Movies ~*Colin Trevorrow's Star Wars: Episode IX - Duel of the Fates OT*~

[Bacon]

I didn't read any of that past few pages, but I still hate TLJ and the ST didn't add any bad force powers. All are just as fine as any other power. The only time I'll start to question force powers is if force powers become people slinging fire balls healing with water magic. Conjuring up elemental spells isn't something I want to see. 

[johnny]

Look, over the weekend my friend was bitching about the bombs dropping down in TLJ and didn’t accept that “there was probably something that propelled the bombs downwards”. He said, no not possible, like a fucking dumbass. People are going to bitch about these stupid things because they don’t like it for whatever fuckin reason. 

[Nokt]

42 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

There was no reason for OT Obi-Wan and Yoda, trained Jedi with decades of experience, to not do the twirly stuff they did in the PT technically. But then we'd be limiting ourselves for no reason, establishing that somehow, even though new powers were introduced each episode in the OT, that those powers introduced was it and no other Force powers existed beyond what we saw in the OT.

 

The increased powers weren't "progression and development of a character" as much as they were better Force powers to get a character out of a jam. Force Pull didn't exist because it wasn't needed in 4. Neither was jumping high. Neither was the same character choking somebody through a screen and yet having to put his hand in a choke hold to do it on 4. All of it was crazy wild. Choking someone to death using your thoughts through a screen is really fucking wild. So is shooting lightning from your hands. The only thing that seemed crazy wild is Sidious's sky lightning in RoS. 

I’m not looking to excuse Lucas’ choice in fight choreography, but nothing shown is really that crazy, just flashy.
 

Sure I get it, they are plot devices and I’m not looking to say what the force is/should be.That doesn’t mean they have to be taken to stupid crazy heights just for the sake of it being there. Ren stopping a bullet in place is awesome, it’s small scale, and doesn’t seem out of place. Luke doesn’t defeat the emperor because he has some force plot device. His friends aren’t in peril because of some force plot device. You can write a more compelling story without having to shoehorn force powers as an easy way out and still have cool force powers.

 

 

[Mercury33]

1 hour ago, Nokt said:

Yes it’s natural to see progression and development of a character. That’s not what power creep means. It means every successive release gets far more powerful than the last and that’s exactly what’s happening. 
 

Luke in the OT, Anakin and Obi-Wan in the PT feels much more like a natural progression than the DS? (Disney Star Wars) feels. Every time we see a new force power it’s far more powerful than the last.

 

Yeah that’s where I was thinking. It’s literally the golden age of the Jedi in the PT. They have time, training, knowledge. Luke has... Yoda who is an extremely powerful force user, but doesn’t spend a long time with Luke. Everything he learns is pretty much self taught.

 

I get that, but you can create new/cool force powers without being crazy wild about it. 

yeah I know what power creep means. It’s the same thing as progression only with a negative connotation instead of positive. The powers have been creeping upwards since 1977

[SaysWho?]

12 minutes ago, Nokt said:

I’m not looking to excuse Lucas’ choice in fight choreography, but nothing shown is really that crazy, just flashy.
 

Sure I get it, they are plot devices and I’m not looking to say what the force is/should be.That doesn’t mean they have to be taken to stupid crazy heights just for the sake of it being there. Ren stopping a bullet in place is awesome, it’s small scale, and doesn’t seem out of place. Luke doesn’t defeat the emperor because he has some force plot device. His friends aren’t in peril because of some force plot device. You can write a more compelling story without having to shoehorn force powers as an easy way out. 

 

Everything got bigger and bigger in the OT. Everything. It only seems flashy/not crazy because you're used to it.

 

This:

 

 

 

is "crazy." The most we saw before was moving really large objects (which aren't small scale, and Yoda even says that 'size matters not') and Force Pulls. Electrifying someone to death is pretty nuts. It was a plot device. I don't know what you feel is "shoehorned," but all Force powers are "shoehorned" to get people out of predicaments. 

 

Luke getting out of dangling in peril in Cloud City was a Force plot device and telepathy.

 

Obi-Wan gets away from the Imperial troopers via mind control.

