Movies ~*Colin Trevorrow's Star Wars: Episode IX - Duel of the Fates OT*~

[Kal-El814]

2 minutes ago, EternallDarkness said:

 

Don't believe it is explicitly stated they are twins until RoTJ, but it was my assumption from the start, given that Ben says he and his sister's birth were hidden from Vader. Even without knowing the backstory I couldn't see multiple births over multiple years being hidden from him. 

Luke and Leia were in no way intended to be siblings until RotJ was being written. Early drafts of ESB have Vader taunting Luke about how Leia wanted to be with Han and not with him. And you know, the mountain of other evidence to suggest they were never supposed to be siblings.

[Kal-El814]

Also

 

[skillzdadirecta]

4 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

Nah, Episode 8's craft is through the roof and is objectively a great movie.

 

In fact, 7 is quite good as well. That it didn't stick the landing doesn't bother me as much: I can watch through Episode 8 and actually get a great end to the story.

7 is still a fun movie. 9 is the weakest of the bunch and tarnishes the conclusion of the story in a vain attempt to appease the weak minded... but it still has its moments. 

[GeneticBlueprint]

Striking down heyyoudvd has made his terrible Star Wars opinions more powerful than we could possibly imagine.

[SuperSpreader]

How did Luke not sense Papa Palpa was alive building a massive army 

[skillzdadirecta]

5 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

Luke telling Yoda, "THOSE ARE THE SACRED JEDI TEXTS?!" seemed like a great Impatient Luke-Yoda moment, though.   

Hamill's line reading is great in that scene too.

[GeneticBlueprint]

4 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

Film Critic Hulk has a great write-up about TLJ (which he loved) and the fanbase's obsession with the franchise. And he includes himself in the, "Why do we care so damn much about Star Wars?" crowd, so it's not a knock. This part sticks out:

 

This was a great read. Thanks. I think the part where he goes over the arcs and then saves Luke's for later in the story is the best though.

 

Quote

To wit, a person I dare not link to, who has basically been operating a full-scale harassment campaign at everyone involved in the movie, wrote the following about what happened to Luke: “There are children now dealing with bereavement, mourning their hero, and they don’t understand. Their parents have to explain it to them, and they can’t. There are sick children (and adults) who needed an escape, and hope. But @RianJohnson mocks them. #TheLastJedi. #StarWars.”

 

The language he uses is so telling. Even if he is somehow speaking about real kids (and while I like giving people the benefit of the doubt, I don’t think he is, to be honest), it’s a clear projection of all his childhood hopes and pathological hurt when it comes to what this movie was really trying to with the character…

 

So, yes, let’s talk about Old Man Luke.

 

It was surely a shock for a generation of young people, who intrinsically identified with Luke Skywalker, to suddenly see “themselves” as a cranky, cynical hermit who ran away from the damage they caused the world. If you wanted to imagine yourself as a Jedi god, that can be a rude awakening (or is that the most god-like thing a person can do? Dumb thought bomb!). But, of course, some fans were uncomfortable with this. So, of course, they first fell back to the “logic” of how this action didn’t seem to make sense. Never mind the fact that Luke literally did the same exact thing that Yoda did, but Yoda’s introduction in Empire took the audience’s dramatic understanding from hermit to Jedi master, not the other way around. They then threw out a million other fan fiction ideas about what to do with that character, many of which seemed to deal with him secretly building a weapon (you know, like bad guys do) or training to BECOME EVEN MORE BADASS THAN KYLO AT THE FORCE. The juvenile instincts of these choices are telling when it’s all about indulging your power fantasy. But the simple truth is there is no way to come into this movie and tell a story about Luke hiding away without getting into this kind of fault-laden characterization.

 

More importantly, there is no telling that is more appropriate.

 

Old Man Luke is a human being stuck in the cycle of regret, pain and self-hatred. He took his nephew under his wing and tried to do his best in raising him, and in the moment where he was supposed to show the most love, he showed the most fear. The most difficult part of raising a troubled child is that sometimes all it can take is one bad moment to confirm their worst fears. Kids with abandonment and anger issues only know the fear of abandonment, and so they will look for it at the first chance they get. For Luke, the regret of propagating this cycle haunts him. Everything he fought to overcome (in the original trilogy) he has created anew. The failure of his pain is so immense. He has closed himself off to life itself. Like any full-scale depression, he is a dead man walking. His only purpose is guarding the relics of a Jedi past he can barely think of, and beating himself up. He denies Rey. But he denies her not because he doesn’t want her to succeed, but because he does not want her to feel the pain he feels now. And if he lets her in, Rey may propagate his cursed cycle. And so, he can only deny and look into the shame of his past.

