General Gaming Man, Dark Souls really ruined action games huh

[stepee]

I was responding to @ShreddieMercury’s take that I stole for the topic title in the Wo Long thread and it ended up being a lengthy rant and not necessarily about that particular game so I decided I will paste it here as it’s own topic regarding difficulty in games.

 

When I was a kid I was never good enough at playing games to actually beat them, I mostly just assumed I wouldn’t be able to beat most games. Which sucked because a lot of games I just never got to see a lot of the stages and art and even mechanics because they were locked behind the gate keeping of the difficulty.

 

Playing Returnal with cheats on pc reminded me of this as after 15+ hours trying to grind past the first level I finally got to actually see the second level. And it was so different looking and fun to see and play! I didn’t realize how varied other stages could be. Without cheats all that is locked from me. I pay the same price but I don’t get to play the whole game that people who are better than me at video games get to.

 

Then something happened in the 2000’s where video game developers wanted a wider audience and they had the content where they no longer needed difficulty to pad out game length. Suddenly you had games with scalable difficulty that anyone could play and it really improved my relationship with a lot of genres I couldn’t get into before. Then Dark Souls came out.

 

It’s funny because you see like people on resetera going on about how much they care about accessibility options in games but say that Dark Souls should have an easy mode and it’s all “not like that”. How is someone having slower reaction time so they are not good enough to progress in a game not an accessibility issue? It absolutely is.

 

It’s funny how all the people who defend not having difficulty options are people who are good enough at games/have the patience so that they are able to beat these. You don’t see so many people who can’t make it past the first boss chime in how this is the way it should be.

 

The entire argument is people who don’t have a problem telling other people who do have a problem it’s fine because they aren’t affected by it.

 

The whole excuse of it cheapening the game or it not being the creators intent or whatever is horse shit. Because the reality is that refusing to add difficulty options doesn’t end up with me appreciating the game better and seeing the creators vision. It ends up with me frustrated and upset over not being able to experience the game and playing the same tiny piece of content over and over without ever getting to experience like 80% of the game. I don’t believe that’s any creators intent but that is what happens with these games in reality if you aren’t good at playing games. 

 

If you are afraid you can’t balance a game for easier difficulties and that your team doesn’t know how to do that then just put damage and health sliders under accessibility and let people fix it for themselves. It’s better than nothing at least.

 

I didn’t want to play Wo Long much anyway but I agree that the mentality is souring the action genre for me and I hope developers come around eventually to it being an issue of accessibility.

[ShreddieMercury]

Nice post and I appreciate the point that you're making about all of the haranguing about accessibility while still abiding by the "creator's intent" regarding difficulty.

 

One thing that I do think that gets missed in any of these discussions is that the difficulty in Dark Souls (and many of its spinoffs) is the game.  When people say it would cheapen the experience to add options, I don't necessarily agree, but it would fundamentally alter the main point of playing these games, which seems to be (based on the effusive discourse) memorizing and repeating the same actions ad nauseam until you beat a boss upon which you have undergone intense self improvement and become a better person (?).  While I'm all for accessibility options, I don't think there is enough inside the Souls games to make them worthwhile absent their main mechanic (making you die).

 

There are lots of ways to make video games challenging, and I just don't respond to the DS approach.  I'm glad people love these games, but the same needlessly punishing mechanics have seeped into so many games that it's just baffling to me at this point.  The reviews of Wo Long I find genuinely funny, because it's as if game critics have some sort of Stockholm syndrome about this type of absurd difficulty.

 

 

[unogueen]

Still trying to figure put how many of these 2d ass games refer to themselves as soulslikes. Absolutely not.

[Mr.Vic20]

For the record, I absolutely adore Soulslike games and for the reason Miyazaki expressed time and time again:

 

Dark Souls Creator Explained Why FromSoftware Games Are So Difficult

80.LV

---

"Hardship is what gives meaning to the experience," Hidetaka Miyazaki shared his thoughts about the difficulty of his games.

That said, I have no issues with every game have a wide variety of difficulty levels. These are video games, let the people play! I do think a fairly easy souls game would leave people wondering what's so "special" about the games, but then again, maybe not. There is no one size fits all for people's tastes. 