 

Watto not being under the influence of mind control of Jabba not being under the influence is simply plot devices so the Jedi can't do a power we've established is possible.

 

Sidious not being able to sense Vader when he can sense all his thoughts about Luke is a plot device or plot hole. People talked about it even then, using insane head canon to talk about the Force clouding things or whatever they made up.

 

Luke using "the Force" to make the impossible shot without a computer is a plot device.

 

Yoda lifting Luke's X-Wing out of the water is a plot device so he can get to Cloud City.

 

I don't know a line more arbitrary than "stupid crazy heights just for the sake of it being there," especially since the only one I can think of is Sidious using Sky Lightning.

[EternallDarkness]

2 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

 

 

 

So let's make sure we understand this: a Force-sensitive person like Leia surviving space, that's nuts. But Han and Chewie walking around an asteroid without a suit, this was the one asteroid that breaks science and has an atmosphere and that's cool? DUDE.  

 

 

 

 

technically they weren't walking around on an asteroid. They were walking around inside that creature that lived on the asteroid.

[CitizenVectron]

6 minutes ago, EternallDarkness said:

 

technically they weren't walking around on an asteroid. They were walking around inside that creature that lived on the asteroid.

 

Whose mouth was open to space.

[Nokt]

1 hour ago, Mercury33 said:

yeah I know what power creep means. It’s the same thing as progression only with a negative connotation instead of positive. The powers have been creeping upwards since 1977

If that's how you choose to see it. Power creep doesn't exactly translate over well to this medium as its usually an expansion or DLC that introduces the power creep. Hence why I used "for a lack of a better word".

1 hour ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Everything got bigger and bigger in the OT. Everything. It only seems flashy/not crazy because you're used to it.

 

This:

 

is "crazy." The most we saw before was moving really large objects (which aren't small scale, and Yoda even says that 'size matters not') and Force Pulls. Electrifying someone to death is pretty nuts. It was a plot device. I don't know what you feel is "shoehorned," but all Force powers are "shoehorned" to get people out of predicaments. 

 

Luke getting out of dangling in peril in Cloud City was a Force plot device and telepathy.

 

Obi-Wan gets away from the Imperial troopers via mind control.

 

Watto not being under the influence of mind control of Jabba not being under the influence is simply plot devices so the Jedi can't do a power we've established is possible.

 

Sidious not being able to sense Vader when he can sense all his thoughts about Luke is a plot device or plot hole. People talked about it even then, using insane head canon to talk about the Force clouding things or whatever they made up.

 

Luke using "the Force" to make the impossible shot without a computer is a plot device.

 

Yoda lifting Luke's X-Wing out of the water is a plot device so he can get to Cloud City.

 

I don't know a line more arbitrary than "stupid crazy heights just for the sake of it being there," especially since the only one I can think of is Sidious using Sky Lightning.

I just want to get this out of the way before I continue this. I'm not a Star Wars fanatic, I'm not well versed in the lore. I've probably seen the original trilogy less than 10 times, PT less than 5, and the new trilogy less than 3 times. I don't want to seem like I'm being arrogant, I'm literally just here for the discussion and to learn. I definitely have my ways of thinking, but I've been swayed over before.

 

Perhaps its that I grew up more with PT (I was 9 when it came out), but I did watch the OT a bit as a child. I expect crazy things out of Jedi Masters and Sith Lords. They are proficient in the Force, trained for most of their lives, strong powers are expected of them. Like shooting electricity out of your hands or choking someone a few seats away from you. Luke failing to pull the X-wing out of the water, losing in a duel to Vader, and being defenseless against Sidious puts his acts of using the force as maybe not so crazy. Like it gives an artificial power scaling of where these force powers sit. Maybe that's where I'm wrong, in thinking that there is an artificial power scaling or expecting anything from a Star Wars movie. I think its pretty natural to expect things from a franchise when it establishes itself.