Which is exactly why an old friend shows up in Yoda, to tell him it’s “time for you to look past a pile of old books.” God, it’s such a beautiful scene. He evokes so much we know about this character. “Skywalker, still looking to the horizon.” Mournfully, Luke admits his failures, admitting “I was weak, unwise.” And Yoda tells him the one thing he’s never seemed to learn: that failure is the greatest teacher of all, and it’s something we must accept that we pass down along with strengths. And then, as they look at the tree of the past burning, Yoda echoes the most beautiful statement yet, something that can be only the truest comfort: “we are what they grow beyond.”

 

There were some who argued this messaging was “just” meta commentary about the fandom, with comments like, “The books are the extended universe!” or, “it’s about old Star Wars fans needing to let go!” and other such simple 1:1 symbolic ratios. But the reason so much of this scene seems to apply to fandom is because it is the kind of humane insight that applies to everything about adulthood, parentage and the proverbial passing of the torch. It’s a gorgeous statement about how we grow up and relate to the world, along with how we much we acknowledge our failings in the realities we hath wrought (if anything, the messaging can double for a lot of Baby Boomers who were a little more than Luke’s age in 1977). There’s so much beautiful messaging here, but also a stark change in his character’s purpose.

 

Luke in this film is not really a power fantasy, he’s a mirror to our complete selves. A mirror to all the darker truths of what adults carry around inside. But it’s precisely the act of Yoda showing him this mirror that helps Luke accept how he has changed, and therefore come back into “himself.” And so when Luke finds his courage to face his demons? It results in the most rousing sequence of the film, and maybe even the entire series.

 

Luke’s transcendent finale battle with Kylo is probably the single most badass thing I’ve ever seen in these films. Luke literally heads off an entire squad of AT-AT walkers, has a tense samurai-esque lightsaber battle with Kylo, and then it’s revealed to be an incredible ruse of force projection from across the galaxy, thus rendering it an incredible act of Jedi-like pacifism to boot. He, like so many in the film, wins not by fighting what he hates, but by saving the people he loves. And having used every ounce of the force within him, he stares into the sun, the boy who always looked to the horizon for what was next, now simply closing his eyes and feeling where he is now…and he lets go.

I got literal goosebumps. For all the deep want of Luke being a god, it is with the most Jesus-like notions of sacrifice that he feels the most human. But I was talking with aforementioned bartender about this scene and he kept harping on “the logic” of it (same goes with Yoda summoning lightning). After getting through all that nonsense and down to the feeling beyond it, it came down to the fact he was already “out” on Luke’s portrayal and looking for excuses. When I made the argument about all the beautiful things his character arc was doing he just exclaimed, “O.K., a bunch of nice messages! So what?!” This brings us to the whole dang crux.

 

He then really puts a nice pin on that whole thing

 

Quote

Because I think viewing a separation between indulgence and messaging is how we even see things like this in the first place. Because they’re not different. A power fantasy with rigid toxic views you already hold is the message of certain films; it just feels right to you. And when it doesn’t feel right? When it’s a bunch of things you’ll just dismiss as “nice messages” but can’t feel? Well, you are just belying the truth about what you really want movies to say and do. For me? I watched this film unfold and all those “nice messages” weren’t divorced from my dramatic experience of the film. They were part of character moments, oohs, aahs, cheers and tears that come with me experiencing the power of a story. With Luke, I saw so much of the pain of who I really am, not the projection of the man I wanted to be when I was a boy. And that has its own emotional kind of power that strikes you to your core.

 

I just love how he completely debunks every argument about the "logic" of whatever in TLJ. It's never about the "logic" because if it were then you'd hate all the original films too.

[GeneticBlueprint]

31 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Hamill's line reading is great in that scene too.

 

I was hoping he'd get a supporting actor nod from the Academy as an acknowledgement of his work with the character over 40 years. Johnson got a great performance out of him in TLJ.

[SaysWho?]

 

4 hours ago, EternallDarkness said:

I'm not denying it's been used that way before...constantly. It's a matter of pushing the suspension of disbelief beyond all reason. The stuff that happened in this latest trilogy wasn't just a minor incremental step beyond what we'd seen before. Leia finding Luke in Empire doesn't seem all that odd or supernatural or even force related if you happen to know any twins in real life, though of course that played it out as the force. For me I am just saying that it was way beyond what I was willing to accept. My rant doesn't include the crazy as story logic which seems to go from point A to G without ever hitting points B, C, D, E, or F  

 

The only reason it pushes anyone's disbelief is because you grew up with the OT, and despite how many ways the Force was expanded to get somebody out of trouble, only now that we're boring adults with no imaginations is expanding the use of the Force considered a joke or impossible!  

 

The Force complaints are so weird because it goes back to the same thing: people's "solutions" to movies are to remove conflict and tension, regardless as to how much they have to bend that that's not really what they're saying.  

 

It's literally to the point where Star Wars fans find it to be affront to their sensibilities that new powers could be introduced whatsoever that were in the OT despite the fact that the OT did it already in its own three movies.

