Joe Biden beats Donald Trump, officially making Trump a one-term twice impeached, twice popular-vote losing president

[PaladinSolo]

47 minutes ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

(Meaning no personal offense) What I feel is insane is a hot read on a sound byte.  

 

I watched the whole thing and her position is that Community colleges and vo tech colleges should be free, but not 4 year Universities at this time.

 

I don't feel that's  a bad take....a lot of 4 year colleges lead to useless degrees and loads of debt right now for students, while Community colleges are offering a better return on money invested and offer less risk to younger people who are on the line about comitting to college or a degree.  Skilled trade jobs are offering pretty good salaries and immediate employment.

 

It's also a pragmatic approach and more likely to pass through the House and Senate than the "free college for all plan"  at this time.

 

IMO I think the best idea would be to push for this and then it's normalized expand it to 4 year degree programs as I feel that this approach is a better approach.   the same for her plan to fix Obamacare instead of roll out an entirely new Medicare for all plan at this time.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't even care about the issue at all, but to come out and say we can't afford it because of the rising debt while the entire reason its being brought up is because the cost of college is putting entire generations in crippling debt, lol.  Its not pragmatic is straight up band aid and doesn't solve anything, anyone proposing half measures shouldn't even be considered a candidate at this point.

[SaysWho?]

3 minutes ago, Firewithin said:

This nightmare will never fucking end will it

 

?

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

For the record, alpha will come and white knight anything remotely negative about kloubasher

[Alpha1Cowboy]

2 minutes ago, Firewithin said:

This nightmare will never fucking end will it

Are you referring to the Trump Presidency?    I dunno.   

 

I definitely think we are setting up a nice turn to the left (especially on social issues) when the Millenial majority and Gen Z voters really start coming out to the polls, but I feel that based upon the boomers..we still got about a decade before certain Democratic Socialist policies can be pushed hard.

[RedSoxFan9]

 

Beginning the conversation with watered down policy positions = pragmatic 

 

asking for more than you want in a negotiation = impractical?

[Keyser_Soze]

Bernie woulda won. 

[PaladinSolo]

3 minutes ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

Are you referring to the Trump Presidency?    I dunno.   

 

I definitely think we are setting up a nice turn to the left (especially on social issues) when the Millenial majority and Gen Z voters really start coming out to the polls, but I feel that based upon the boomers..we still got about a decade before certain Democratic Socialist policies can be pushed hard.

Need to get them in the game now by pushing policies they support now, not "well maybe later we can do this".  After the GOPs healthcare debacle in the midterms last year M4A is a slam dunk.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Just now, RedSoxFan9 said:

 

Beginning the conversation with watered down policy positions = pragmatic 

 

asking for more than you want in a negotiation = impractical?

Art of the deal.

[Alpha1Cowboy]

27 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

For the record, alpha will come and white knight anything remotely negative about kloubasher

 

Or is it the fact that you can't find anything that's necessarily  wrong about my stated opinion that you need to try and suggestively negatively portray it with claims of "White knighting" as a way to pull off an ad hominem attack.without appearing to do so.

 

 

Do you disagree that there is value in Community College and Vo-Tech skilled trades training?  If you do..then disagree and put it out there.

 

Do you feel that Bernie Sanders Medicare for all plan will pass through the House and Senate easily...then say it.

 

 

Obama had the House and Senate and based on how much trouble he had with ACA...I myself just don't see it at this time until the House and Senate get solid Democratic majorities. 

 

 

For the record..I am not pro or negative any Dem Candidate....whoever gets the nom I will vote for.  My discussion is purely about the different approaches they are taking.    Klobuchar is one of the few that are taking the Centrist approach and I find that interesting.  One thing I will not be doing is attacking any of them with memes and hot take snippets because I feel that with such a crowded race..you can alienate a lot of voters by doing so.

[SaysWho?]

@RedSoxFan9 This tweet is for you.  

 

 

 

[Massdriver]

48 minutes ago, RedSoxFan9 said:

 

The lady is wrong. Not every industrialized country as single payer. Look it up. Many of the universal systems out there are multi payer systems and they work quite well. However, I agree that employer provided healthcare sucks. 

