/02/06/u-s-guns-used-majority-crimes-mexico-center-american-progress-report-says/301238002/

[Jason]

 

[Jason]

 

[DarkStar189]

Did you guys notice in that twitch stream video, right before the shooting starts when they are showing the 2 players sitting there, you can see a red laser dot go on the chest of the dude in the red sweatshirt? Totally missed that originally until I saw it mentioned online. 

[johnny]

I’m sure we can agree to some more gun control if @mclumber1gets his silencer 

[MarSolo]

20 minutes ago, DarkStar189 said:

Did you guys notice in that twitch stream video, right before the shooting starts when they are showing the 2 players sitting there, you can see a red laser dot go on the chest of the dude in the red sweatshirt? Totally missed that originally until I saw it mentioned online. 

 

Yeah, I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread (or somewhere else entirely). It's really eerie.

[Jason]

 

[Keyser_Soze]

11 minutes ago, MarSolo said:

 

Yeah, I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread (or somewhere else entirely). It's really eerie.

 

Bacon posted a gif of it it's like on the first page of the thread.

Also mentioned in the video I posted before the thread turned into a gun debate.

[DarkStar189]

Somehow I missed that. Crazy stuff man.

 

My son entered the public school system for the first time today starting 1st grade.  Obviously I'm not going to drive myself crazy with worry about school shootings and such. Shootings these days can happen anywhere and anytime. But its a shame parents these days have to have it on their minds. 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

2 hours ago, mclumber1 said:

 

I know!  I think I mentioned that earlier in this thread.  95% of all gun violence can be attributed to societal issues we have: the war on drugs, gang activity, poverty, and education.  When some guy gets shot on the streets of Baltimore, it's like due to one of the issues I noted above, and appropriate social policies can be taken to reduce them.  

Appropriate social policies could be taken if the same people who vehemently oppose gun restrictions didn't also oppose spending money on social programs, other than throwing armed police at the issue.