 

I don't get that feeling from Rey and her powers. She defeats Ren in their first saber duel, shes had 0 training in the force and isn't proficient with sabers. In the short amount of time in a year now has the abilities to stall a ship in the sky even destroying it. Size matters not, but Luke still fails to pull the X-wing out of the water and Yoda struggles with the pillar falling on Obi-wan and Anakin when they lose to Dooku. Leia flies through space because her subconscious willed it? I don't even know what to think of Ren, he gets defeated by Rey, kills snoke, brings Rey back from what was seemingly death.

1 minute ago, CitizenVectron said:

Whose mouth was open to space.

At least they were wearing oxygen masks?

[EternallDarkness]

oh and can we talk about Hux. There was no way in hell Hux was rebel source/spuy or however they referred to him. He was an overthetop cowardly weasel/toady, no way he was going to betray the first order no matter how much he might hate Kylo especially since that would mean betraying clone Palpatine as well. 

[skillzdadirecta]

17 minutes ago, Nokt said:

 

 

I don't get that feeling from Rey and her powers. She defeats Ren in their first saber duel, shes had 0 training in the force and isn't proficient with sabers. Ren had been gut shot by Chewie's blaster rifle which The Force Awakens went out of its way to establish was like firing a bazooka. He also had just killed his father and was mentally not 100% either as Snoke says in the next movie. He was literally holding himself together when they fought and it was a wonder he was even able to stand let alone fight. Also Rey was unfamiliar with light sabers but she knew how to fight with her staff. We literally see this when she meets Finn for the first time. They establish that the girl can fight and in the The Last Jedi, she adapts her fighting style with her staff to the saber. They literally show all of this. Besides when Kylo and Rey fight again in The Rise of Skywalker, at full power, he beats her and is about to kill her when Leia's dying breath distracts him.

In the short amount of time in a year now has the abilities to stall a ship in the sky even destroying it. Size matters not, but Luke still fails to pull the X-wing out of the water and Yoda struggles with the pillar falling on Obi-wan and Anakin when they lose to Dooku. Yoda is very powerful but he's also 800 years old. I would imagine using the force takes some effort for him. As for Luke, rewatch that scene... Luke failed to pull the X-wing out because he didn't BELIEVE it could be done... not because he wasn't strong enough. Luke was plagued by doubt and impatience his whole training with Yoda and it wasn't until he let that stuff go that he was able to fully realize his potential in The Force Leia flies through space because her subconscious willed it? No she Force pulled herself back to the ship in order to survive. I would imagine it would be even easier in zero G.I don't even know what to think of Ren, he gets defeated by Rey, kills snoke, brings Rey back from what was seemingly death. See my earlier point about why he lost to Rey.

 

All of this stuff is in the movies... none of this is head canon or fan fiction. These movies are nowhere near as complex as some of you guys are making them out to be.

 

3 minutes ago, EternallDarkness said:

oh and can we talk about Hux. There was no way in hell Hux was rebel source/spuy or however they referred to him. He was an overthetop cowardly weasel/toady, no way he was going to betray the first order no matter how much he might hate Kylo especially since that would mean betraying clone Palpatine as well. 

OF COURSE HE WOULD. He hated Kylo Ren and wanted to see him fail. He LITERALLY SAYS IT. "I don't care if you succeed, I just need Kylo Ren to fail." or something like that... he wasn't being altruistic. He was sabotaging a rival. Why would he care about the Emperor... he had no loyalties to him.

[Nokt]

22 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

All of this stuff is in the movies... none of this is head canon or fan fiction. These movies are nowhere near as complex as some of you guys are making them out to be.

Staves and swords are two very different weapons. Being proficient in one doesn’t make you good at another. 

 

Yoda can still flip flop around like a mad man while fighting Sidious. His age doesn’t seem to be slowing him down that drastically. I’d say he even had an easier time with the X-wing despite being so close to death. 
 

Different universe and all that, but she’s in the vacuum of space, she unconscious, you can see the frost around her, wakes her self up and knows exactly what and where to go. It’s just a lot in a short time from someone who is force sensitive, but has shown no real usage of the force. I guess RoS kind of retcons it by saying she was trained though.
 

Even if I do change my mind about his fight with Rey, what about the other 2?

