The final Democratic debate before the Iowa caucus is Tuesday night, 1/14

[johnny]

3 minutes ago, Jose said:

 

"I believe you called me a liar on national tv"

 

His immediate response should have been to tell her that she was indeed lying. Instead he fumbled over his words.

I have a hard time expecting him to have a certain response when he was caught off guard by the comment. I’m not saying you’re wrong I just disagree. 

[SaysWho?]

He thought she was calling him a liar. We've had a day to talk about this; their conversation was in the moment. He went to shake her hand and she said that; he'd have no immediate response prepared.

 

It's probably as simple as him thinking Trump will weaponize her gender against her and her thinking he meant a woman can't win. It's not important to anything, though.

[Spork3245]

It’s nice to see @Jose is consistent on his Bernie hate from 4 years ago. I have no idea how that short exchange after the debate could possibly prove (or disprove) anything unless you have a preexisting bias against one of those involved. 

But, also #Warren2020

 

36 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

It's probably as simple as him thinking Trump will weaponizing her gender against her and her thinking he meant a woman can't win. It's not important to anything, though.

This is more-or-less what I was thinking since the story came out. He made a comment regarding it possibly being harder for a woman to beat Trump due to his ability to weaponize sexism or something.

[Joe]

People have accused Warren of making this story completely up. At the very least, this proves she did not do that. Could certainly be a case of her misinterpreting what he said.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

48 minutes ago, Jose said:

People have accused Warren of making this story completely up. At the very least, this proves she did not do that. Could certainly be a case of her misinterpreting what he said.

Yeah she'd never lie about anything major in her life for personal, professional gain

[Spork3245]

3 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Yeah she'd never lie about anything major in her life for personal, professional gain

She honestly thought she had Native American ancestry if that’s what you’re referencing.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

9 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

She honestly thought she had Native American ancestry if that’s what you’re referencing.

I don't really fault Warren from the 90's because I understand there are family histories that are based on nothing but legend, but the DNA test and her thinking that she's vindicated is a big big problem.

[Spork3245]

6 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

I don't really fault Warren from the 90's because I understand there are family histories that are based on nothing but legend, but the DNA test and her thinking that she's vindicated is a big big problem.

I don’t disagree that the DNA test was stupid, but I disagree that her claim could be interpreted as:

21 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Yeah she'd never lie about anything major in her life for personal, professional gain

That’s a fairly ridiculous take on it if it’s what you’re referencing.

[Massdriver]

2 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

I don't really fault Warren from the 90's because I understand there are family histories that are based on nothing but legend, but the DNA test and her thinking that she's vindicated is a big big problem.

[Joe]

@Spork3245

 

I definitely don't hate Bernie. I have a strong dislike for many of his followers, but I would gladly vote for him if he is the nominee. He's just not my preferred choice. However, I do prefer him over the rest of the field not named Elizabeth Warren.

[skillzdadirecta]

30 minutes ago, Jose said:

@Spork3245

 

I definitely don't hate Bernie. I have a strong dislike for many of his followers, but I would gladly vote for him if he is the nominee. He's just not my preferred choice. However, I do prefer him over the rest of the field not named Elizabeth Warren.

Same feeling I have about Bernie as I've said to friends of mine who support him. I don't get the Trump-like cult of personality surrounding him with his followers, but if he was the nominee I would vote for him and support him. I think he'd lose catastrophically in a Dukakis like fashion but what're you gonna do? 

[Spork3245]

46 minutes ago, Jose said:

@Spork3245

 

I definitely don't hate Bernie. I have a strong dislike for many of his followers, but I would gladly vote for him if he is the nominee. He's just not my preferred choice. However, I do prefer him over the rest of the field not named Elizabeth Warren.

It was actually a compliment, most everyone else seems to have flipped!

[SaysWho?]

Dukakis was a bad campaigner. Sanders knows how to campaign.

[skillzdadirecta]

2 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

This is more-or-less what I was thinking since the story came out. He made a comment regarding it possibly being harder for a woman to beat Trump due to his ability to weaponize sexism or something.

Even if that's what Bernie meant, there's PLENTY that Trump and the Republicans will weaponize against HIM that I personally think is even more of a potential detriment than simply being a woman. I'm certain he said something along those lines and given how blunt Bernie can be, I'm sure it sounded to Warren EXACTLY like what she's saying.

[Spork3245]

38 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Even if that's what Bernie meant, there's PLENTY that Trump and the Republicans will weaponize against HIM that I personally think is even more of a potential detriment than simply being a woman.

 

I never stated otherwise, nor did I state I agree with the sentiment regarding a woman candidate.