 

A New Hope

• We know the Force exists but only knew vaguely that it's an energy that binds the universe together.
• But wait! Imperial troops stop our heroes, but Obi-Wan is able to use a Jedi mind trick to fool them into thinking that R2 isn't the droid they're looking for.
• Holy shit, Vader can choke someone without even touching them.
• And then, we see that if you use the Force, you can block laser fire with your laser sword, AND you don't even need to use your eyes to do it!
• Yo, Vader can just sense Obi-Wan is there (but strangely can't sense Luke even though they're related).
• Hold up, Obi-Wan can speak while dead. The Dead Speak!
• And using the Force allows Luke to fire into a tiny hole without the use of a computer.

 

The Empire Strikes Back

• Now we've established what The Force can do. WRONG! Because Luke is captured by a monster with no means of escaping, so Force Pull becomes a thing, allowing him to get his light saber and escape.
• Hold up, now Obi-Wan can show himself to Luke. 
• wtf, Vader can choke people THROUGH A SCREEN now? 
• Hold up, now Luke's ship, which he needs to escape, can be lifted from the water.
• Hold up, Obi-Wan can actually appear and walk and move even though he's dead. He doesn't even have to be alive to walk around and talk to Luke!
• But wait! Luke gets put into a freezing chamber but now he can jump REALLY high to get out of it.
• VADER can cause Force Hurricanes and throw a bunch of shit at Luke by just concentrating somewhat.
• Damn, Luke's dangling in Cloud City, but he can call out to Leia and she can hear him call out to her. HOW BLOODY CONVENIENT.

 

Return of the Jedi

• Okay, I guess that's it. Wait, Luke can flip in the air now?
• Hold up, NOW Vader can sense Luke is near while he's on the ship even though that wasn't a thing two movies ago?
• Luke can backflip?!
• Vader can sense that he has a sister by getting in Luke's thoughts?!
• WTF? LIGHTNING?!

 

In order to enjoy Star Wars, you have to realize that none of this is weirder than the PT (wtf, they can just zoom through space instead of running? Sidious can just throw things willy-nilly instead of focusing? Even Dooku has lightning powers? Why didn't Vader get lightning powers?) or ST. It became normalized for you through decades or soaking in every Star Wars movie rewatch after rewatch, it became normalized after we've soaked in every video and essay about the Star Wars films, it became normalized after just seeing that was a thing in a movie for 40 years.

 

You know what The Last Jedi actually does better than the OT, and there's a whole list of things it does better? Putting stakes and consequences behind a new Force Power. The big one that was introduced is set up, it's described, the consequences of its use are briefly mentioned but not lingered (so if you're paying attention to the script, you know that Luke is doomed after its use), and it's not a deus ex machina as Luke has to die in order to do it and with no way to use his ship. And he does it by using the Force like Yoda: “A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." He never even tried to hurt Kylo with it (and couldn't in order to save the illusion); it was used to save people, and there were actual clues to its use by his light saber and footprints and hair.

 

Kylo literally was fighting a ghost of his past using this Force Power in a phenomenal climax, and all the vocal minority can complain about is how they've never seen it before and is somehow an unrealistic use of a fictional religious force that has never established overarching rules for what the Force can do. It's one of the best uses of the Force that prompted applause from the audience when I watched the movie and everyone saw Luke concentrating far away. And thus, a well-written and dramatic use of the Force needs to go despite hurting a movie's conflict and story and character arcs so we can try to find a grounded approach to the fucking Force.

 

4 hours ago, EternallDarkness said:

 

Don't believe it is explicitly stated they are twins until RoTJ, but it was my assumption from the start, given that Ben says he and his sister's birth were hidden from Vader. Even without knowing the backstory I couldn't see multiple births over multiple years being hidden from him. 

 

Obi-Wan says his sister was hidden during ROTJ, not ESB, so we had no earthly idea that two kids were hidden from him as we didn't even know Vader was his father until the end of Empire. The only thing we knew then was that she could just sense him to save him. That was it. The only reason it doesn't push your suspension of disbelief is because you grew up with it, so now you just accept it as being normal, not even as a deus ex machina.

[skillzdadirecta]

10 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

 

The only reason it pushes anyone's disbelief is because you grew up with the OT, and despite how many ways the Force was expanded to get somebody out of trouble, only now that we're boring adults with no imaginations is expanding the use of the Force considered a joke or impossible!  

 

The Force complaints are so weird because it goes back to the same thing: people's "solutions" to movies are to remove conflict and tension, regardless as to how much they have to bend that that's not really what they're saying.  

 

It's literally to the point where Star Wars fans find it to be affront to their sensibilities that new powers could be introduced whatsoever that we're in the OT despite the fact that the OT did it already in its own three movies.