 

Its not that I’m trying to overthink it. It’s that I’m trying to provide justifications for why I feel the way I do about the movies.

[skillzdadirecta]

4 minutes ago, Nokt said:

Staves and swords are two very different weapons. Being proficient in one doesn’t make you good at another. Dude, YOU LITERALLY SEE HER ADAPTING HER FIGHTING STYLE FROM HER STAFF TO THE SWORD IN LAST JEDI. It's called adaptation and they show it visually. She does a form with her staff first and then does the SAME FORM with the saber. Gifted fighters CAN adapt to one weapon based on knowledge from another especially in martial arts movie fiction.

 

Like I don't know how much clearer they can be outside of narrating the scene with voice over. And at the end of RoS... she creates a new Saber out of her staff combining the best of both worlds for her.

 

Yoda can still flip flop around like a mad man while fighting Sidious. His age doesn’t seem to be slowing him down that drastically. I’d say he even had an easier time with the X-wing despite being so close to death. He lost to Sidious. And everytime Yoda uses the force, it ALWAYS is with effort, even when he catches that Senate thing and throws it back at Sidious. Even with that, he lost that duel because while he was better than Sidious with a light Saber, they were probably very close in how powerful they were with the force.
 

Different universe and all that, but she’s in the vacuum of space, she unconscious, you can see the frost around her, wakes her self up and knows exact what and where to go. It’s just a lot in a short time from someone who is force sensitive, but has shown no real usage of the force. It was assumed that she had been trained in the force by Luke when she did it and guess what? JJ Abrams SHOWED that she was trained by Luke, enough that she had her own Lightsaber and was able to further Rey's training... a lot can happen in thirty years.
 

Even if I do change my mind about his fight with Rey, what about the other 2?

 

Its not that I’m trying to overthink it. It’s that I’m trying to provide justifications for why I feel the way I do about the movies. That's fine but we are pointing out to you that a lot of this stuff is answered IN THE MOVIES and even though you don't believe you're overthinking the movies. You are. There are answers for everything you brought up.You may not like them but they ARE thee.

 

[Nokt]

49 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

I don’t know why you have to capitalize everything to make a point. Just type plainly.

 

TLJ is not TFA. I get that she adapts it overtime, but you don’t adapt your fighting style over one fight.

 

That’s kind of my point. Yoda is one of the most powerful beings we’ve seen in the movies and while he claims size does not matter yet he struggles with it. So Rey develops her abilities within a year to rival Yoda’s abilities, at least in the context of manipulating heavy objects?

 

I didn’t assume that at all. There was no indication that she had any force training at all or any reason that she would need it. I would assume the only reason that scene was made was about the people who cried about that scene. I’m not sure which I’m more disappointed in.

 

Which is why we are having this discussion. 

[ALIEN-gunner]

How did Luke become such a decent swordsman when he first faced Vader? Only thing I ever saw him do with a sword was block stun blasts from a silly training droid and use it to hack open a compartment door.

[EternallDarkness]

7 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

 

OF COURSE HE WOULD. He hated Kylo Ren and wanted to see him fail. He LITERALLY SAYS IT. "I don't care if you succeed, I just need Kylo Ren to fail." or something like that... he wasn't being altruistic. He was sabotaging a rival. Why would he care about the Emperor... he had no loyalties to him.

 

oh I know he said it, and despite his hatred of Kylo I just didn't believe it. His actions didn't fit with the character we were shown. I don't believe he was brave enough nor smart enough to pull off leaking the information without being caught in less than 13 seconds. Again...my opinion. You may feel he was the most cunning character in the entire movie,.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

8 hours ago, Nokt said:

Leia flies through space because her subconscious willed it?

While looking a bit silly if you can suspend disbelief that Force Pull is a thing, this makes complete sense. In low or zero gravity that is exactly what could happen if you tried to force pull an object as massive as a ship. It would be as if she had a cord attached to the ship and her, and she pulled on the cord. 

[SuperSpreader]

So we all agree Star Wars sucks, yes?

[SaysWho?]

8 hours ago, EternallDarkness said:

 

technically they weren't walking around on an asteroid. They were walking around inside that creature that lived on the asteroid.

