Joe Biden beats Donald Trump, officially making Trump a one-term twice impeached, twice popular-vote losing president

[RedSoxFan9]

6 hours ago, RedSoxFan9 said:

 

congrats to the 4 people who get their loans forgiven 

 

 

front page of today’s NYT

[Scott]

I’m fine with no one having their loans forgiven. You took out the loan. You pay it back. Seems pretty complicated. 

[CitizenVectron]

1 hour ago, Scott said:

I’m fine with no one having their loans forgiven. You took out the loan. You pay it back. Seems pretty complicated. 

 

Cool, coo coo cooool. Do you feel the same about all loans, such as mortgages, business loans (falling on owners), etc? If we apply it to student loans we should apply it to all...except of course we don't because society would fall apart as no one would ever take out money for a business or home if they knew there was never any way to get out of it in a bad situation.

[johnny]

11 hours ago, RedSoxFan9 said:

 

congrats to the 4 people who get their loans forgiven 

This is the dumbest thing I’ve seen all day. Who let her release this  

[Scott]

2 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

Cool, coo coo cooool. Do you feel the same about all loans, such as mortgages, business loans (falling on owners), etc? If we apply it to student loans we should apply it to all...except of course we don't because society would fall apart as no one would ever take out money for a business or home if they knew there was never any way to get out of it in a bad situation.

Yes, I'm cool cool cool with students/anyone having to pay back money they borrowed. I know this doesn't play well in Liberal Utopia, but I'm fine with the economy suffering whatever stimulation is lost from Joe Sociology Degree being out of the game for a while.

 

Is this the best way to structure a society - wantonly borrow money and if if turns out you made a mistake just expect your fellow taxpayers to bail you out?

 

Also, this is the wrong way to approach the problem. Forgiving the debt doesn't fix the tuition hikes and morally questionable federal loans that are being given out in the first place.

 

God forbid we reform the system and encourage people to borrow responsibly.

[TheGreatGamble]

On 7/24/2019 at 8:49 AM, Anathema- said:

If she wanted to humiliate him they could have just played his ridiculous "cancelled" ad.

You really hate him, don't you? Are you still that angry about supporting a horrible candidate in 2016? 

[TheGreatGamble]

3 hours ago, Scott said:

Yes, I'm cool cool cool with students/anyone having to pay back money they borrowed. I know this doesn't play well in Liberal Utopia, but I'm fine with the economy suffering whatever stimulation is lost from Joe Sociology Degree being out of the game for a while.

 

Is this the best way to structure a society - wantonly borrow money and if if turns out you made a mistake just expect your fellow taxpayers to bail you out?

 

Also, this is the wrong way to approach the problem. Forgiving the debt doesn't fix the tuition hikes and morally questionable federal loans that are being given out in the first place.

 

God forbid we reform the system and encourage people to borrow responsibly.

How dare we expect people to take responsibility for their decisions and choices? 

 

I agree with you. Students want to be able to waste tens of thousands of dollars in a degree they can never make their money back with, and expect tax payers to fund it. It's ridiculous. Make better choices. Id be all for capping tuition, but not for student loan forgiveness. 

[Anathema-]

18 hours ago, RedSoxFan9 said:

 

congrats to the 4 people who get their loans forgiven 

 

She's going for that Joe Biden voter HARD

[Joe]

1 hour ago, TheGreatGamble said:

You really hate him, don't you? Are you still that angry about supporting a horrible candidate in 2016? 

 

How do you know he "still" hates him and how do you know who he supported in 2016? Arent you a new user?

[SaysWho?]

On 7/23/2019 at 2:05 AM, thewhyteboar said:

 

 

This is fantastic.

[Anathema-]

1 hour ago, TheGreatGamble said:

You really hate him, don't you? Are you still that angry about supporting a horrible candidate in 2016? 

 

who the fuck is you

[TheGreatGamble]

54 minutes ago, Jose said:

 

How do you know he "still" hates him and how do you know who he supported in 2016? Arent you a new user?

I've heard him bitch about Bernie in multiple threads on this forum, as well as him blaming "bernie bro's" for 2016. He wasn't supporting Trump, can you not add 2 and 2? 

[Joe]

15 minutes ago, TheGreatGamble said:

I've heard him bitch about Bernie in multiple threads on this forum, as well as him blaming "bernie bro's" for 2016. He wasn't supporting Trump, can you not add 2 and 2? 

 

Sure thing, apoc.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

No one should have been forced into going into debt for a public University, so correcting that wrong, and preventing it from happening again, is gonna cost money. 

[Signifyin(g)Monkey]

6 hours ago, Scott said:

Yes, I'm cool cool cool with students/anyone having to pay back money they borrowed. I know this doesn't play well in Liberal Utopia, but I'm fine with the economy suffering whatever stimulation is lost from Joe Sociology Degree being out of the game for a while.

