~*Official Thread of America's Return to Thoughts & Prayers Normalcy*~

[Ghost_MH]

2 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

maybe we can get everyone to agree to just not shoot up schools, but instead only target parents at home and work during the day. It may make some orphans, but stop child murder. Then maybe eventually Republican parents will come around out of self preservation, or it won’t matter because voting demographics changed enough.  

 

We had a rash of workplace shootings in the 90s and it didn't really do anything. It actually became something of a joke and we even got the Postal game franchise out of it.

[TheShader]

43 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

I mean, you're correct about the other stuff, but you're wrong about this. The media is extremely quick to point out when a shooter is a white, conservative, male. And rightfully so. I don't know how you can pretend that when there's a white shooter, every detail isn't poured over and made a headline??

Headlines the day of the Sandy Hook shooting:

[BloodyHell]

45 minutes ago, TheShader said:

Headlines the day of the Sandy Hook shooting:

So you choose one shooting and only the day of when info was still coming in?

Also, I don't think Lanza had any political ideology whatsoever, he was extremely troubled, but not politically motivated (IIRC). That doesn't change that "right wing" and "White nationalist" show up in headlines all the time, and should. It's not the medias job to decide what information we should have. 

 

 

[TheShader]

20 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

So you choose one shooting and only the day of when info was still coming in?

Also, I don't think Lanza had any political ideology whatsoever, he was extremely troubled, but not politically motivated (IIRC). That doesn't change that "right wing" and "White nationalist" show up in headlines all the time, and should. It's not the medias job to decide what information we should have. 

 

 

Yes, one shooting, because I'm not going to sit here at work for an hour proving this point only for you to move the goal post and continue to say 'nuh uh'. And what is more relevant than the day of the shooting? All the headlines Monday were of the shooter being trans, the day of the shooting, not three months later after everyone has forgotten about it and moved on. Because let's be real, even with this shooting most Americans have already moved on and formed their opinions based on the initial first day of the shooting. No information that comes forward from here will puncture the formed opinions general society has made, including if the investigation shows a full reversal of the claim that the shooter is trans.

 

It is well documented that minorities are reported upon differently than minority groups when it comes to any crime, and that includes mass shootings. I don't need to sit here and waste time at work convincing you when you clearly just want to believe what you believe.

[Greatoneshere]

40 minutes ago, BloodyHell said:

It's not the medias job to decide what information we should have. 

 

This is literally part of the media's job though. Which information to share and to what extent are very important to nail down, but this is an integral part of the job. This is why a lot of media people had a problem with just dumping non-redacted information in full on to WikiLeaks.

 

The reason the media consistently tries to point out when it's a right winger or white nationalist is because not enough people are listening that those groups are the biggest domestic terrorist threats in the country, and that a clear pattern over the decades has emerged of disaffected white people in the white nationalist or right winger sphere going on shooting rampages yet the narrative until recently has consistently been: "it's a random bad apple who had mental health issues", not: "there is a culture pervading amongst certain groups that encourages and embraces such actions".

 

Pointing out that this shooter was trans is a false equivalency. The reason it's being pointed out here is to target the rest of the trans community, not to "both sides" the argument by saying: "media should point out this since they point out that". The reasons one is being pointed out far more (white nationalists/right wingers) is because of the pattern at play with their mass shootings. There is no current pattern of trans people going off on mass shootings, so pointing it out in this case vs. those white people cases are not even close to the same, since the intent and motivation behind each are entirely different. The former is good to point out because there is a pattern problem at play, the latter is bad to point out because it plays into hate and false narratives. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

Everytime there is a shooting, the media always do an investigation into what they can find out about the shooter for their stories.  Based on what the police/others tell them, they will report it.  They did nothing different here.

[Anathema-]

If gender identity really mattered then why aren't we talking about why mass shooters are, with the obvious exception, men?

[osxmatt]

27 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Everytime there is a shooting, the media always do an investigation into what they can find out about the shooter for their stories.  Based on what the police/others tell them, they will report it.  They did nothing different here.

I think the media’s search and desire for a motive is one of the biggest issues we have when covering mass shootings in this country.

 

I have no issue with reporting a motive once it’s established, but the wall-to-wall coverage with analysts and pundits trying to ascertain a motive is just irrelevant.
 

That time would be much better spent interviewing families or victims, showing photos of them, sharing stories. 

[Zaku3]

1 hour ago, Anathema- said:

If gender identity really mattered then why aren't we talking about why mass shooters are, with the obvious exception, men?

