Microsoft Xbox Series X | S OT - Power Your Dreams, update: FTC case unredacted documents leaked, including XSX mid-generation refresh, new gyro/haptic-enabled controller, and next-generation plans for 2028

[The def star]

Just now, Spork3245 said:

TBF, hardware accelerated doesn’t mean there’s not a performance cost, so, the GPU difference will most likely affect RT performance. I'm not sure if that’s what you were implying, though.

I'm saying the difference in GPU will mostly affect resolution. MS claims the hardware accelerated ray tracing will be the same for both the Series S and Series X. What hardware accelerated means I'm not sure but I believe that the Series S will be capable of ray tracing in some capacity at 1080p to 1440p resolutions.

[skillzdadirecta]

4 hours ago, JPDunks4 said:

https://www.dolby.com/gaming?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=gamingindolby&utm_term=edl&utm_content=xbox-announcement

Time to upgrade my reciever.

[Spork3245]

Just now, The def star said:

I'm saying the difference in GPU will mostly affect resolution. MS claims the hardware accelerated ray tracing will be the same for both the Series S and Series X. What hardware accelerated means I'm not sure but I believe that the Series S will be capable of ray tracing in some capacity at 1080p to 1440p resolutions.

Hardware accelerated means it’s rendered via the hardware and isn’t rendered via software. ie: the hardware is designed to do the calculations on its own which is much faster. Both an RTX 2060 and 2080 have hardware ray tracing, the 2080 performs better than the 2060 in RT. A 3070 and 2080 Ti perform the same without RT, with RT enabled a 3070 is much faster than a 2080 Ti.

What does this mean for the X vs S? No clue yet!

[The def star]

3 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Hardware accelerated means it’s rendered via the hardware and isn’t rendered via software. ie: the hardware is designed to do the calculations on its own which is much faster. Both an RTX 2060 and 2080 have hardware ray tracing, the 2080 performs better than the 2060 in RT. A 3070 and 2080 Ti perform the same without RT, with RT enabled a 3070 is much faster than a 2080 Ti.

What does this mean for the X vs S? No clue yet!

Does resolution affect ray tracing performance?

[Keyser_Soze]

3 minutes ago, The def star said:

Does resolution affect ray tracing performance?

 

Long story short, yes.

 

Remember when Quake RTX came out and even a 2080ti couldn't run it at 4k 60?

[The def star]

Just now, Keyser_Soze said:

 

Long story short, yes.

 

Remember when Quake RTX came out and even a 2080ti couldn't run it at 4k 60?

Then the Series S should be able to do some ray tracing. I can already see devs putting in a performance mode in which a game will run at 120fps at 1440p but no ray tracing and a graphics mode where it will have ray tracing, 60/30 fps but at 1080p. But only time will tell.

[SimpleG]

15 minutes ago, The def star said:

Then the Series S should be able to do some ray tracing. I can already see devs putting in a performance mode in which a game will run at 120fps at 1440p but no ray tracing and a graphics mode where it will have ray tracing, 60/30 fps but at 1080p. But only time will tell.

I think a more reasonable 1440p at 60 with no RT and 1080p at 30 with. 

[The def star]

3 minutes ago, SimpleG said:

I think a more reasonable 1440p at 60 with no RT and 1080p at 30 with. 

I can see that. Will definitely depend on the game. 

[SimpleG]

Just now, The def star said:

Will definitely depend on the game. 

Absolutely

Games like Tomb Raider at 1440p hover in that 60-90 range with a 2080ti while FC5 maintain well over a 100+, either way it seems like a fantastic system and that price is ridiculous. 

[Ominous]

1440p? Ya'll playing consoles on pc monitors? 

[SimpleG]

Just now, Ominous said:

1440p? Ya'll playing consoles on pc monitors? 

Yup

[SimpleG]

My TV does 1440P 120 so I can use either 

[legend]

12 minutes ago, Ominous said:

1440p? Ya'll playing consoles on pc monitors? 

 

The p makes it a little funny, but pretty sure they just mean that's the target native rendering resolution which then will be either upscaled to 4K or down sampled to 1080p. Similar to how so many games this gen rendered at "900p" (or whatever funky resolution the game used) upscaled to 1080p.

 

I'm also skeptical that many games will actually render at 1440p on an Series S, but I would expect the above was their intention.

[Brian]

One of the most common questions I've gotten is if the round stand on the bottom of the Series X is removable, in the event you choose to lay it on its side.

I couldn't find a way to take it off, and I just confirmed with Microsoft that it is indeed not removable. So just FYI!

— Ryan McCaffrey (@DMC_Ryan) September 10, 2020

[Keyser_Soze]

The Sex looks really big.

[Keyser_Soze]

Max likes it

 

 

[Brian]

[AbsolutSurgen]

The only Ray Tracing demo I'm aware of is the Minecraft demo -- which SeX ran at 1080p ~30 fps -- so SeS should be able to run it at ~620p.

12 hours ago, The def star said:

I'm saying the difference in GPU will mostly affect resolution. MS claims the hardware accelerated ray tracing will be the same for both the Series S and Series X. What hardware accelerated means I'm not sure but I believe that the Series S will be capable of ray tracing in some capacity at 1080p to 1440p resolutions.

My 4-year old GTX-1070 can technically do ray tracing.  But I'd never want to take the performance hit.

[Spork3245]

21 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

The only Ray Tracing demo I'm aware of is the Minecraft demo -- which SeX ran at 1080p ~30 fps -- so SeS should be able to run it at ~620p.