 

[Biggie]

I’ll never buy a FromSoftware game again. It’s not that they are bad but I’ve come to terms that they are above my pay grade and I’m not able to advance at a certain point. Which isn’t fun. 

[crispy4000]

1 hour ago, stepee said:

Playing Returnal with cheats on pc reminded me of this as after 15+ hours trying to grind past the first level I finally got to actually see the second level. And it was so different looking and fun to see and play! I didn’t realize how varied other stages could be. Without cheats all that is locked from me. I pay the same price but I don’t get to play the whole game that people who are better than me at video games get to.

 

I think this is probably a sign of why difficult games do need PC releases, or better yet, developers should bring back cheat codes within their games themselves.  That way they can appeal to both audiences.

 

As for Returnal, it's very poorly balanced in its difficulty curve compared to other roguelikes.  Others have said there's a moment when it clicks.  I think that moment only comes in runs you don't get hit (much) in the first hour or so.

[thedarkstark]

17 minutes ago, Biggie said:

I’ll never buy a FromSoftware game again. It’s not that they are bad but I’ve come to terms that they are above my pay grade and I’m not able to advance at a certain point. Which isn’t fun. 

You do realize you can over-level and make these games relatively trivial right? Like you can literally kill a lot of bosses in 2-3 hits. It still wont be a complete cakewalk but I feel like most people give up on these games too early.

 

Having said that I have a lot of anxiety and I definitely need to be in the right mindset to play through  game like this so I definitely get where people are coming from.

 

@stepee I get your point and to some extent I do agree, I love roguelike games but sometimes they overstay their welcome. If I'm 50+  hours in and still havent completed a full run I'm pretty cooked and will usually abandon it.

[Biggie]

4 minutes ago, thedarkstark said:

You do realize you can over-level and make these games relatively trivial right? Like you can literally kill a lot of bosses in 2-3 hits. It still wont be a complete cakewalk but I feel like most people give up on these games too early.

 

Having said that I have a lot of anxiety and I definitely need to be in the right mindset to play through  game like this so I definitely get where people are coming from.

 

@stepee I get your point and to some extent I do agree, I love roguelike games but sometimes they overstay their welcome. If I'm 50+  hours in and still havent completed a full run I'm pretty cooked and will usually abandon it.

This is true but I don't find them fun enough to grind and over level just so I can defeat their shitty boss design.

[Kal-El814]

38 minutes ago, ShreddieMercury said:

While I'm all for accessibility options, I don't think there is enough inside the Souls games to make them worthwhile absent their main mechanic (making you die).

 

I don’t think this is true.

 

Something like the Konami code made Contra beatable for many, many more people than would ever be motivated enough to get good and beat it with the default number of lives. People mod the PC version of From games or spend time in Bloodbonre’s cum dungeon so they can be OP because they like the vibes of the game, the notion of kicking the shit out of stuff without having to dedicate tens of hours to getting better at an individual boss. And do on and so forth. 

 

I appreciate that the difficulty “is the point” but that doesn’t always mean it’s a universally compelling one.

[stepee]

25 minutes ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

For the record, I absolutely adore Soulslike games and for the reason Miyazaki expressed time and time again:

 

Dark Souls Creator Explained Why FromSoftware Games Are So Difficult

80.LV

---

"Hardship is what gives meaning to the experience," Hidetaka Miyazaki shared his thoughts about the difficulty of his games.

That said, I have no issues with every game have a wide variety of difficulty levels. These are video games, let the people play! I do think a fairly easy souls game would leave people wondering what's so "special" about the games, but then again, maybe not. There is no one size fits all for people's tastes. 

 

 

Yeah, I was actually thinking of his response to this when I wrote some of that.

 

Like I get where he is coming from but what he thinks I’m getting by his choice here is not what I’m actually getting. Hide the difficulty options under accessibility and let me decide! Give a warning, call me a noob, whatever you want, just don’t make my entire experience with the game the run up to the first boss!

 

Which I think addresses the broader point people have which is fair in that it would largely be a different game than people who play normal. But to that I would just say let the people who opt in to whatever easier mode decide if it’s fun or not, because anything is better to me than the alternative.

 

An easy mode absolutely does not have to take away from the game for people playing it normally. Design the game and add easy mode after to make sure you aren’t considering it if you are that concerned. Any game can have an easy mode added after completion so any game can do it. Any effort is better than no effort.