 

There's no atmosphere in his mouth.

 

You're literally twisting the laws of science to make sense of something more nonsensical than something in the ST when you know that the same "issues" are there. You can hear sounds in space. The Empire gang should have died in the creature's mouth (and what the hell is the monster feasting on? Waiting for smugglers whoare running away from the Empire?) after being exposed to space.

 

Either you need to accept that none of these supposed problems with the ST are exclusive to it, or you need to dislike both, yo.

[SaysWho?]

8 hours ago, Nokt said:

I just want to get this out of the way before I continue this. I'm not a Star Wars fanatic, I'm not well versed in the lore. I've probably seen the original trilogy less than 10 times, PT less than 5, and the new trilogy less than 3 times. I don't want to seem like I'm being arrogant, I'm literally just here for the discussion and to learn. I definitely have my ways of thinking, but I've been swayed over before.

 

Perhaps its that I grew up more with PT (I was 9 when it came out), but I did watch the OT a bit as a child. I expect crazy things out of Jedi Masters and Sith Lords. They are proficient in the Force, trained for most of their lives, strong powers are expected of them. Like shooting electricity out of your hands or choking someone a few seats away from you. Luke failing to pull the X-wing out of the water, losing in a duel to Vader, and being defenseless against Sidious puts his acts of using the force as maybe not so crazy. Like it gives an artificial power scaling of where these force powers sit. Maybe that's where I'm wrong, in thinking that there is an artificial power scaling or expecting anything from a Star Wars movie. I think its pretty natural to expect things from a franchise when it establishes itself.

 

I don't get that feeling from Rey and her powers. She defeats Ren in their first saber duel, shes had 0 training in the force and isn't proficient with sabers. In the short amount of time in a year now has the abilities to stall a ship in the sky even destroying it. Size matters not, but Luke still fails to pull the X-wing out of the water and Yoda struggles with the pillar falling on Obi-wan and Anakin when they lose to Dooku. Leia flies through space because her subconscious willed it? I don't even know what to think of Ren, he gets defeated by Rey, kills snoke, brings Rey back from what was seemingly death.

At least they were wearing oxygen masks?

 

The masks wouldn't protect their skin to the elements of space.

 

This is what happens when you try to make sense of a fictional Force instead of enjoying the craft behind a movie and the arcs and themes. The movie that would come out of this would be awful because it would be too busy explaining the Force, how skilled someone is, showing boring training montages, what permanent level-up someone got that it wouldn't be able to get out of its own way. Not to mention a lot of this is wrong, so let's break all of this down.

 

Somehow you accepted:

• Luke being able to come back and defeat Vader despite not getting any more training after getting his hand cut off and no real training in between movies to have any proficiency with his saber.
• New powers popping up each movie.
• The Emperor having lightning and Vader choking people through monitors with no knowledge as to why they'd have different powers of why no one else could choke people.
• Yoda doing 1/100th of what he did in the PT.

But Leia moving through space to get back inside a ship is where you draw the line? Really? She's a Skywalker; why wouldn't she be able to do something cool with the Force like, I dunno, feel her brother's presence in a deus ex machina in ESB? Somehow Leia can't even move using the Force because now we've set an arbitrary limit on when she can use the Force and decided that telepathy is the extent and not movement? 

 

Luke was defenseless because he threw down his light saber. He goes from losing miserably in one episode to overpowering Vader the next movie, which happened very shortly after ESB. You accepted that, but you can't accept Rey being proficient even though 7 even establishes that she can fight?

 

This isn't an issue with the movies; this is an issue with the fact that you were young and accepted everything when the PT came out and now you're elderly and infirm.

 

Star Wars movies apparently will only work to old people if it's just a training montage for two hours and then the movie cuts to credits when they're about to leave to go do something. No arcs, characters, themes, or plot, no beautiful moments and lines and amazing finales, we need to spend most of the movie establishing rules and exposition and explanations to a fictional fucking Force. 

 

18 minutes ago, 2user1cup said:

So we all agree Star Wars sucks, yes?