 

2 hours ago, PaladinSolo said:

This statement is insane, we have mounting debt so we can't pay for college that is putting crippling debt on them!

 

 

It's an odd statement, but I think she's referring public vs private debt. Also, why should we get taxed to pay to send rich kids to college? 

[Alpha1Cowboy]

1 minute ago, Massdriver said:

The lady is wrong. Not every industrialized country as single payer. Look it up. Many of the universal systems out there are multi payer systems and they work quite well. 

 

It's an odd statement, but I think she's referring public vs private debt. Also, why should we get taxed to pay to send rich kids to college? 

I'm assuming it would be  a waste of time to have economic tiers in this due to the fact that you are likley applying the parents wealth to the child and not their own economic position.   All they'd have to do is file taxes as an individual and they would claim the status.

[SuperSpreader]

1 hour ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

(Meaning no personal offense) What I feel is insane is a hot read on a sound byte.  

 

I watched the whole thing and her position is that Community colleges and vo tech colleges should be free, but not 4 year Universities at this time.

 

I don't feel that's  a bad take....a lot of 4 year colleges lead to useless degrees and loads of debt right now for students, while Community colleges are offering a better return on money invested and offer less risk to younger people who are on the line about comitting to college or a degree.  Skilled trade jobs are offering pretty good salaries and immediate employment.

 

It's also a pragmatic approach and more likely to pass through the House and Senate than the "free college for all plan"  at this time.

 

IMO I think the best idea would be to push for this and then it's normalized expand it to 4 year degree programs as I feel that this approach is a better approach.   the same for her plan to fix Obamacare instead of roll out an entirely new Medicare for all plan at this time.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

I watched it too she was very practical which I appreciated.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

55 minutes ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

 

Or is it the fact that you can't find anything wrong about my stated opinion that you need to try and negatively portray it with claims of "White knighting"

 

 

Do you disagree that there is value in Community College and Vo-Tech skilled trades training?  If you do..then disagree and put it out there.

 

Do you feel that Bernie Sanders Medicare for all plan will pass through the House and Senate easily...then say it.

 

Obama had the House and Senate and based on how much trouble he had with ACA...I myself just don't see it at this time until the House and Senate get solid Democratic majorities. 

 

 

For the record..I am not pro or negative any Dem Candidate....whoever gets the nom I will vote for.  My discussion is purely about the different approaches they are taking.    Klobuchar is one of the few that are taking the Centrist approach and I find that interesting.  One thing I will not be doing is attacking any of them with memes and hot take snippets.  

 

Post secondary education should be free (for public schools, not private). That means vocational schools, community colleges, and yes, four year schools. Hell, probably even medical school as well. Just the same as Pre-K through 12, funded through taxes.

 

That said, without significant changes to the filibuster, nothing resembling a progressive policy will ever pass the Senate, full stop. We won't ever have a 60 vote democratic majority in our lifetimes again because of how the electorate is sorting itself and the media echo chambers that live on, boomers alive or not. And here's the real crux of the issue: when first elected, president's have two years to get their legislative priorities through. Starting from a compromised position, and then having an ability to compromise from there (as is necessary) is a losers game for someone with progressive policy goals. Because compromise always means bending legislation and policy rightward. 

 

The original Medicare debate back under LBJ wanted Medicare for all...the compromise was limiting to just those over 65, and look how far we've come in the 50 years from that. Keep this in mind.

[Jason]

Do you think Klobuchar has ever crossbowed one of her staffers?

[Alpha1Cowboy]

3 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

 

Post secondary education should be free (for public schools, not private). That means vocational schools, community colleges, and yes, four year schools. Hell, probably even medical school as well. Just the same as Pre-K through 12, funded through taxes.