 

Also it can depend why you play video games. A big part of it for me is the exploring and and seeing the art itself. Maybe an easy mode makes for a more shallow gameplay experience, but then at least I’m not blocked off from that part.

 

Heck a lot of these games are just fine besides the bosses. That’s a small amount of the content in them, just have a mode that powers you up for the bosses and let you experience the rest of it. 

 

There’s a lot of ways they could accommodate less skilled players and all of them are better than doing nothing.

[Mr.Vic20]

I have zero issue with a designer saying, look, this is my vision at this difficulty level, but if you want to ignore that, go for it! Games are not sacred and we are all better at somethings and worse at others, so I've never enjoyed the "Git Gud" crowd's attitude regarding souls games. Edge lords of the world, hear me, adding an easy mode takes nothing away from you!

[Phaseknox]

10 minutes ago, stepee said:

Heck a lot of these games are just fine besides the bosses. That’s a small amount of the content in them, just have a mode that powers you up for the bosses and let you experience the rest of it.

I agree, it’s primarily the bosses that are difficult in these games. I can usually get through the levels with just a little trial-and-error, but once I reach a boss it’s basically game over for me. They have ridiculously long life bars, and your attacks barely chip away at them. However, one attack of theirs can instantly kill you. This isn’t challenging, it’s cheap. And when you die at a boss you don’t respawn before them, you’re sent back quite a ways away from them having to basically redo the entire level that you already passed over again to reach them just to die and repeat the process all over again completely halting your progress in the game until you beat the boss. The bosses are primarily what ruin these games for me, they make the games feel unbalanced because they’re extremely difficult right from the start. Their life bars should be shorter, your attacks against them should do more damage and their attacks against you should do less damage.

[Biggie]

3 minutes ago, Phaseknox said:

I agree, it’s primarily the bosses that are difficult in these games. I can usually get through the levels with just a little trial-and-error, but once I reach a boss it’s basically game over for me. They have ridiculously long life bars, and your attacks barely chip away at them. However, one attack of theirs can instantly kill you. This isn’t challenging, it’s cheap. And when you die at a boss you don’t respawn before them, you’re sent back quite a ways away from them having to basically redo the entire level that you already passed over again to reach them just to die and repeat the process all over again completely halting your progress in the game until you beat the boss. The bosses are primarily what ruin these games for me, they make the games feel unbalanced because they’re extremely difficult right from the start. Their life bars should be shorter, your attacks against them should do more damage and their attacks against you should do less damage.

I agree. Also one more thing I hate and think is totally cheap as fuck. Boss Phases. Fuck beating a difficult boss only to be rewarded with another phase to figure out and sometimes 3 phases. Oh and when you die you don't pick up at what ever phase you were on you go back to phase one. 

[Bacon]

I find games without difficulty options to feel better and just be games I like a lot. Both Zelda and Dark Souls have no difficulty options and I love both(not botw).

 

And while I don't think DS should add difficulty modes, easy mode isn't really the issue. I want to play on the developer intended difficulty. Anything below normal isn't that. The real issue is when you have like 2-3 difficulties above normal and when you play normal it feels too easy and when you play hard or higher you can't tell if shit is like "wow is hard supposed to be this hard/this easy." 

 

I don't want a "that's right for me" difficulty. I want a baseline. If its hard I hope to cover come it, and if it is too easy then damn, I'm just that good.

[Biggie]

1 minute ago, Bacon said:

I find games without difficulty options to feel better and just be games I like a lot. Both Zelda and Dark Souls have no difficulty options and I love both(not botw).

Was it the weapon breaking system that soured you on BotW or something else?

[Bacon]

13 minutes ago, Biggie said:

Was it the weapon breaking system that soured you on BotW or something else?

That and the open world, the lack of real boss, the lack of real dungeons, i miss having an arsenal of items, climbing became tiresome after leaving the starting area, I miss the non-ambient music, I don't like Link's default outfit not being the classic tunic and cap, and Link should go back to being left handed. Oh and the very poor performance. At least at launch. Also wasn't a fan of crafting, or the Ubi towers, or all the extra gear, or how you couldn't have max hearts and stamina and having max stamina is far more important.