 

Only if you can't easily follow plot, themes and arcs and get everything wrong about them.  

[SuperSpreader]

10 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

 

 

Only if you can't easily follow plot, themes and arcs and get everything wrong about them.  

So you love the new movie, got it 

[SaysWho?]

2 minutes ago, 2user1cup said:

So you love the new movie, got it 

 

That doesn't make any sense, but mostly because it's not as impeccably written as TLJ's script.  

[SuperSpreader]

18 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

That doesn't make any sense, but mostly because it's not as impeccably written as TLJ's script.  

Troll better

[Kal-El814]

1 minute ago, 2user1cup said:

Troll better

 no u

[SaysWho?]

"You feel it? That's the Force!"

 

 

Hamill was so fucking funny in this.

[CayceG]

25 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

"You feel it? That's the Force!"

 

Hamill was so fucking funny in this.

 

Hamill had some serious Yoda playfulness in this scene. I loved it. 

[skillzdadirecta]

4 hours ago, EternallDarkness said:

 

oh I know he said it, and despite his hatred of Kylo I just didn't believe it. His actions didn't fit with the character we were shown. I don't believe he was brave enough nor smart enough to pull off leaking the information without being caught in less than 13 seconds. Again...my opinion. You may feel he was the most cunning character in the entire movie,.

I don't think he was cunning at all... he was a weasel. And what happened to him? He got shot in the gut after his clumsy attempt at being a double agent. He was self serving and it did him in in the end. You're confusing motivation with capability. The motivation to undermine Kylo Ren when he became Supreme Leader was definitely there. His ability to do it effectively clearly wasn't because he got caught and killed shortly after he started giving the Resistance information.

 

On a side note I woke up this morning and my niece was watching Empire... so much in that movie in Yoda's teachings can be applied to this thread and Star Wars fans in general. Yoda sums up The Force in like two scenes and it literally applies to every movie and feat we've seen in the movies. I'll post more later because we are still watching the movie but damn this movie is good. Still holds up.

[CayceG]

26 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I don't think he was cunning at all... he was a weasel. And what happened to him? He got shot in the gut after his clumsy attempt at being a double agent. He was self serving and it did him in in the end. You're confusing motivation with capability. The motivation to undermine Kylo Ren when he became Supreme Leader was definitely there. His ability to do it effectively clearly wasn't because he got caught and killed shortly after he started giving the Resistance information.

 

It'd have been nicer had it been fleshed out earlier in the movie from that POV. Plus, Poe/Finn's reactions were genuine surprise and mirrors that of the audience. Because it's just so implausible up until that point. Then he literally says why a scene later. It's another instance of JJ telling us rather than showing us. 

 

I hate to say this, because I do not like this trend. The idea that series need to stretch their finale across 2 movies is not good. If you can't wrap it up in one movie, it's too overstuffed. But I think that in order to tie everything together (or at least keep from having to cut things in this movie) RoS probably needed to be broken up. Or, as I said, had its chaff cut. 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

2 minutes ago, CayceG said:

 

It'd have been nicer had it been fleshed out earlier in the movie from that POV. Plus, Poe/Finn's reactions were genuine surprise and mirrors that of the audience. Because it's just so implausible up until that point. Then he literally says why a scene later. It's another instance of JJ telling us rather than showing us. 

 

I hate to say this, because I do not like this trend. The idea that series need to stretch their finale across 2 movies is not good. If you can't wrap it up in one movie, it's too overstuffed. But I think that in order to tie everything together (or at least keep from having to cut things in this movie) RoS probably needed to be broken up. Or, as I said, had its chaff cut. 

When the movie already felt too fast in pace. Just blowing through plot elements. It is no surprise the Hux thing felt like it could use some fleshing out. To be fair, much of it could have. 
 

this the kind of thing that can happen when you announce something to be a trilogy. When you’re at the third movie, you have to wrap it up, no matter how much there still is. 
 

I hope what ever they decide to do next they allow the story the proper time to be fleshed out and told. If they can do it in two, so be it. If it needs four, do it. 