 

That said, without significant changes to the filibuster, nothing resembling a progressive policy will ever pass the Senate, full stop. We won't ever have a 60 vote democratic majority in our lifetimes again because of how the electorate is sorting itself and the media echo chambers that live on, boomers alive or not. And here's the real crux of the issue: when first elected, president's have two years to get their legislative priorities through. Starting from a compromised position, and then having an ability to compromise from there (as is necessary) is a losers game for someone with progressive policy goals. Because compromise always means bending legislation and policy rightward. 

 

The original Medicare debate back under LBJ wanted Medicare for all...the compromise was limiting to just those over 65, and look how far we've come in the 50 years from that. Keep this in mind.

 

Good Point.  I do wonder how much our "fight against communism" affected that during those years though.  I don't neccesarily feel that people under 50 and especially under 30 are gonna use the Cold War against you if you support socialist policies.

[RedSoxFan9]

18 minutes ago, Jason said:

Do you think Klobuchar has ever crossbowed one of her staffers?

 

Maybe if her iPad isn’t charged 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

14 minutes ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

 

Good Point.  I do wonder how much our "fight against communism" affected that during those years though.  I don't neccesarily feel that people under 50 and especially under 30 are gonna use the Cold War against you if you support socialist policies.

Absolutely no one gives a shit about the cold war outside of making a bad Trump/Russia joke. The thing these days is all about "wHaT aBoUt VeNeZuElA?!?"

[PaladinSolo]

52 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

The lady is wrong. Not every industrialized country as single payer. Look it up. Many of the universal systems out there are multi payer systems and they work quite well. However, I agree that employer provided healthcare sucks. 

 

It's an odd statement, but I think she's referring public vs private debt. Also, why should we get taxed to pay to send rich kids to college? 

I'm pretty sure the rich kids will still go to their private colleges.

[Jwheel86]

11 minutes ago, PaladinSolo said:

I'm pretty sure the rich kids will still go to their private colleges.

Even if they don't, why screw the 99% with an overly complicated policy (debt free college) just to keep the 1% from using that system too.

[RedSoxFan9]

Just now, Jwheel86 said:

Even if they don't, why screw the 99% with an overly complicated policy (debt free college) just to keep the 1% from using that system too.

 

Nope I’m sorry free college might hurt my vanguard account 

[skillzdadirecta]

2 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said:

Bernie woulda won. 

If he hadn'tve lost

[osxmatt]

 

[thewhyteboar]

 

[Alpha1Cowboy]

As much as I like Bernie....that age is a factor.  He's 77.  There are extremely good odds he doesn't even live to see the election.  I just hope the Dems have a solid back up plan if he kicks the bucket prior to the election.

 

Apparently his parents died on the younger side..his dad at 58 and his mother a bit younger...and he doesn't seem to be that incredibly fit. But uh...yeah...it's definitely something that should be on the periphery of the conversation.

 

 

 

 

 

[osxmatt]

4 minutes ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

As much as I like Bernie....that age is a factor.  He's 77.  There are extremely good odds he doesn't even live to see the election.  I just hope the Dems have a solid back up plan if he kicks the bucket prior to the election

 

 

Age is a huge factor. Also, and I know I'm among a minority (although probably not among this community), diplomacy and managing geopolitics is among the top of my list when considering presidential candidates. Typically, presidents are able to pass one, maybe two large pieces of domestic legislation. But they manage the global landscape of allies and enemies on a daily basis.

 

I may just not be familiar with Bernie Sanders views, but I don't feel like he offers much substance on the global stage. I just can't picture him representing and speaking on behalf of the US at a G7 or G20.

[elbobo]

21 minutes ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

As much as I like Bernie....that age is a factor.  He's 77.  There are extremely good odds he doesn't even live to see the election.  I just hope the Dems have a solid back up plan if he kicks the bucket prior to the election.

 

Apparently his parents died on the younger side..his dad at 58 and his mother a bit younger...and he doesn't seem to be that incredibly fit. But uh...yeah...it's definitely something that should be on the periphery of the conversation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

actuary tables put the odds of someone in their late 70s dying at under 5% per year and that is not taking into account the healthcare a senator will get. So there is not extremely good odds he does not live to see the election. 