[stepee]

15 minutes ago, Bacon said:

I find games without difficulty options to feel better and just be games I like a lot. Both Zelda and Dark Souls have no difficulty options and I love both(not botw).

 

And while I don't think DS should add difficulty modes, easy mode isn't really the issue. I want to play on the developer intended difficulty. Anything below normal isn't that. The real issue is when you have like 2-3 difficulties above normal and when you play normal it feels too easy and when you play hard or higher you can't tell if shit is like "wow is hard supposed to be this hard/this easy." 

 

I don't want a "that's right for me" difficulty. I want a baseline. If its hard I hope to cover come it, and if it is too easy then damn, I'm just that good.

 

I think this is why maybe some games would do it best by just having a regular single difficulty and putting in options under accessibility for people like me. Make it so you need to check an extra box to even unlock these options. 

 

You’ll know you are playing how the developer wanted and know that checking the other options is not the intended difficulty, and I can see cool vistas.

[Bacon]

5 minutes ago, stepee said:

 

I think this is why maybe some games would do it best by just having a regular single difficulty and putting in options under accessibility for people like me. Make it so you need to check an extra box to even unlock these options. 

 

You’ll know you are playing how the developer wanted and know that checking the other options is not the intended difficulty, and I can see cool vistas.

Oh, that is totally a good path. I don't thing I have ever came out against accessibility options, but if I had then I have changed my mind. Like, all those options in GoW didn't bother me. I would have liked GoW to have 1 difficulty tho and build the game around that.

 

I don't think difficulty options are the same a accessibility. At least when it comes to making the game harder.

[stepee]

1 minute ago, Bacon said:

Oh, that is totally a good path. I don't thing I have ever came out against accessibility options, but if I had then I have changed my mind. Like, all those options in GoW didn't bother me. I would have liked GoW to have 1 difficulty tho and build the game around that.

 

I don't think difficulty options are the same a accessibility. At least when it comes to making the game harder.

 

Yeah not when it comes to making it harder. I think that would need to tackled differently. I never want that so I haven’t thought about it much :P

 

I think of easier difficulty as accessibility because I know at least for me my motor skills aren’t great (I had to attend physical therapy and stuff when I was younger) and I know that and my likely adhd are part of what makes hard games especially challenging and I’m sure people have all sorts of reasons for not being able to play as well as others. I’m sure easier modes are also better for people with more prominent physical disabilities as well.

[Bacon]

And here is a good example of why I am not a fan of difficulty modes. A few months ago I was playing the FF4 3D remake on PC. There was a hard and normal mode and I don't recall the DS version that I played having those options. So, thinking that normal was the same as the DS difficulty and that Hard was an added difficulty for mobile and PC, like a master quest version, I just picked normal to get he experience I had on the DS. Well, it turns out, Hard is the DS difficulty, not normal. And that bothered me. I ended up dropping the game. I was 10+hours in and I didn't want to restart nor did I want to continue playing on easy.

[stepee]

2 minutes ago, Bacon said:

And here is a good example of why I am not a fan of difficulty modes. A few months ago I was playing the FF4 3D remake on PC. There was a hard and normal mode and I don't recall the DS version that I played having those options. So, thinking that normal was the same as the DS difficulty and that Hard was an added difficulty for mobile and PC, like a master quest version, I just picked normal to get he experience I had on the DS. Well, it turns out, Hard is the DS difficulty, not normal. And that bothered me. I ended up dropping the game. I was 10+hours in and I didn't want to restart nor did I want to continue playing on easy.

 

There never ever is any excuse for a game not allowing to have the difficulty change if it has difficulty modes. Hate that.

 

I like trying to do normal and knowing that I can drop down to easy if needed. That’s part of it too where I get anxious about games that they will become too hard and I won’t be able to play them any further. Sometimes just knowing that I can switch down to a lower difficulty or can apply some assistance is enough for me to actually play better because I’m less tense and fidgety.

[skillzdadirecta]

The thing about the Souls games is that you don't need good reflexes to beat them. Just patience. I've been gaming for a long time and anyone who started gaming during the 16bit era KNOWS how hard those games were. You often didn't have unlimited continues... hell you didn't even have CHECKPOINTS for the most part. Adding an easy mode doesn't hurt me as a gamer who enjoys a challenge, but from a designer standpoint, to them they may feel like it ruins the game. And the Souls games weren't the first to do this. Team Ninja games have ALWAYS been difficult and I don't think they even gave the option for an "easy" mode in Ninja Gaiden until one of the updates. "Ninja Dog" mode I believe it was called.