 

A New Hope

• We know the Force exists but only knew vaguely that it's an energy that binds the universe together.
• But wait! Imperial troops stop our heroes, but Obi-Wan is able to use a Jedi mind trick to fool them into thinking that R2 isn't the droid they're looking for.
• Holy shit, Vader can choke someone without even touching them.
• And then, we see that if you use the Force, you can block laser fire with your laser sword, AND you don't even need to use your eyes to do it!
• Yo, Vader can just sense Obi-Wan is there (but strangely can't sense Luke even though they're related).
• Hold up, Obi-Wan can speak while dead. The Dead Speak!
• And using the Force allows Luke to fire into a tiny hole without the use of a computer.

 

The Empire Strikes Back

• Now we've established what The Force can do. WRONG! Because Luke is captured by a monster with no means of escaping, so Force Pull becomes a thing, allowing him to get his light saber and escape.
• Hold up, now Obi-Wan can show himself to Luke. 
• wtf, Vader can choke people THROUGH A SCREEN now? 
• Hold up, now Luke's ship, which he needs to escape, can be lifted from the water.
• Hold up, Obi-Wan can actually appear and walk and move even though he's dead. He doesn't even have to be alive to walk around and talk to Luke!
• But wait! Luke gets put into a freezing chamber but now he can jump REALLY high to get out of it.
• VADER can cause Force Hurricanes and throw a bunch of shit at Luke by just concentrating somewhat (you forgot that one)
• Damn, Luke's dangling in Cloud City, but he can call out to Leia and she can hear him call out to her. HOW BLOODY CONVENIENT.

 

Return of the Jedi

• Okay, I guess that's it. Wait, Luke can flip in the air now?
• Hold up, NOW Vader can sense Luke is near while he's on the ship even though that wasn't a thing two movies ago?
• Luke can backflip?!
• Vader can sense that he has a sister by getting in Luke's thoughts?!
• WTF? LIGHTNING?!

 

In order to enjoy Star Wars, you have to realize that none of this is weirder than the PT (wtf, they can just zoom through space instead of running? Sidious can just throw things willy-nilly instead of focusing? Even Dooku has lightning powers? Why didn't Vader get lightning powers?) or ST. It became normalized for you through decades or soaking in every Star Wars movie rewatch after rewatch, it became normalized after we've soaked in every video and essay about the Star Wars films, it became normalized after just seeing that was a thing in a movie for 40 years.

 

You know what The Last Jedi actually does better than the OT, and there's a whole list of things it does better? Putting stakes and consequences behind a new Force Power. The big one that was introduced is set up, it's described, the consequences of its use are briefly mentioned but not lingered (so if you're paying attention to the script, you know that Luke is doomed after its use), and it's not a deus ex machina as Luke has to die in order to do it and with no way to use his ship. And he does it by using the Force like Yoda: “A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." He never even tried to hurt Kylo with it (and couldn't in order to save the illusion); it was used to save people, and there were actual clues to its use by his light saber and footprints and hair.

 

Kylo literally was fighting a ghost of his past using this Force Power in a phenomenal climax, and all the vocal minority can complain about is how they've never seen it before and is somehow an unrealistic use of a fictional religious force that has never established overarching rules for what the Force can do. It's one of the best uses of the Force that prompted applause from the audience when I watched the movie and everyone saw Luke concentrating far away. And thus, a well-written and dramatic use of the Force needs to go despite hurting a movie's conflict and story and character arcs so we can try to find a grounded approach to the fucking Force.

 

 

Obi-Wan says his sister was hidden during ROTJ, not ESB, so we had no earthly idea that two kids were hidden from him as we didn't even know Vader was his father until the end of Empire. The only thing we knew then was that she could just sense him to save him. That was it. The only reason it doesn't push your suspension of disbelief is because you grew up with it, so now you just accept it as being normal, not even as a deus ex machina.

 

I just added a Force feat from Empire that you forgot 

[SaysWho?]

2 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

I just added a Force feat from Empire that you forgot 

 

I don't know what you're talking about.

[skillzdadirecta]

4 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

I don't know what you're talking about.

They continued to add Force Powers in the PT too... in the first what, ten minutes of Phantom Menace Qui-gon and Obi-Wan managed to hold their breaths for like 20 minutes and then become one with the Speed Force when they ran from those Droid destroyers 

[Guest]

@SaysWho?hit the nail on the head when he said we easily accept all the force stuff that gets added along the way with the OT because we were kids and not jaded adults. When the ST does the same things, it now is ridiculous 

[skillzdadirecta]

14 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

@SaysWho?hit the nail on the head when he said we easily accept all the force stuff that gets added along the way with the OT because we were kids and not jaded adults. When the ST does the same things, it now is ridiculous 

Yeah I had to remind my self of that with the PT... it led me to enjoy it more than I previously did (even though part of it are STILL unwatchable.)