 

Is this the best way to structure a society - wantonly borrow money and if if turns out you made a mistake just expect your fellow taxpayers to bail you out?

 

Also, this is the wrong way to approach the problem. Forgiving the debt doesn't fix the tuition hikes and morally questionable federal loans that are being given out in the first place.

 

God forbid we reform the system and encourage people to borrow responsibly.

You can fashion a loan forgiveness program which is designed to address the root cause of the issues in higher education you mentioned.  It doesn’t have to be a ‘no strings attached’ approach.  Indeed, for society to reap the maximum benefit, it shouldn’t be—it should come with strings attached that realign bad incentive structures in higher education (like the wasteful spending you mentioned that leads to tuitions rising faster than inflation)

 

But I find it curious that you would be against something that is in your own economic self-interest.  A less indebted society means a lower cost of living (for you, among others), a better labor market (for you, among others), greater economic growth (for you, among others), a lower overall cost of production and hence a better competitive edge internationally (for the whole country)...the list of benefits to you goes on and on.

 

Even if your attitude towards indebted college students amounts to ‘fuck em, they screwed themselves’, why would you undermine your own economic interests to ‘stick it’ to them?  Seems a touch masochistic.

 

It’s worth noting, btw, that, historically, the lack of cultural willingness to periodically forgive debts that have grown so huge they begin to eat into the economic surplus is one of the most consistent features of once successful civilizations that collapse.  

[Remarkableriots]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/kamala-harris-new-health-plan-medicare-for-all-with-private-insurers/ar-AAF0Vb7?ocid=AMZN

Quote

Under so-called KamalaCare, which establishes a phase-in period of a decade, Harris has at last settled on a way to keep private health insurers in the fold after seesawing on the question since January — and she would do so by leaning on an existing and popular federal program.

Harris’ offering maintains her commitment to universal health coverage — demanded by her party’s base — while lowering the temperature among the guardians of Obamacare who fear that overreaching would wipe out their hard-fought gains. Kathleen Sebelius, who served as Health and Human Services secretary in the Obama administration and was consulted on Harris’ plan, blessed it as “a smart way to get to Medicare for All where all individuals and employers can transition smoothly into a system that covers everyone.”

But Harris’ proposal skimps on myriad details, including the plan’s cost, and will likely still face skepticism from progressives — worried about propping up insurance companies and the slower pace of change — as well as from conservatives and deep-pocketed health care lobbyists staunchly opposed to any form of Medicare expansion

 

[thewhyteboar]

 

[RedSoxFan9]

https://www.aarp.org/money/credit-loans-debt/info-2019/millennial-regrets.html

https://www.aarp.org/money/credit-loans-debt/info-2019/student-loan-debt-report.html

 

very cool!

[CitizenVectron]

12 hours ago, Scott said:

Yes, I'm cool cool cool with students/anyone having to pay back money they borrowed. I know this doesn't play well in Liberal Utopia, but I'm fine with the economy suffering whatever stimulation is lost from Joe Sociology Degree being out of the game for a while.

 

Is this the best way to structure a society - wantonly borrow money and if if turns out you made a mistake just expect your fellow taxpayers to bail you out?

 

Also, this is the wrong way to approach the problem. Forgiving the debt doesn't fix the tuition hikes and morally questionable federal loans that are being given out in the first place.

 

God forbid we reform the system and encourage people to borrow responsibly.

 

You didn't answer my question though - are you okay with making all forms of debt inescapable, just like student loan debt? Mortgages, business loans (tied to the business owner(s)), etc? If people had to personally be responsible for all failed businesses (without using incorporation as an escape) then the economy would grind to a halt. So why should everyone but students (who are typically forced into loans while a minor) be able to escape their bad decisions?

[Kal-El814]

8 hours ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

It’s worth noting, btw, that, historically, the lack of cultural willingness to periodically forgive debts that have grown so huge they begin to eat into the economic surplus is one of the most consistent features of once successful civilizations that collapse.  

Collapse society to own the libs. 

[SaysWho?]

17 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

Collapse society to own the libs. 

 

I know Scott's coming from a good place since he's straight-forward and doesn't debate in bad faith, but I still laughed. In Florida, I feel like they don't enact better environmental policies out of spite toward liberals, honest to God.

[Greatoneshere]

5 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

You didn't answer my question though - are you okay with making all forms of debt inescapable, just like student loan debt? Mortgages, business loans (tied to the business owner(s)), etc? If people had to personally be responsible for all failed businesses (without using incorporation as an escape) then the economy would grind to a halt. So why should everyone but students (who are typically forced into loans while a minor) be able to escape their bad decisions?