 

I dunno, I feel like designers are entitled to make games they way they want to make them. I feel like alot of this is gamer FOMO anyway... why play a game you aren't enjoying? Easy because you don't want to be left out. How many people buy the Souls games and never finish them? Why? You KNOW going in what kind of games they are and intended to be. Again if the dev adds an easy mode, have at it. Returnal did something like that right? But if they don't I feel like that's their prerogative... I also don't equate a deficit in skill to an accessibility issue. Not when you have people beating the Souls games with dance pads and coconuts and all kinds of shit. I know "git gud" is derided as an edgelord phrase but yeah, sometimes practice makes perfect and the more you do something the better you get at it. It does require SOME investment from the player just like pretty much anything. 

[Bjomesphat]

I certainly prefer games that have a singular difficulty and are specifically tuned to that. And I definitely prefer that Souls games take this approach too. I like that there’s a shared community experience that every single player can relate to. One thing I firmly believe is that Dark Souls saved the direction the industry was going in, and that has 100% to do with no compromises on the difficulty. Dark Souls became a huge success because overcoming the challenge became a feat that people strived for. With a difficulty slider, I don’t think this happens and I don’t think we have as much acceptance in the industry now to letting the player experiencing failure.

 

I will say, no matter how much you think these games are too hard for you, I guarantee you can beat them. Back when DS came out, my wife who doesn’t play games, and certainly doesn’t play 3D games and has never ever used a dual analog setup, challenged herself to play Dark Souls and ended up making it to the second to the last boss. I didn’t physically help her, but I did guide her experience, and honestly, the games become pretty trivial if you know how to take advantage of all its systems. Perhaps following a guide would be to your advantage because that’s really how you enable “easy” mode, building your character a specific way and going the right way. 

[stepee]

1 minute ago, skillzdadirecta said:

The thing about the Souls games is that you don't need good reflexes to beat them. Just patience. I've been gaming for a long time and anyone who started gaming during the 16bit era KNOWS how hard those games were. You often didn't have unlimited continues... hell you didn't even have CHECKPOINTS for the most part. Adding an easy mode doesn't hurt me as a gamer who enjoys a challenge, but from a designer standpoint, to them they may feel like it ruins the game. And the Souls games weren't the first to do this. Team Ninja games have ALWAYS been difficult and I don't think they even gave the option for an "easy" mode in Ninja Gaiden until one of the updates. "Ninja Dog" mode I believe it was called.

 

I dunno, I feel like designers are entitled to make games they way they want to make them. I feel like alot of this is gamer FOMO anyway... why play a game you aren't enjoying? Easy because you don't want to be left out. How many people buy the Souls games and never finish them? Why? You KNOW going in what kind of games they are and intended to be. Again if the dev adds an easy mode, have at it. Returnal did something like that right? But if they don't I feel like that's their prerogative... I also don't equate a deficit in skill to an accessibility issue. Not when you have people beating the Souls games with dance pads and coconuts and all kinds of shit. I know "git gud" is derided as an edgelord phrase but yeah, sometimes practice makes perfect and the more you do something the better you get at it. It does require SOME investment from the player just like pretty much anything. 

 

I guess I don’t see why the developer can’t just make the game they want and then afterwards add in some options to make it easier for people who would otherwise not be able to get far in the game.

 

It just doesn’t seem like a situation where anyone on either side of the argument has to lose. I mean yeah, it’s their right to not include an easy mode, Im not saying there should be a law or anything, just it would be nice for me.

 

It’s definitely an accessibility issue though in my opinion as certain traits that are inherent to certain people prevent them from accessing content beyond a point. You could use extreme examples to invalidate most accessibility options, but nice things to have are still nice.

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, stepee said:

 

I guess I don’t see why the developer can’t just make the game they want and then afterwards add in some options to make it easier for people who would otherwise not be able to get far in the game.

 

It just doesn’t seem like a situation where anyone on either side of the argument has to lose. I mean yeah, it’s their right to not include an easy mode, Im not saying there should be a law or anything, just it would be nice for me.