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

38 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

@SaysWho?hit the nail on the head when he said we easily accept all the force stuff that gets added along the way with the OT because we were kids and not jaded adults. When the ST does the same things, it now is ridiculous 

Had Lucas introduced these abilities in the PT I’m sure more people would be accepting of them. Some of these abilities and more were brought in in Legends works. Like comics, books, and video games. 
 

until it wasn’t canon any more the powers in KOTOR and KOTOR 2 were considered canon by all “fans”. Same with the show of power by Starkiller in Force Unleashed. 
 

but when Rey does similar things it’s a bridge too far. 

[Kal-El814]

4 hours ago, 2user1cup said:

How did Luke not sense Papa Palpa was alive building a massive army 

If only we had 3 movies and 6 seasons of TV content that demonstrates Palpatine operating in the shadows and under the noses of Jedi. 

[Guest]

I’ll be honest, I’m a bit confused by people who seem to think they are the “real” fans of Star Wars and miss all sorts of glaring obvious things about these very not complex movies 

[EternallDarkness]

1 hour ago, SaysWho? said:

 

 

The only reason it pushes anyone's disbelief is because you grew up with the OT, and despite how many ways the Force was expanded to get somebody out of trouble, only now that we're boring adults with no imaginations is expanding the use of the Force considered a joke or impossible!  

 

 

not denying that as we get older often many adults lose their ability to believe...in all sorts of things. However, I definitely wouldn't say that describes me. I'm an avid reader of all genres, constantly suspending belief and fully embracing some crazy shit. I'm also a writer, so I make up the crazy shit, but there is a line where believable and WTF are they trying to get away with diverge. Is my knowledge/belief about what Jedi/Sith can do with the force influenced by the past movies...hell yes. Did we see full fledged Jedi masters pulling ships out air...giant capital ships out of orbit before? Hell no. And you'd think that would be the kind of stuff we might see with the Jedi's fully engaged in the war efforts in AoTC and RoTS. But we are supposed to believe Rey and Kylo who both admittedly haven't had the benefit of true training can do this shit with ease? Rey had 3 days of so-called training from Luke...and then qwe learn that Leia completed her training….of course apparently Leia had to have been one of the most powerful Jedi to ever exist since the vacuum of space didn't really seem to phase her Sorry, for me it just pushes beyond the limits of believability for me. Maybe you're fine with it, but it's a few steps too far for me. And I am still befuddled over a lack of theme/message for this trilogy. I was thinking it might mirror the OT, with redemption. But almost everyone freaking dies to pull Ben Solo back from the darkside just so he can die? Yes I understand he's sacrificing himself (though why the hell did Rey hanging around after she died and not fade away when like everyone else seemed to) to save Rey...the last Jedi. But to end a 42 yr saga on such a downer, just seems wrong to me. 

[SaysWho?]

Just now, EternallDarkness said:

 

not denying that as we get older often many adults lose their ability to believe...in all sorts of things. However, I definitely wouldn't say that describes me. I'm an avid reader of all genres, constantly suspending belief and fully embracing some crazy shit. I'm also a writer, so I make up the crazy shit, but there is a line where believable and WTF are they trying to get away with diverge. Is my knowledge/belief about what Jedi/Sith can do with the force influenced by the past movies...hell yes. Did we see full fledged Jedi masters pulling ships out air...giant capital ships out of orbit before? Hell no. And you'd think that would be the kind of stuff we might see with the Jedi's fully engaged in the war efforts in AoTC and RoTS. But we are supposed to believe Rey and Kylo who both admittedly haven't had the benefit of true training can do this shit with ease? Rey had 3 days of so-called training from Luke...and then qwe learn that Leia completed her training….of course apparently Leia had to have been one of the most powerful Jedi to ever exist since the vacuum of space didn't really seem to phase her Sorry, for me it just pushes beyond the limits of believability for me. Maybe you're fine with it, but it's a few steps too far for me. And I am still befuddled over a lack of theme/message for this trilogy. I was thinking it might mirror the OT, with redemption. But almost everyone freaking dies to pull Ben Solo back from the darkside just so he can die? Yes I understand he's sacrificing himself (though why the hell did Rey hanging around after she died and not fade away when like everyone else seemed to) to save Rey...the last Jedi. But to end a 42 yr saga on such a downer, just seems wrong to me. 

 

Meh, that's JJ's fault for going back to the vault with Palpatine and "guy beneath big bad redeeming himself to fight big bad" and viewing this trilogy as the end to all 9 episodes instead of concluding these three.

 

Yes, the vacuum of space didn't phase her, as we saw with our heroes on the asteroid in Episode 5 who didn't die despite not even being Jedi!  