 

I'm pretty sure he doesn't know how student loan debt works or why it's so much higher than the rate of money made after college by a wide margin (thanks to interest rates and inflation). Yes, it's the taxpayers job to help a group of people out of a bad situation. I'm not sure what the problem is with that vs. putting even more into defense spending or ICE or a stupid hate monument.

 

But sure, let's keep people down instead and give tax cuts to the rich. People's priorities really are fucked.

[Scott]

5 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

You didn't answer my question though - are you okay with making all forms of debt inescapable, just like student loan debt? Mortgages, business loans (tied to the business owner(s)), etc? If people had to personally be responsible for all failed businesses (without using incorporation as an escape) then the economy would grind to a halt. So why should everyone but students (who are typically forced into loans while a minor) be able to escape their bad decisions?

In theory, yes, I'm fine with making all forms of debt inescapable. In practice, I'd have to see some models and tests run. However, with a corporation, at least you have a collection of individuals that is striving to produce or do something of value to society at large. As a taxpayer, I'd much rather take a bet on that collective than on some random 18 year old who made a bad choice of majors. But generally speaking, I'm opposed to bailouts of all kinds.

 

Let me ask you the inverse - would you be okay with all loans of any kind being "forgiven" by the taxpaying base of citizens? If I somehow get a loan for a $2 million house, and I make $20k a year, and eventually fess up that there's no way I can pay for that house... should you have to pay for my fuck up? (Also, this scenario isn't really that inconceivable, when you compare it to tuition for some of these schools, and the paths that many students are on).

33 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I'm pretty sure he doesn't know how student loan debt works or why it's so much higher than the rate of money made after college by a wide margin (thanks to interest rates and inflation). Yes, it's the taxpayers job to help a group of people out of a bad situation. I'm not sure what the problem is with that vs. putting even more into defense spending or ICE or a stupid hate monument.

 

But sure, let's keep people down instead and give tax cuts to the rich. People's priorities really are fucked.

As someone who just finished paying off $250,000 of school loan debt, I certainly do understand how it works, fuckyouverymuch. I didn't need a bailout to get it done, either.

 

You've constructed a false choice - it's not "help out these poor, sweet college kids who've been crushed by The Man" or "erect hate monuments." You're projecting your own emotional politics onto the situation.

 

And insofar as you believe it's "the taxpayers job to help a group of people out of a bad situation," I'm fine with tax dollars going toward hurricane victims or 911 first responders. Not so much for kids who figured that majoring in basket weaving at USC for 5 years was going to lead to a big payday.

11 hours ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

You can fashion a loan forgiveness program which is designed to address the root cause of the issues in higher education you mentioned.  It doesn’t have to be a ‘no strings attached’ approach.  Indeed, for society to reap the maximum benefit, it shouldn’t be—it should come with strings attached that realign bad incentive structures in higher education (like the wasteful spending you mentioned that leads to tuitions rising faster than inflation)

 

But I find it curious that you would be against something that is in your own economic self-interest.  A less indebted society means a lower cost of living (for you, among others), a better labor market (for you, among others), greater economic growth (for you, among others), a lower overall cost of production and hence a better competitive edge internationally (for the whole country)...the list of benefits to you goes on and on.

 

Even if your attitude towards indebted college students amounts to ‘fuck em, they screwed themselves’, why would you undermine your own economic interests to ‘stick it’ to them?  Seems a touch masochistic.

 

It’s worth noting, btw, that, historically, the lack of cultural willingness to periodically forgive debts that have grown so huge they begin to eat into the economic surplus is one of the most consistent features of once successful civilizations that collapse.  

A loan forgiveness program *with strings attached* isn't a handout, so I'd be much more on board with it. The situation you described in your first paragraph is something I'd support. In my own field, graduates can qualify for limited loan forgiveness in exchange for working for the government for a given amount of time. Again, that's not a handout. That's help, and an incentive.

 

As far as it being against my own economic interest... how much would we stimulate the economy if we instantly forgave all mortgage debt in this country? Bet everyone would have a lot more disposable income for stimulatin'. Free stuff is great, when you're not the person paying for the free stuff.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Mortgage interest should not be deductible.  That'll solve the mortgage debt problem right quick!

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

20 minutes ago, Scott said:

Not so much for kids who figured that majoring in basket weaving at USC for 5 years was going to lead to a big payday.

Ah yes, the $1.2trillion in student debt is from those who majored in basket weaving.

 

Also any analogy with houses is dumb on it's face because if a private bank (as opposed to the federal government in student loans) lends money to someone there is an underlying asset that can be repossessed and resold to recoup some of the losses.