 

It's legit the Republican base. They aren't gonna throw them to the wolves. They are alt-right types. 

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Everytime there is a shooting, the media always do an investigation into what they can find out about the shooter for their stories.  Based on what the police/others tell them, they will report it.  They did nothing different here.

 

That's not what's happening here, that's entirely the point @TheShader and others are trying to make I feel like. It sounds like they don't even have the facts about this transgender person correctly, and instead only helped to fuel right wing hatred of an otherwise marginalized group.

[AbsolutSurgen]

They reported what the police said at a press conference.  That's what the press do.

They report details of killers all of the time.  

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

That's not what's happening here, that's entirely the point @TheShader and others are trying to make I feel like. It sounds like they don't even have the facts about this transgender person correctly, and instead only helped to fuel right wing hatred of an otherwise marginalized group.

The claim about the trans identity originated from the police, and that came from the writings left by the shooter. 

[CitizenVectron]

4 hours ago, BloodyHell said:

In other weird happenings, Resetera completely scrubbed all talk of this shooting when it came out the shooter might be trans. That's some pretty cowardly stuff. They could have stopped members from conflating their identity with their crime, but this pretending things aren't happening is getting ridiculous. 

 

That's not an accurate assessment of what happened. They closed the thread for mod review and cleanup, especially due to conflicting stuff being posted about the shooter, there, and people attacking each other.

[TheShader]

33 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

The claim about the trans identity originated from the police, and that came from the writings left by the shooter. 

The claim was originally quoted that  " We feel that she identifies as trans, but we’re still in the initial investigation into all of that and if it actually played a role into this incident."

 

They had not investigated enough to even feel confident that the shooter was trans. Which was quite frankly dangerous and unprofessional on their end. We still do not know what the contents of the manifest are other than the shooter had further plans of violence.

 

I don't know how anyone can say that the reporting on this was fine. The entire internet is on fire about this and most people's formed opinions have been horribly incorrect as news media have all been rushing out inaccurate or misleading articles in order to gain those sweet clicks and views. I haven't seen any two people have the same view of what the facts were, and I have seen very few people who have opinions that are actually backed up by the actual information available. This whole event has been a prime example of the damage bad reporting can cause.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, TheShader said:

The claim was originally quoted that  " We feel that she identifies as trans, but we’re still in the initial investigation into all of that and if it actually played a role into this incident."

 

They had not investigated enough to even feel confident that the shooter was trans. Which was quite frankly dangerous and unprofessional on their end. We still do not know what the contents of the manifest are other than the shooter had further plans of violence.

 

I don't know how anyone can say that the reporting on this was fine. The entire internet is on fire about this and most people's formed opinions have been horribly incorrect as news media have all been rushing out inaccurate or misleading articles in order to gain those sweet clicks and views. I haven't seen any two people have the same view of what the facts were, and I have seen very few people who have opinions that are actually backed up by the actual information available. This whole event has been a prime example of the damage bad reporting can cause.

I have looked through numerous major news agencies and most seem not to make a declaration about the trans identity at all, only quoting what the police said in the news conference. Should a reporter not lay out what the government’s claims are? I guess I don’t really understand what you want reporters and news agencies to do in these scenarios?

 

Also, it appears as though additional backing to the trans identity came from the initial conversations the police had with Hale’s parents, based on what the mother told a reporter.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, sblfilms said:

The claim about the trans identity originated from the police, and that came from the writings left by the shooter. 

 

I'm not against the simple reporting of it, it's about how it's been used by certain media outlets/groups, politicians and regular people in ways that are disingenuous is the problem. When a pattern of white male right wing or white nationalist shooters is pointed out, it's not typically disingenuous. I think that's the key takeaway here.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

They reported what the police said at a press conference.  That's what the press do.

 

They report details of killers all of the time.  

 

 

I think we're having two different discussions here. I'm not against fact based reporting. I'm saying how the narrative has been taken since then, which also continues to include the larger media, in ways that are disingenuous. And I think @TheShader's point is how it has been worded and reported, not that it was reported at all. 

 

[skillzdadirecta]

6 hours ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

oh this is Christmas for right wing, because for once the assailant didn’t come from their flock. Not only that but it was their current boogie man, a transgender person. So now transgender people are not only a danger to mutilating themselves, but also a danger to society. Christians are happy to finally be a real victim. 
 

if school shootings continue to be inevitable, I hope conservative Christian schools get the honor of being the only victims. I’m sure nothing would make them happier to be really persecuted for their God. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

I'm not against the simple reporting of it, it's about how it's been used by certain media outlets/groups, politicians and regular people in ways that are disingenuous is the problem. When a pattern of white male right wing or white nationalist shooters is pointed out, it's not typically disingenuous. I think that's the key takeaway here.