[skillzdadirecta]

18 minutes ago, EternallDarkness said:

 

not denying that as we get older often many adults lose their ability to believe...in all sorts of things. However, I definitely wouldn't say that describes me. I'm an avid reader of all genres, constantly suspending belief and fully embracing some crazy shit. I'm also a writer, so I make up the crazy shit, but there is a line where believable and WTF are they trying to get away with diverge. Is my knowledge/belief about what Jedi/Sith can do with the force influenced by the past movies...hell yes. Did we see full fledged Jedi masters pulling ships out air...giant capital ships out of orbit before? Hell no. And you'd think that would be the kind of stuff we might see with the Jedi's fully engaged in the war efforts in AoTC and RoTS. But we are supposed to believe Rey and Kylo who both admittedly haven't had the benefit of true training can do this shit with ease? Rey had 3 days of so-called training from Luke...and then qwe learn that Leia completed her training….of course apparently Leia had to have been one of the most powerful Jedi to ever exist since the vacuum of space didn't really seem to phase her Sorry, for me it just pushes beyond the limits of believability for me. Maybe you're fine with it, but it's a few steps too far for me. And I am still befuddled over a lack of theme/message for this trilogy. I was thinking it might mirror the OT, with redemption. But almost everyone freaking dies to pull Ben Solo back from the darkside just so he can die? Yes I understand he's sacrificing himself (though why the hell did Rey hanging around after she died and not fade away when like everyone else seemed to) to save Rey...the last Jedi. But to end a 42 yr saga on such a downer, just seems wrong to me. 

 

Ummm... Darth Vader was pulled back from the Dark Side only to die as well. He redeemed himself by saving his son. Kylo Ren redeemed himself by literally sacrificing himself to save Rey. And again, arguing the logistics of space magic just seems to miss the point. You're a writer... The Force LITERALLY exists as a plot device. That's it. The force works however whatever writer is working on that particular story WANTS it to. Getting caught up on that stuff seems to miss the larger point... would it work better for you if Star Wars had literal power meters like Dragon BallZ where we can see folks power levels? That's another series where powers fluctuate all over the place. Why? Because ultimately none of that stuff matters. 

Jumping movie series for a second... when watching Spiderman 2 when Pete damn near kills himself stopping a runaway Subway train, I remember a buddy of mine saying to me he didn't like the scene because Spiderman has never been that strong in the comics. The only reply I had was "He is now." Trying to quantify inquantifiable stuff just seems like a fool's errand. I have a lot of issues with the storytelling in RoS... how it treats Force powers is not one of them.

 

16 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Yes, the vacuum of space didn't phase her, as we saw with our heroes on the asteroid in Episode 5 who didn't die despite not even being Jedi!  

 

 Except it DID phase her as she spent a good chunk of the rest of the movie in a coma.

[SaysWho?]

6 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

Ummm... Darth Vader was pulled back from the Dark Side only to die as well. He redeemed himself by saving his son. Kylo Ren redeemed himself by literally sacrificing himself to save Rey. And again, arguing the logistics of space magic just seems to miss the point. You're a writer... The Force LITERALLY exists as a plot device. That's it. The force works however whatever writer is working on that particular story WANTS it to. Getting caught up on that stuff seems to miss the larger point... would it work better for you if Star Wars had literal power meters like Dragon BallZ where we can see folks power levels? That's another series where powers fluctuate all over the place. Why? Because ultimately none of that stuff matters. 

Jumping movie series for a second... when watching Spiderman 2 when Pete damn near kills himself stopping a runaway Subway train, I remember a buddy of mine saying to me he didn't like the scene because Spiderman has never been that strong in the comics. The only reply I had was "He is now." Trying to quantify inquantifiable stuff just seems like a fool's errand. I have a lot of issues with the storytelling in RoS... how it treats Force powers is not one of them.

 

 

 Except it DID phase her as she spent a good chunk of the rest of the movie in a coma.

 

I felt that was from the blast and she used the Force to allow her to come back inside in one last gasp. She certainly wasn't unphased from what happened, though!

 

If anything, TLJ did a better job depicting how someone reacts to space than *gasp* Empire did considering they were just walking around a creature's mouth on as asteroid with no atmosphere!  

[EternallDarkness]

25 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

I felt that was from the blast and she used the Force to allow her to come back inside in one last gasp. She certainly wasn't unphased from what happened, though!

 

If anything, TLJ did a better job depicting how someone reacts to space than *gasp* Empire did considering they were just walking around a creature's mouth on as asteroid with no atmosphere!  

 

the fact that were walking around without space suits indicated to me that there was some sort of atmosphere on the asteroid.

 

31 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

 You're a writer... The Force LITERALLY exists as a plot device.

 

it is, the same way magic systems are a plot device in standard fantasy novels. The issue is that good magic systems (unlike say the magic in the Harry Potter books) have rules/limits. In this latest trilogy it seems the Force is whatever the hell the writer wants it to be. Teleporting shit across lightyears....fighting across lightyears....pulling entire fleets out of space....force ghosts having insane powers over the normal world.