My 4-year old GTX-1070 can technically do ray tracing.  But I'd never want to take the performance hit.

TBF, the GTX cards are brute forcing RT via drivers and DX12 (software) and not dedicated hardware. It’s like how my old GeForce2 Pro could run Pixel/Vertex shaders in software-based demos (poorly) despite not having hardware support.

Or am I mistaken and the 10xx series does have some type of hardware support?

[AbsolutSurgen]

31 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

TBF, the GTX cards are brute forcing RT via drivers and DX12 (software) and not dedicated hardware. It’s like how my old GeForce2 Pro could run Pixel/Vertex shaders in software-based demos (poorly) despite not having hardware support.

Or am I mistaken and the 10xx series does have some type of hardware support?

RTX cards do ray tracing through dedicated cores.  GTX runs it through the shader cores.   Rumours suggest RDNA2 does not have dedicated cores, but runs Ray Tracing through the shader cores in a TBD way.  Since hardware acceleration doesn't have a very robust definition (one could argue that anything that runs on a GPU core ilo a CPU core is hardware accelerated), we don't really know how significant the RDNA2 RT hardware acceleration is.  I guess we will learn in October/November.

[Spork3245]

3 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

RTX cards do ray tracing through dedicated cores.  GTX runs it through the shader cores.   Rumours suggest RDNA2 does not have dedicated cores, but runs Ray Tracing through the shader cores in a TBD way.  Since hardware acceleration doesn't have a very robust definition (one could argue that anything that runs on a GPU core ilo a CPU core is hardware accelerated), we don't really know how significant the RDNA2 RT hardware acceleration is.  I guess we will learn in October/November.

I always used “hardware accelerated” as meaning that there was hardware dedicated to rendering the effects in question. That may not be “correct”, though.  

[Duderino]

Beyond the 4TF GPU, RAM is likely to be a limiting factor for Raytracing in the Series S.  ID’s principal engine programmer elaborates:

Also "it always scaled on PC" is nonsense. Every AAA game in the past decade or so has their assets made once so they run on min spec. Increasing sample counts a bit here and there for high settings isn't what you could truly have done with more power. Min spec matters.

— Axel Gneiting (@axelgneiting) September 10, 2020

[AbsolutSurgen]

4 minutes ago, Duderino said:

Beyond the 4TF GPU, RAM is likely to be a limiting factor for Raytracing in the Series S.  ID’s principal engine programmer elaborates:

What does Axel know?  Oh yeah, he is an engine programmer at a AAA studio...

 

 

[Spork3245]

5 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

What does Axel know?  Oh yeah, he is an engine programmer at a AAA studio...

 

 

 

Yea, I was actually surprised to see consoles stay at 16gb RAM. I really expected 32gb+ this gen.

[Spork3245]

I don't know if this is legit

[AbsolutSurgen]

3 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

Yea, I was actually surprised to see consoles stay at 16gb RAM. I really expected 32gb+ this gen.

Historical trends have a generational leap of ~x8 for both memory and processing power.

3 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

I don't know if this is legit

Looks right.  I think a 3090 is bigger than a SeX.

[Duderino]

It’s going to be interesting to see exactly how developers approach the Series S ports as the gen goes on.

 

The velocity architecture and lower res texture delivery will obviously help, but the size of geometry, lighting, animation, and audio data will go up as well.  I could see higher compression for these assets becoming a necessity for devs that don’t treat the S as their baseline.

[Brian]

Current gen consoles will be supported for 2 years which will allow the S to be supported. After that, it will transition into a XCloud machine and an updated S will be released. Microsoft will have a trade in program probably for the old S. 

[Brian]

Or maybe AMD announces their own DLSS  soon that is compatible with next gen that allows the S to survive longer. Who knows at this point 

[crispy4000]

15 minutes ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

Or maybe AMD announces their own DLSS  soon that is compatible with next gen that allows the S to survive longer. Who knows at this point 

There are reconstruction techniques available in the here and now though, on both Series X and S.  Series X games should start relying on those (or new ones) at some point this gen, especially if devs go RT crazy.

[AbsolutSurgen]

8 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

There are reconstruction techniques available in the here and now though, on both Series X and S.  Series X games should start relying on those (or new ones) at some point this gen, especially if devs go RT crazy.

Upscaling techniques (or "reconstruction" techniques) have been used for years on both PS4 and Xbox One.  They are nothing new.

DLSS 2.0, however, brings it to a whole new level.

[crispy4000]

13 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Upscaling techniques (or "reconstruction" techniques) have been used for years on both PS4 and Xbox One.  They are nothing new.

DLSS 2.0, however, brings it to a whole new level.

 

Well, yeah.  But it needed to be to offset the hit raytracing takes on performance.  I've said it before, but Control is a crucial litmus test as to where these consoles' GPU limitations will be.

 

Is a 4Tflop RDNA2 chip enough for raytracing in a game like that, at a reasonable reconstructed resolution and framerate?  We'll find out soon.

[AbsolutSurgen]

 

 

[JPDunks4]

The Xbox Series S will play the Xbox One S versions of BC games, not the Xbox One X with enhancements.  SInce it's a 1440p machine and not a 4k machine, it makes some sense, but still a big miss.

 

As far as I know, the One X version of many games are the only one that offers the Performance vs 4k Modes, so if it's simply running the One S versions, are you stuck with no option to maximize performance over resolution, or visa versa.

[Spork3245]

Is the controller for the S/X different than an Xbone controller?