Shader’s arguing something different though. 
 

Providing context to a crime is something I believe is a piece of good reporting. But there is obviously a substantial difference of opinion on what information is actually needed to properly contextualize stories. One of the problems that we have with the breaking news nature of journalism today is that there is a rush to get as much information out there as possible.

 

It is entirely possible in this scenario that the reported trans identity of the shooter isn’t relevant at all to the actions of the shooter. It may also be crucially important. The religious affiliation of the victims could be relevant, or incidental. We don’t know, but people will make their assumptions regardless.

 

And bad actors will always twist the situation, whether information is held tightly or blasted everywhere.

[AbsolutSurgen]

39 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

 

I think we're having two different discussions here. I'm not against fact based reporting. I'm saying how the narrative has been taken since then, which also continues to include the larger media, in ways that are disingenuous. And I think @TheShader's point is how it has been worded and reported, not that it was reported at all. 

 

Where did you see the MSM take the narrative in a disingenuous way?  I saw that in this thread, and on Social media, but I never saw it in MSM.  Can you provide examples?

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

is this digital whiteface? 

[skillzdadirecta]

7 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

is this digital whiteface? 

Uncle Joe has been adopted by black folks so... no. 

[SuperSpreader]

54 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Uncle Joe has been adopted by black folks so... no. 

 

That's cool white liberals adopted Obama 

 

 

 

[skillzdadirecta]

11 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

That's cool white liberals adopted Obama 

 

 

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

[BloodyHell]

16 hours ago, TheShader said:

Yes, one shooting, because I'm not going to sit here at work for an hour proving this point only for you to move the goal post and continue to say 'nuh uh'. And what is more relevant than the day of the shooting? All the headlines Monday were of the shooter being trans, the day of the shooting, not three months later after everyone has forgotten about it and moved on. Because let's be real, even with this shooting most Americans have already moved on and formed their opinions based on the initial first day of the shooting. No information that comes forward from here will puncture the formed opinions general society has made, including if the investigation shows a full reversal of the claim that the shooter is trans.

 

It is well documented that minorities are reported upon differently than minority groups when it comes to any crime, and that includes mass shootings. I don't need to sit here and waste time at work convincing you when you clearly just want to believe what you believe.

again, you used one of the few shootings with no white nationalism or far right nutjobbery involved to prove your point that the media doesn't do this, and it's complete nonsense. They reported on every bit of info they had. Lanza wasn't far right or far left, he was autistic, extremely mentally ill, isolated, unable to communicate with others in a meaningful way, and about to have nowhere to live, so why would you expect headlines to say differently? I'm not the one moving the goalpost. 

 

Every time the killer is alt-right, it's in all of the headlines, pretending otherwise is disingenuous. And it should be in the headlines, the puublic should have a right to know. 

 

 

[BloodyHell]

16 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

This is literally part of the media's job though. Which information to share and to what extent are very important to nail down, but this is an integral part of the job. This is why a lot of media people had a problem with just dumping non-redacted information in full on to WikiLeaks.

 

The reason the media consistently tries to point out when it's a right winger or white nationalist is because not enough people are listening that those groups are the biggest domestic terrorist threats in the country, and that a clear pattern over the decades has emerged of disaffected white people in the white nationalist or right winger sphere going on shooting rampages yet the narrative until recently has consistently been: "it's a random bad apple who had mental health issues", not: "there is a culture pervading amongst certain groups that encourages and embraces such actions".

 

Pointing out that this shooter was trans is a false equivalency. The reason it's being pointed out here is to target the rest of the trans community, not to "both sides" the argument by saying: "media should point out this since they point out that". The reasons one is being pointed out far more (white nationalists/right wingers) is because of the pattern at play with their mass shootings. There is no current pattern of trans people going off on mass shootings, so pointing it out in this case vs. those white people cases are not even close to the same, since the intent and motivation behind each are entirely different. The former is good to point out because there is a pattern problem at play, the latter is bad to point out because it plays into hate and false narratives. 

No, it's the medias job to print the facts. That a trans man shot up a Christian elementary, a school they haven't attended in a decade, is probably extremely relevant to the case. Very few school shooters do this at 28 years old. Most school shooters are under 21. It seems like their identity very well could be relevant to the facts of the case. For someone to shoot up a school a decade after graduating? That's a very different case than we usually see. 