 

Another thing I didn't mention that really annoyed me was going back to the same well again and again. Planet killers! Having the Death Star twice in the OT was bad enough, but then Star Killer (forget and ignore the ridiculous way in which it supposedly works) just another retread, but then to pull out the planet killer crap and have it on every star destroyer in the fleet? Please for the love of god come up with some other plot device. Of course why didn't someone just pull a TLJ and sacrifice a capital ship and lightspeed it through that fleet? All those ships bunch up together...if it followed the same logic as TLJ then that fleet would have been toast.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, EternallDarkness said:

In this latest trilogy it seems the Force is whatever the hell the writer wants it to be.

In all of Star Wars, the force is whatever the writer needs it to be in that moment. Every single film. It’s not a magic system, they never even attempt to systematize it. It’s just a plot device to move things forward on an as needed basis. That isn’t to say you can’t dislike a decision a particular writer makes, but that is literally all the force has ever been.

[skillzdadirecta]

13 minutes ago, EternallDarkness said:

it is, the same way magic systems are a plot device in standard fantasy novels. The issue is that good magic systems (unlike say the magic in the Harry Potter books) have rules/limits. In this latest trilogy it seems the Force is whatever the hell the writer wants it to be. Teleporting shit across lightyears....fighting across lightyears....pulling entire fleets out of space....

So what are the established rules of The Force that these films violate? I'm not talking about something that was established in some book that may or may not be canon... I'm talking as established by THE FILMS. There were none. The Force has always been deliberately vague as stated before. This isn't anything new to this trilogy.

 

Quote

force ghosts having insane powers over the normal world.

 

"Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."  Obi-Wan Kenobi from the very FIRST Star Wars movie 42 years ago. Again the disconnect seems to be what some fans have built Star Wars up to be in their heads vs what it actually is. Until you reconcile those things you'll never be able to objectively judge the films for what they are 

 

[Kal-El814]

If we’re going to be anal about force ghosts interacting with the physical world... what was Obi-Wan doing walking on the ground and sitting on logs, method acting and doing squats? toplel

[EternallDarkness]

11 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

So what are the established rules of The Force that these films violate? I'm not talking about something that was established in some book that may or may not be canon... I'm talking as established by THE FILMS. There were none. The Force has always been deliberately vague as stated before. This isn't anything new to this trilogy.

 

 

"Strike me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."  Obi-Wan Kenobi from the very FIRST Star Wars movie 42 years ago. Again the disconnect seems to be what some fans have built Star Wars up to be in their heads vs what it actually is. Until you reconcile those things you'll never be able to objectively judge the films for what they are 

 

 

As for rules, obviously they've never explained the 'rules' in the movies but I'm going on the precedent of what we've seen before. Master Yoda struggles to bat away those floating seats in the Senate chamber, but suddenly two young force users are halting ships going on full thrusters in midair? Clone boy is jerking the entire rebel fleet out of orbit? Hell in the next episode there won't even be a deathstar the bad guy will just crush planet with his mind. 

 

Yes, the strike me down there is from the first film, but we never saw any evidence. If they had this power as dead people what the hell have they been doing? You don't think one or two of the ghosts would have been like...damn they're hunting all the jedi, maybe we should lend a hand. 

 

again this is my personal feelings on these films. You don't agree. I'm fine with that. 

[Mercury33]

Wait, wait, wait...I’ve seen this referenced a few times. Do people think Palpatine was force pulling the Rebel Fleet out of the sky? Cause that’s not at all what was happening in that scene. He was using his force lightning on a massive scale to disable the ships and as a result gravity was pulling them down. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

Wait, wait, wait...I’ve seen this referenced a few times. Do people think Palpatine was force pulling the Rebel Fleet out of the sky? Cause that’s not at all what was happening in that scene. He was using his force lightning on a massive scale to disable the ships and as a result gravity was pulling them down. 

To quote myself

2 hours ago, sblfilms said:

I’ll be honest, I’m a bit confused by people who seem to think they are the “real” fans of Star Wars and miss all sorts of glaring obvious things about these very not complex movies 

You can lead a horse to water and such...

[EternallDarkness]

14 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

Wait, wait, wait...I’ve seen this referenced a few times. Do people think Palpatine was force pulling the Rebel Fleet out of the sky? Cause that’s not at all what was happening in that scene. He was using his force lightning on a massive scale to disable the ships and as a result gravity was pulling them down. 

 

yes I know, but the real point was he was hitting the entire damn fleet....from thousands of miles away

[skillzdadirecta]

17 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

Wait, wait, wait...I’ve seen this referenced a few times. Do people think Palpatine was force pulling the Rebel Fleet out of the sky? Cause that’s not at all what was happening in that scene. He was using his force lightning on a massive scale to disable the ships and as a result gravity was pulling them down. 

He basically became a giant "force EMP"... as soon as his power was disrupted, the ships got their power back on.