[Massdriver]

1 hour ago, PaladinSolo said:

I'm pretty sure the rich kids will still go to their private colleges.

 

1 hour ago, Jwheel86 said:

Even if they don't, why screw the 99% with an overly complicated policy (debt free college) just to keep the 1% from using that system too.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/03/australia-college-payment-model-exposes-shortcomings-of-new-american-version/473919/

https://www.researchcghe.org/perch/resources/publications/wp30.pdf

 

There are other options. It isn't a binary choice between the status quo and tuition free college. There are ways to make college affordable to the less fortunate while cutting the rich out. 

 

Edit: By the way, another consequence of free tuition could be colleges end up raising their standards for entry through college entrance exams which tend to favor the wealthy: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/03/05/these-four-charts-show-how-the-sat-favors-the-rich-educated-families/?utm_term=.07a6666cf139

 

I like the idea of tuition being free or partially paid for based upon future income years later. It makes the policy cheaper and it targets the less fortunate with the subside. You also have to look at incentives in this policy or free tuition for colleges to control costs.

[Dodger]

3 hours ago, Alpha1Cowboy said:

This is why Trump is gonna win.   Dumbed down liberals more into twitter burns instead  of elaborating on positions.

 

 

She put it out there last night...she ain't gonna blow smoke up your ass and promise things she knows she can't deliver.  She's taking positions that she feels that she has a good chance of delivering on.   Improving Obamacare, free community and vo tech college, re-enetring the Paris climate Agreement day 1.

 

These are positions she feels that she can work with Congress to craft and push through legislation.  

 

 

 

 

I actually support this approach as well. I want to see realistic policy proposals that we can actually reasonably implement in this country instead of good sounding pie in the sky promises like free healthcare! Free college! Jobs for everyone! without any actual plan on how we do it.

 

It's like that guy running for class president when I was in 7th grade who promised a SNES in every classroom if he won. He won, we never did get SNES's in our classrooms. 

[osxmatt]

4 minutes ago, Dodger said:

 

 

I actually support this approach as well. I want to see realistic policy proposals that we can actually reasonably implement in this country instead of good sounding pie in the sky promises like free healthcare! Free college! Jobs for everyone! without any actual plan on how we do it.

 

It's like that guy running for class president when I was in 7th grade who promised a SNES in every classroom if he won. He won, we never did get SNES's in our classrooms. 

 

No more homework!

[Massdriver]

1 hour ago, RedSoxFan9 said:

 

Nope I’m sorry free college might hurt my vanguard account 

You do nothing but shit post and attack people. Try making a real argument for a change. 

[RedSoxFan9]

59 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

You do nothing but shit post and attack people. Try making a real argument for a change. 

 

I was right.

 

You are okay with wrecking the environment and the lives of millions so you can see growth in your investment accounts.  Cry me a fucking river 

[RedSoxFan9]

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

1 hour ago, Massdriver said:

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/03/australia-college-payment-model-exposes-shortcomings-of-new-american-version/473919/

https://www.researchcghe.org/perch/resources/publications/wp30.pdf

 

There are other options. It isn't a binary choice between the status quo and tuition free college. There are ways to make college affordable to the less fortunate while cutting the rich out. 

 

Edit: By the way, another consequence of free tuition could be colleges end up raising their standards for entry through college entrance exams which tend to favor the wealthy: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/03/05/these-four-charts-show-how-the-sat-favors-the-rich-educated-families/?utm_term=.07a6666cf139

 

I like the idea of tuition being free or partially paid for based upon future income years later. It makes the policy cheaper and it targets the less fortunate with the subside. You also have to look at incentives in this policy or free tuition for colleges to control costs.

Or we can go back to the model before tax and funding cuts. See Here, particularly under figure 5

 

States cut funding due to tax shortfall (recession), to make up shortfall colleges and universities pass that cost on to students. One avenue of change could be limiting how much of an increase colleges and universities can have, because I know Ohio does this and based on that link it keeps tuition increases down (but increases other fees and cut in student services)

[RedSoxFan9]

 

the starbucks guy is crying