[Greatoneshere]

2 hours ago, BloodyHell said:

No, it's the medias job to print the facts. That a trans man shot up a Christian elementary, a school they haven't attended in a decade, is probably extremely relevant to the case. Very few school shooters do this at 28 years old. Most school shooters are under 21. It seems like their identity very well could be relevant to the facts of the case. For someone to shoot up a school a decade after graduating? That's a very different case than we usually see. 

 

Yes, but the media is selective about what facts to present with any news story, they don't simply regurgitate every fact; irrelevant facts, for instance, don't need to be reported and often aren't.

 

14 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Where did you see the MSM take the narrative in a disingenuous way?  I saw that in this thread, and on Social media, but I never saw it in MSM.  Can you provide examples?

 

Social media is part of the media world, they are mainstream media for millenials and gen z'ers, and those are the examples I'm focusing on. I'm sure Fox News, OAN, and NewsMax are doing their hate mongering trans thing, so that counts as MSM too. But no, I don't imagine CNN, etc. are doing so.

[Greatoneshere]

14 hours ago, sblfilms said:

It is entirely possible in this scenario that the reported trans identity of the shooter isn’t relevant at all to the actions of the shooter. It may also be crucially important. The religious affiliation of the victims could be relevant, or incidental. We don’t know, but people will make their assumptions regardless.

 

Right, and I thought all we were pointing out is that there are a lot of bad faith actors when it comes to the topic of trans stuff? I felt like that was the entire discussion, that most people bringing up that the shooter is trans (not the news, people in general) not as a good thing.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

The media is just a stenographer for police and politicians (esp at the local level) this is not new

[AbsolutSurgen]

11 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Yes, but the media is selective about what facts to present with any news story, they don't simply regurgitate every fact; irrelevant facts, for instance, don't need to be reported and often aren't.

 

 

Social media is part of the media world, they are mainstream media for millenials and gen z'ers, and those are the examples I'm focusing on. I'm sure Fox News, OAN, and NewsMax are doing their hate mongering trans thing, so that counts as MSM too. But no, I don't imagine CNN, etc. are doing so.

If you don't think the fact that a school shooting isn't done by a mentally ill biological man isn't news, I don't know what to tell you.

Particularly, after being told by police that the shooter doesn't identify as a woman, that they feel compelled to use non-feminine pronouns.

[Greatoneshere]

Just now, AbsolutSurgen said:

If you don't think the fact that a school shooting isn't done by a mentally ill biological man isn't news, I don't know what to tell you.

 

Particularly, after being told by police that the shooter doesn't identify as a woman, that they feel compelled to use non-feminine pronouns.

 

I think it's important to note that it's how things are being spoken about and presented with regard to the trans aspect, not that it's being brought up at all - of course it'd be brought up in general.

[BloodyHell]

32 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Yes, but the media is selective about what facts to present with any news story, they don't simply regurgitate every fact; irrelevant facts, for instance, don't need to be reported and often aren't.

 

 

Social media is part of the media world, they are mainstream media for millenials and gen z'ers, and those are the examples I'm focusing on. I'm sure Fox News, OAN, and NewsMax are doing their hate mongering trans thing, so that counts as MSM too. But no, I don't imagine CNN, etc. are doing so.

I mean, I partly agree. “It was Sunny outside” can be a fact that isn’t necessary, but shader was saying identity isn’t reported on with right wing shooters, and that’s factually untrue. And in this case, it MAY be extremely relevant to the cause. It’s possible this person suffered greatly in a christian school because of their identity or perceived identity growing up.  As well, the type of school could be relevant.

[AbsolutSurgen]

17 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I think it's important to note that it's how things are being spoken about and presented with regard to the trans aspect, not that it's being brought up at all - of course it'd be brought up in general.

Can you provide an example of a MSM brining it up in an irresponsible way?  [I imagine that Tucker Carlsson or other entertainment-level commentators like Ben Shapiro probably have, but that's not what the conversation here has been about.]  Just because I haven't seen it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

[Greatoneshere]

5 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Can you provide an example of a MSM brining it up in an irresponsible way?  [I imagine that Tucker Carlsson or other entertainment-level commentators like Ben Shapiro probably have, but that's not what the conversation here has been about.]  Just because I haven't seen it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

 

Tucker Carlson and Ben Shapiro are MSM, that's my point. I'm talking/discussing them and other media people taking the "trans narrative" and running with it, weaponizing it. You can't separate them from the rest of "MSM" because most people solely get their news from such people and places like Fox News. That's where the concern lies, not with CNN reporting the facts of a mass shooting.