 

It’s definitely an accessibility issue though in my opinion as certain traits that are inherent to certain people prevent them from accessing content beyond a point. You could use extreme examples to invalidate most accessibility options, but nice things to have are still nice.

I'm not saying a dev shouldn't Im saying I understand if they don't if they feel like it ruins their artistic vision of their game. Games are art right? And the devs are the artists and they have a specific vision for a game which includes certain challenges that they design for the gamer to overcome. They are trying to curate a specific experience and if dialing down the difficulty beyond a ceratin point ruins that experience than its up to them to decide if they include that option. And I'm sorry man, I don't see difficulty as being an accessibility thing. It's a different issue than say, a hearing impaired person or a colorblind person or a person with one hand or arm or no arms being able to even PLAY a game. Entirely different thing  

[stepee]

I’d say it’s just a different degree of accessibility. Content not being accessible and needing assistance to access the content would be an accessibility function to me. 
 

More than being hung up on that word though it’s that is where I think maybe some devs would feel more comfortable putting these options to separate them further from their intended vision of how people should play.

[Bjomesphat]

41 minutes ago, stepee said:

It’s definitely an accessibility issue though in my opinion as certain traits that are inherent to certain people prevent them from accessing content beyond a point. You could use extreme examples to invalidate most accessibility options, but nice things to have are still nice.

Maybe in a game like Sekiro there’s a level of inherent skill required because there’s literally nothing you can do to make the game easier other than playing exactly how the game requires you to play. But for the other From Souls games, there’s always ways to make the game easier, and there’s often a fine line between a healthy challenge and completely trivializing the game. And unfortunately, there’s been quite a few times I’ve trivialized a Souls game and it kind of ruins the experience. Zelda easy is still a fun time, but Souls easy is just boring. 

[Xbob42]

I'm all for difficulty options. Let people make games as easy or as hard as they want. Why the fuck would I care if someone else has an easy time playing Dark Souls? If I get bored with a game or find it too hard I'll pop on Cheat Engine and laugh my way to the bank. Octopath 1 had a bullshit end boss requiring you to use all 8 characters split up into 2 groups despite no other part of the game requiring you to even give a shit about the characters you don't normally use. Did I grind it out and do it right? Fuck no, I turned on one-hit kills and dabbed.

[Ghost_MH]

37 minutes ago, stepee said:

I’d say it’s just a different degree of accessibility. Content not being accessible and needing assistance to access the content would be an accessibility function to me. 
 

More than being hung up on that word though it’s that is where I think maybe some devs would feel more comfortable putting these options to separate them further from their intended vision of how people should play.

 

This is a subject Mark Brown covered pretty well several years back.

 

 

 

Everyone in this thread is going to eventually get old enough to not be able to play a souls-like, whether their mind can keep up with it or not. Everyone's reaction speeds decline with age and that's different for each person. One person might be good until they're 60s where I'm only 40, and a lot of these souls-like are already out of my reach.

 

11 minutes ago, Bjomesphat said:

Maybe in a game like Sekiro there’s a level of inherent skill required because there’s literally nothing you can do to make the game easier other than playing exactly how the game requires you to play. But for the other From Souls games, there’s always ways to make the game easier, and there’s often a fine line between a healthy challenge and completely trivializing the game. And unfortunately, there’s been quite a few times I’ve trivialized a Souls game and it kind of ruins the experience. Zelda easy is still a fun time, but Souls easy is just boring. 

 

One thing that I think you may be missing is that your healthy challenge isn't the same as someone else's. Maybe you can hit an action button within 150ms, but someone that can only hit that button within 350ms turns that trivialized game into just as much of a healthy challenge.

[eventide11]

3 hours ago, Biggie said:

This is true but I don't find them fun enough to grind and over level just so I can defeat their shitty boss design.

You don't even have to grind that much in souls games. There's almost always a glitch where you can get obscene amounts of souls then enjoy the game at whatever play style you like. They're worth it imo for the art design, atmosphere, sound design, environments etc etc but it I completely understand to each their own. 