 

Quote

I'm certain he said something along those lines and given how blunt Bernie can be, I'm sure it sounded to Warren EXACTLY like what she's saying.

I do not believe that Bernie would ever state “a woman cannot win the presidency”, which, to my knowledge, is what’s being stated by Warren in regards to Bernie.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

2 hours ago, Spork3245 said:

I don’t disagree that the DNA test was stupid, but I disagree that her claim could be interpreted as:

That’s a fairly ridiculous take on it if it’s what you’re referencing.

Look, the DNA test didn't vindicate her, she has used it to claim native American heritage, when in reality she has an ancestor who had native DNA. There is a distinction there as native identity is partly cultural and not solely based on the DNA profile of your grandmother's grandmother (the approximate source of the native DNA that she does have)

 

Maybe it's not technically a lie, and I like to use hyperbole, but it is at minimum her not coming to terms with her merely having a long since passed relative with native DNA, where she tried to use it for professional advantage. Instead, it's doubling down to prove she is right. It really rubs me the wrong way.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

 

I never stated otherwise, nor did I state I agree with the sentiment regarding a woman candidate. I never said you did.

 

I do not believe that Bernie would ever state “a woman cannot win the presidency”, which, to my knowledge, is what’s being stated by Warren in regards to Bernie. I'm sure what he said was something close to "It would be harder for a woman to win the presidency at this time." Which as I said, given his bluntness, may have come off that way to Warren. 

 

[Guest]

White people acting like they have some claim to racial/ethnic heritage when it’s convenient is a problem. Regardless of her genetic makeup Warren had nothing in common with the lived experiences of native people, yet she claimed their experience as her own. 

[CitizenVectron]

Here's a question: Who should have greater right to benefits provided to Indigenous people in Canada/US?

• Someone with 50% Indigenous ancestry raised in a Caucasian household
• Someone with 5% Indigenous ancestry raised in an Indigenous environment?

As greater and greater "mixing" of ethnic backgrounds takes place (through marriage, children, etc), these questions become harder to answer. Compensation (through benefits) provided to Indigenous people is there for a few reasons, both addressed by the previous question:

• To help compensate for ongoing racism against the group as a result of past government actions
• To help repair past generational trauma that carries down through households/groups to today

If you look like an Indigenous person, there is a very good probability that you will be discriminated against in society. But also, if you grow up in an Indigenous household (especially on reserve land) there is a greater chance you will be the continued victim of generational trauma caused by damage to entire groups of people. 

 

There is no correct answer, obviously.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CitizenVectron said:

There is no correct answer, obviously.

I also want to point out that neither scenario is related to Warren’s life. She grew up culturally white, and has an insignificant amount of native genetics  

[Spork3245]

4 hours ago, sblfilms said:

White people acting like they have some claim to racial/ethnic heritage when it’s convenient is a problem. Regardless of her genetic makeup Warren had nothing in common with the lived experiences of native people, yet she claimed their experience as her own. 

When did she claim their experiences as her own? Legitimately asking, as I thought that she only claimed to have an an ancestor.

If you’re saying that an ancestor doesn’t mean you have a connection to the culture, however, I agree. As even if she did have an ancestor who was Delaware/whatever Tribe she was claiming, she was well removed from the culture, heritage, etc.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 minute ago, Spork3245 said:

When did she claim their experiences as her own? Legitimately asking, as I thought that she only claimed to have an an ancestor.

If you’re saying that an ancestor doesn’t mean you have a connection to the culture, however, I agree. As even if she did have an ancestor who was Delaware/whatever Tribe she was claiming, she was well removed from the culture, heritage, etc.

She, herself, claimed to be Cherokee

[Spork3245]

9 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

She, herself, claimed to be Cherokee

For some reason I thought it was Delaware. Regardless, didn’t she say “part Cherokee”? In a way that someone says they have Italian ancestry? I’m asking when she claimed to have the experience of someone who is actively part of a tribe, which is how I read what I previously quoted, and I am still legitimately asking as that would be a head slapping moment even if she did have an ancestor who was Cherokee.

[outsida]

This convo has gotten stupid. 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

11 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

For some reason I thought it was Delaware. Regardless, didn’t she say “part Cherokee”? In a way that someone says they have Italian ancestry? I’m asking when she claimed to have the experience of someone who is actively part of a tribe, which is how I read what I previously quoted, and I am still legitimately asking as that would be a head slapping moment even if she did have an ancestor who was Cherokee.

 

4 minutes ago, outsida said:

This convo has gotten stupid. 

Your day is about to get a whole lot dumber

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

When did she claim their experiences as her own? Legitimately asking, as I thought that she only claimed to have an an ancestor.