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, CayceG said:

It'd have been nicer had it been fleshed out earlier in the movie from that POV. Plus, Poe/Finn's reactions were genuine surprise and mirrors that of the audience. Because it's just so implausible up until that point. Then he literally says why a scene later. It's another instance of JJ telling us rather than showing us. 

 

I agree that JJ told us rather than show us which is a problem with execution rather than concept. He probably he felt like he had to spell shit out because he was too busy reading forums like this one and REDDIT rather than make his own movie. BTW I skimmed reddit a couple of days ago and based off my quick and limited perusal of like two threads there, they seemed to LOVE the RoS.

 

Quote

 

I hate to say this, because I do not like this trend. The idea that series need to stretch their finale across 2 movies is not good. If you can't wrap it up in one movie, it's too overstuffed. But I think that in order to tie everything together (or at least keep from having to cut things in this movie) RoS probably needed to be broken up. Or, as I said, had its chaff cut. 

 

If JJ focused less on explaining and spelling shit out that didn't need to be explained, he could have focused more on story and character. That said, you didn't need much to explain why Hux would undermine Kylo Ren... It's pretty clear.

[SaysWho?]

The way his motivation for being a double agent was done left a lot to be desired. It was rushed and it was just exposition. But I actually think the motivation was a good way to end his character in these three movies.

 

In the first film he clearly has animosity toward Kylo Ren but respects Snoke, and in the second film he has to take orders from him. Deciding at the end, screw it, I've never liked him and I want him to fail, was a pretty sensible way to end his journey in the story. It could have been flushed out just slightly more, but I actually think it makes a lot of sense considering the past two movies.

[Nokt]

5 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

The masks wouldn't protect their skin to the elements of space.

 

This is what happens when you try to make sense of a fictional Force instead of enjoying the craft behind a movie and the arcs and themes. The movie that would come out of this would be awful because it would be too busy explaining the Force, how skilled someone is, showing boring training montages, what permanent level-up someone got that it wouldn't be able to get out of its own way. Not to mention a lot of this is wrong, so let's break all of this down.

 

Somehow you accepted:

• Luke being able to come back and defeat Vader despite not getting any more training after getting his hand cut off and no real training in between movies to have any proficiency with his saber.
• New powers popping up each movie.
• The Emperor having lightning and Vader choking people through monitors with no knowledge as to why they'd have different powers of why no one else could choke people.
• Yoda doing 1/100th of what he did in the PT.

But Leia moving through space to get back inside a ship is where you draw the line? Really? She's a Skywalker; why wouldn't she be able to do something cool with the Force like, I dunno, feel her brother's presence in a deus ex machina in ESB? Somehow Leia can't even move using the Force because now we've set an arbitrary limit on when she can use the Force and decided that telepathy is the extent and not movement? 

 

Luke was defenseless because he threw down his light saber. He goes from losing miserably in one episode to overpowering Vader the next movie, which happened very shortly after ESB. You accepted that, but you can't accept Rey being proficient even though 7 even establishes that she can fight?

 

This isn't an issue with the movies; this is an issue with the fact that you were young and accepted everything when the PT came out and now you're elderly and infirm.

 

Star Wars movies apparently will only work to old people if it's just a training montage for two hours and then the movie cuts to credits when they're about to leave to go do something. No arcs, characters, themes, or plot, no beautiful moments and lines and amazing finales, we need to spend most of the movie establishing rules and exposition and explanations to a fictional fucking Force. 

This is the exact reason I avoid these SW discussions because I get called old and weak minded when I’m literally just trying to have a discussion. Have fun. I’m out.

[SaysWho?]

27 minutes ago, Nokt said:

This is the exact reason I avoid these SW discussions because I get called old and weak minded when I’m literally just trying to have a discussion. Have fun. I’m out.

 

Was the  not enough to indicate that I'm teasing?

 

The main point that we have bigger imaginations as kids so we accept things that we wouldn't accept as adults is one that is true; it's why the opposition to the Force being expanded at all is met with opposition from adults, not kids. But elderly/infirm is a g'damn joke, holy shit, it's literally a line Karl says about himself in Up to trick the kid into catching a snipe.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

7 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

Was the  not enough to indicate that I'm teasing?