[Nokt]

I think Eternal has more of an issue with power scaling and for a lack of a better word power creep. The new trilogy seems to be constantly one upping itself in terms of what the force can do. It’s not so much that it’s breaking the rules of the force, it just puts much into turmoil. Any force user from the current trilogy seems leagues beyond the power of anyone in previous films.

[Mercury33]

13 minutes ago, Nokt said:

I think Eternal has more of an issue with power scaling and for a lack of a better word power creep. The new trilogy seems to be constantly one upping itself in terms of what the force can do. It’s not so much that it’s breaking the rules of the force, it just puts much into turmoil. Any force user from the current trilogy seems leagues beyond the power of anyone in previous films.

you mean like how every force user gets more and more powerful in the OT? Culminating in the final force user being the MOST powerful. 
 

Also we had literally just watched him suck life essence(power) from two extremely strong force users making him even stronger than he was before.  A pretty common fantasy trope. 

[Guest]

The oneupsmanship of force powers across the series has been a constant issue. People were complaining about it with the PT, and there was all sorts of head-canoning regarding this “oh, well, with the Jedi order going away some of the knowledge was lost, so it makes sense that Luke wouldn’t be able to do as much”.

 

Nah man, the force is just nakedly a plot device and adding new abilities is one of the cool things about writing a Star Wars story. It’s one of the reasons it would be good for the universe to get away from such heavy reliance on force users for a bit as the abilities have gotten wild over time.

[Nokt]

43 minutes ago, Mercury33 said:

you mean like how every force user gets more and more powerful in the OT? Culminating in the final force user being the MOST powerful. 
 

Also we had literally just watched him suck life essence(power) from two extremely strong force users making him even stronger than he was before.  A pretty common fantasy trope. 

Yes it’s natural to see progression and development of a character. That’s not what power creep means. It means every successive release gets far more powerful than the last and that’s exactly what’s happening. 
 

Luke in the OT, Anakin and Obi-Wan in the PT feels much more like a natural progression than the DS? (Disney Star Wars) feels. Every time we see a new force power it’s far more powerful than the last.

 

13 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

The oneupsmanship of force powers across the series has been a constant issue. People were complaining about it with the PT, and there was all sorts of head-canoning regarding this “oh, well, with the Jedi order going away some of the knowledge was lost, so it makes sense that Luke wouldn’t be able to do as much”.

 

Nah man, the force is just nakedly a plot device and adding new abilities is one of the cool things about writing a Star Wars story. It’s one of the reasons it would be good for the universe to get away from such heavy reliance on force users for a bit as the abilities have gotten wild over time.

Yeah that’s where I was thinking. It’s literally the golden age of the Jedi in the PT. They have time, training, knowledge. Luke has... Yoda who is an extremely powerful force user, but doesn’t spend a long time with Luke. Everything he learns is pretty much self taught.

 

I get that, but you can create new/cool force powers without being crazy wild about it. 

[SaysWho?]

2 hours ago, EternallDarkness said:

 

the fact that were walking around without space suits indicated to me that there was some sort of atmosphere on the asteroid.

 

 

Asteroids don't have atmospheres. It's another part of a long series of parts that don't make sense scientifically that you accepted when you were younger.

 

So let's make sure we understand this: a Force-sensitive person like Leia surviving space, that's nuts. But Han and Chewie walking around an asteroid without a suit, this was the one asteroid that breaks science and has an atmosphere and that's cool? DUDE.  

 

6 minutes ago, Nokt said:

Yes it’s natural to see progression and development of a character. That’s not what power creep means. It means every successive release gets far more powerful than the last and that’s exactly what’s happening. 
 

Luke in the OT, Anakin and Obi-Wan in the PT feels much more like a natural progression than the DS? (Disney Star Wars) feels. Every time we see a new force power it’s far more powerful than the last.

 

Yeah that’s where I was thinking. It’s literally the golden age of the Jedi in the PT. They have time, training, knowledge. Luke has... Yoda who is an extremely powerful force user, but spend a long time with Luke. Everything he learns is pretty much self taught.

 

I get that, but you can create new/cool force powers without being crazy wild about it. 

 

There was no reason for OT Obi-Wan and Yoda, trained Jedi with decades of experience, to not do the twirly stuff they did in the PT technically. But then we'd be limiting ourselves for no reason, establishing that somehow, even though new powers were introduced each episode in the OT, that those powers introduced was it and no other Force powers existed beyond what we saw in the OT.

 

The increased powers weren't "progression and development of a character" as much as they were better Force powers to get a character out of a jam. Force Pull didn't exist because it wasn't needed in 4. Neither was jumping high. Neither was the same character choking somebody through a screen and yet having to put his hand in a choke hold to do it on 4. All of it was crazy wild. Choking someone to death using your thoughts through a screen is really fucking wild. So is shooting lightning from your hands. The only thing that seemed crazy wild is Sidious's sky lightning in RoS.