If you’re saying that an ancestor doesn’t mean you have a connection to the culture, however, I agree. As even if she did have an ancestor who was Delaware/whatever Tribe she was claiming, she was well removed from the culture, heritage, etc.

She didn’t simply note in some autobiography that she had a great grandmother who was a member of a particular tribe, she listed herself that way professionally both on her bar card and as a professor at Harvard. I think you may be misunderstanding what I meant when I said she claims that experience as her own. I’ll give my own situation as an example.

 

I’ve mentioned before that despite my dad being black, I don’t go around claiming to be black or aligning myself with the cultural experience of my black family members. They simply aren’t the same. People aren’t super shocked to find that I'm mixed, but I look pretty white and my cultural experience is much more aligned with the average suburban white guy than anything else. So I don’t check that box when it’s convenient, even though I’m 45% sub Saharan African, a descendent of enslaved black folks in Louisiana. My granny can tell you stories of being attacked by police dogs growing up in the Jim Crow south. My dad went to segregated schools until junior high.

 

But their story isn’t my story. Their experience isn’t my experience. It doesn’t belong to me in any meaningful way. So walking around saying I’m black is pretty disingenuous, and I’m significantly closer to black culture and genetics than Warren is to native culture and genetics.

[Jwheel86]

 

[Chadatog]

I can see the headlines now

😮 Biden and Warren in 1st and 2nd place after Sanders slides to 20%

[skillzdadirecta]

18 minutes ago, Chadatog said:

I can see the headlines now

😮 Biden and Warren in 1st and 2nd place after Sanders slides to 20%

Damn the fake news and its anti-Bernie bias 

[Joe]

Wtf will Bernie supporters do if he wins the presidency? What will they bitch about then? It'll be like a dog catching it's tail. "What do we do now?!"

[skillzdadirecta]

10 minutes ago, Jose said:

Wtf will Bernie supporters do if he wins the presidency? What will they bitch about then? It'll be like a dog catching it's tail. "What do we do now?!"

They'll do the same thing Trump supporters do now... claim he's the biggest victim in the history of victims.

[Massdriver]

21 minutes ago, Jose said:

Wtf will Bernie supporters do if he wins the presidency? What will they bitch about then? It'll be like a dog catching it's tail. "What do we do now?!"

An equally interesting question is what would Bernie supporters do if he lost the general? I don't know, but I'm nearly at the point that I want to see Sanders get the nomination just to see what would happen. Are all the Bernie supporters correct that it would motivate the left base and he would win with record turn outs, or not? What would the argument be then, especially if he lost the popular vote?

[osxmatt]

 

[Chairslinger]

2 hours ago, Jose said:

Wtf will Bernie supporters do if he wins the presidency? What will they bitch about then? It'll be like a dog catching it's tail. "What do we do now?!"

 

 

They would spend all their times defending the wisdom of electing an 80 year old after he dies three days into his presidency.

[Spork3245]

12 hours ago, sblfilms said:

She didn’t simply note in some autobiography that she had a great grandmother who was a member of a particular tribe, she listed herself that way professionally both on her bar card and as a professor at Harvard. I think you may be misunderstanding what I meant when I said she claims that experience as her own. I’ll give my own situation as an example.

 

I’ve mentioned before that despite my dad being black, I don’t go around claiming to be black or aligning myself with the cultural experience of my black family members. They simply aren’t the same. People aren’t super shocked to find that I'm mixed, but I look pretty white and my cultural experience is much more aligned with the average suburban white guy than anything else. So I don’t check that box when it’s convenient, even though I’m 45% sub Saharan African, a descendent of enslaved black folks in Louisiana. My granny can tell you stories of being attacked by police dogs growing up in the Jim Crow south. My dad went to segregated schools until junior high.

 

But their story isn’t my story. Their experience isn’t my experience. It doesn’t belong to me in any meaningful way. So walking around saying I’m black is pretty disingenuous, and I’m significantly closer to black culture and genetics than Warren is to native culture and genetics.

Thanks, I see what you’re saying now, but I guess I don’t fully agree with it. Check that box if you have the ancestry - but only because the current system (mostly schooling in this case) is so f’d. Then again, my fiancé’s great grandmother is/was Sioux and she won’t check the box on her college forms, but that probably has more to do with her not having clear evidence beyond verbal claims of family ancestry (which is what Warren had) and not really caring enough to “get into it”.  

I see more of a difference with making the claim of an ancestry vs making the claim of experience, and I’m not trying to be nit-picky as I see the two as a huge difference. However, I also can’t relate to someone who has the modern experience looking at someone who has a “percentage in their DNA” using that to advantage, so.