 

The main point that we have bigger imaginations as kids so we accept things that we wouldn't accept as adults is one that is true; it's why the opposition to the Force being expanded at all is met with opposition from adults, not kids. But elderly/infirm is a g'damn joke, holy shit, it's literally a line Karl says about himself in Up to trick the kid into catching a snipe.

Speak for yourself. I have a child like sense of wonder. 
 

unless it gets too dumb. 

[EternallDarkness]

6 hours ago, SaysWho? said:

 

There's no atmosphere in his mouth.

 

You're literally twisting the laws of science to make sense of something more nonsensical than something in the ST when you know that the same "issues" are there. You can hear sounds in space. The Empire gang should have died in the creature's mouth (and what the hell is the monster feasting on? Waiting for smugglers whoare running away from the Empire?) after being exposed to space.

 

Either you need to accept that none of these supposed problems with the ST are exclusive to it, or you need to dislike both, yo.

 

 

We don't know that there was no atmosphere within his stomach, as they weren't actually in his mouth but rather deeper. And there is no saying the creature is even a carbon based lifeform and what that might mean. The fact that you see the creature alive in space meant to me that he's something we had never seen before...in that I am willing to suspend disbelief and accept it as an unknown. But when it came to Leia ...well honestly by the time we'd even reached that point so many other things in the movie had already pissed me off my suspension of disbelief (or rather my patience that sheer stupidity of much of what had already happen) had run out. 

 

You can have your reasons why you believe you are right and I am wrong, I'm fine with that, but just accept you aren't going to change my mind. I have been and shall continue to be a massive fan of Star Wars, I just happen to think this trilogy was mediocre at best. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I don't think he was cunning at all... he was a weasel. And what happened to him? He got shot in the gut after his clumsy attempt at being a double agent. He was self serving and it did him in in the end. You're confusing motivation with capability. The motivation to undermine Kylo Ren when he became Supreme Leader was definitely there. His ability to do it effectively clearly wasn't because he got caught and killed shortly after he started giving the Resistance information.

 

 

Nah, not confusing the two at all. I think he was portrayed a inept toady and would have muster the courage to attempt being a double agent...and even if he did, he'd have been found out the moment he did. I just can't see him getting any information to the rebels. A better choice would have been news of Finn's defection inspiring others within the order to form a fifth column of resistance. 

 

 

 

Sorry, I didn't read all the replies, but I noticed someone commenting on Rey's ability with the saber. I personally don't see her being good the saber to be an issue at all. It's established right from the start of TFA that she's a proficient fighter with that staff of hers. Not the same as a saber of course, but similar enough that it lets you know she has some fighting skills. If you want to question something about Rey, the real issue how the in hell is she such a great pilot? Where the heck did she learn to fly? All indication is that she's a loner who works are a scavenger so where do these flight skills of hers come from? I actually liked Rey quite a bit, but her real issue was a lack of flaws. Luke is immature and rash in a new hope and empire, he fails and again and again, and it is through failure that he learns/matures. Rey was just good at everything right from the start. What flaw did she overcome? Where was her growth. She got cheated out of being a more complex character. 

[SaysWho?]

8 minutes ago, EternallDarkness said:

 

 

We don't know that there was no atmosphere within his stomach, as they weren't actually in his mouth but rather deeper. And there is no saying the creature is even a carbon based lifeform and what that might mean. The fact that you see the creature alive in space meant to me that he's something we had never seen before...in that I am willing to suspend disbelief and accept it as an unknown. But when it came to Leia ...well honestly by the time we'd even reached that point so many other things in the movie had already pissed me off my suspension of disbelief (or rather my patience that sheer stupidity of much of what had already happen) had run out. 

 

You can have your reasons why you believe you are right and I am wrong, I'm fine with that, but just accept you aren't going to change my mind. I have been and shall continue to be a massive fan of Star Wars, I just happen to think this trilogy was mediocre at best. 

 

Dude, you're complaining that TLJ is dumb when you're arguing that there might be an atmosphere on a fucking asteroid or a monster's stomach in ESB.