[stepee]

2 minutes ago, Bjomesphat said:

Maybe in a game like Sekiro there’s a level of inherent skill required because there’s literally nothing you can do to make the game easier other than playing exactly how the game requires you to play. But for the other From Souls games, there’s always ways to make the game easier, and there’s often a fine line between a healthy challenge and completely trivializing the game. And unfortunately, there’s been quite a few times I’ve trivialized a Souls game and it kind of ruins the experience. Zelda easy is still a fun time, but Souls easy is just boring. 

 

Yeah I’ve tried all that I mean, I’ve tried all these games, the only reasonable way I’ve found is in Elden Ring you can just play it like a castlevania game kinda and level up and with the checkpoints in that game it works out just barely along with the ability to summon players to essentially beat the boss for you. And for that game, I think they sort of did add accessibility in that regard.

 

Other games are too hard or it’s just a silly way of playing that is eh.

 

But also since you can do that they could also just put in some difficulty adjustments on the bosses lol

 

Like I still loved that game but I would have loved it even more with another 30 hours back. I’m also just not sure I could ever do that again with a game without an entire month off otherwise I’d check out at some point in frustration over time as no progress was made. 

 

Idk this discussion always just seems like I’m over here saying I would like this thing and the pushback is always saying the consumer should bend to the company and that I shouldn’t be able to have that because they don’t like the idea of me having it for whatever reason.

 

I guess I’m just never a fan of taking options away just to take them away. I get being indifferent to the idea for sure, but not how people are so against it. I’m just stating what I’d like to see more of here, I’m not advocating for any punishments for devs who don’t do it or anything.

[eventide11]

26 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

I'm all for difficulty options. Let people make games as easy or as hard as they want. Why the fuck would I care if someone else has an easy time playing Dark Souls? If I get bored with a game or find it too hard I'll pop on Cheat Engine and laugh my way to the bank. Octopath 1 had a bullshit end boss requiring you to use all 8 characters split up into 2 groups despite no other part of the game requiring you to even give a shit about the characters you don't normally use. Did I grind it out and do it right? Fuck no, I turned on one-hit kills and dabbed.

So kinda like FF6 with Kefka.. 

[Xbob42]

1 minute ago, eventide11 said:

So kinda like FF6 with Kefka.. 

EXACTLY like that, except at least in FF6 there's a chance I might level the characters because I like them. In Octopath you're just handicapping yourself in 99% of the game if you go around fully kitting them out for an endgame boss fight.

[Bjomesphat]

29 minutes ago, stepee said:

 

Yeah I’ve tried all that I mean, I’ve tried all these games, the only reasonable way I’ve found is in Elden Ring you can just play it like a castlevania game kinda and level up and with the checkpoints in that game it works out just barely along with the ability to summon players to essentially beat the boss for you. And for that game, I think they sort of did add accessibility in that regard.

 

Other games are too hard or it’s just a silly way of playing that is eh.

 

But also since you can do that they could also just put in some difficulty adjustments on the bosses lol

 

Like I still loved that game but I would have loved it even more with another 30 hours back. I’m also just not sure I could ever do that again with a game without an entire month off otherwise I’d check out at some point in frustration over time as no progress was made. 

 

Idk this discussion always just seems like I’m over here saying I would like this thing and the pushback is always saying the consumer should bend to the company and that I shouldn’t be able to have that because they don’t like the idea of me having it for whatever reason.

 

I guess I’m just never a fan of taking options away just to take them away. I get being indifferent to the idea for sure, but not how people are so against it. I’m just stating what I’d like to see more of here, I’m not advocating for any punishments for devs who don’t do it or anything.

I kind of just wish there was a way to prove you’ve given these games a fair shake before you’re allowed to lower the difficulty. I feel like once you have the option, most people will take that option due to lack of patience, whereas without the option the game forces you to accomplish something you didn’t think you could. I’m only half serious of course because I truly don’t care how people play their games, but I do appreciate the games force you to go beyond yourself, but I do feel for those that just can’t overcome the challenge. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

2 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

The thing about the Souls games is that you don't need good reflexes to beat them.

 

I will say that Sekiro is perhaps the one Souls-like game where having decent reflexes can make a significant difference and the lack thereof could definitely lead to non-completion.

 

This is largely the result of Sekiro not having the build variety of other Souls-like games where having not-quite-as-sharp dexterity can be compensated for by other means.