 

The point of the discussion with student loans is because they are the result of a neoliberal policy failure. The failure was the lack of funding of higher education like we do k-12. The result is a generation of people who have to delay or forego the traditional signifiers of adulthood: buying a home, getting married, having kids. All so they can be indebted to...their own government. At 6+% interest.

[CitizenVectron]

The real solution is to provide free, public university education to everyone who wants it. Private schools can exist alongside just like they do for lower levels, but you'd need to pay for those. All employees would be public-sector.

[Scott]

10 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Ah yes, the $1.2trillion in student debt is from those who majored in basket weaving.

As you well understand, the popular "basket weaving" trope describes the many students who took out huge loans to pursue careers that had no foreseeable chance of leading to repayment. Maybe basket weaving wasn't the major, but it may as well have been. Take out a loan if you've made a plan to pay it back.

 

 

edit: with regard to the rest of what you wrote, it's a fuck-up across the board. Predatory lending coupled with reckless borrowing. I'm all for reforming the system (see CV's post), rather than investing in people with proven track records of bad investments.

[Scott]

2 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

The real solution is to provide free, public university education to everyone who wants it. Private schools can exist alongside just like they do for lower levels, but you'd need to pay for those. All employees would be public-sector.

I think this is a great idea.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

The fact of the matter is that a "university level" education should NOT be  requirement for 99% of all professions that currently do "mandate" them.   It's ludicrous that I needed 4+1 years of higher education to become a CPA.  All this does is feed the maw of the "Education Industrial Complex".

 

This is to say nothing of the morality of essentially forcing "kids" to take out loans to pay for this level of education that they really don't "need".

 

If loan forgiveness causes the whole rotten higher education system to collapse, then so be it!

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

23 minutes ago, Scott said:

As you well understand, the popular "basket weaving" trope describes the many students who took out huge loans to pursue careers that had no foreseeable chance of leading to repayment. Maybe basket weaving wasn't the major, but it may as well have been. Take out a loan if you've made a plan to pay it back.

Everybody has a plan until you get punched in the mouth.

 

It's easy to say today "have a plan, have a plan, have a plan", and basically predict what major with be financially lucrative enough 4 years into the future, and hope the economy doesn't tank. But I graduated in 2011, and there were guys with chemical engineering degrees (like me) who graduated in 2009/2010 who didn't find professional jobs for years, and I'm certain everyone between 28-35 who went to college right out of school knows people in similar situations. 

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

8 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Everybody has a plan until you get punched in the mouth.

 

It's easy to say today "have a plan, have a plan, have a plan", and basically predict what major with be financially lucrative enough 4 years into the future, and hope the economy doesn't tank. But I graduated in 2011, and there were guys with chemical engineering degrees (like me) who graduated in 2009/2010 who didn't find professional jobs for years, and I'm certain everyone between 28-35 who went to college right out of school knows people in similar situations. 

And again, we're asking children to make these significant risk-based decisions when all research indicates that our brains are incapable of this type of reasoning until about the age of 25.

[Scott]

One of my favorite quotes is from a friend and former classmate of mine: "I wouldn't let an 18 year old choose my drink for me at a bar - why did I let one pick my entire future?"

 

I still don't think you need a Mike Tyson shot to the mouth to realize that an English degree might have a hard time paying back $50k+ worth of loans, but I suppose the point is moot. Regardless of everything, life is tough enough without asking young people to navigate the treacherous waters of inflated tuition and predatory government lending. Makes one wonder where the guidance counselors and parents are. I'm guessing it'll take a generation or two before we catch up with the reality of higher ed in America these days. I still have family friends who shrug off the reality of their children's tuition - "ehh, they'll pay it off. Everyone does." I have a friend whose daughter is applying to dental school. I explained the difference in cost between in-state and out-of-state tuition (literally hundreds of thousands of dollars), and implored her to explain the situation to her daughter. Even after immediately hearing about how handcuffed her daughter could be, her response was, "well, all that money stuff is up to her. We're not paying it." A lot of folks are still waiting for that punch to the mouth.

[SilentWorld]

59 minutes ago, Scott said:

One of my favorite quotes is from a friend and former classmate of mine: "I wouldn't let an 18 year old choose my drink for me at a bar - why did I let one pick my entire future?"

 

I still don't think you need a Mike Tyson shot to the mouth to realize that an English degree might have a hard time paying back $50k+ worth of loans, but I suppose the point is moot. Regardless of everything, life is tough enough without asking young people to navigate the treacherous waters of inflated tuition and predatory government lending. Makes one wonder where the guidance counselors and parents are. I'm guessing it'll take a generation or two before we catch up with the reality of higher ed in America these days. I still have family friends who shrug off the reality of their children's tuition - "ehh, they'll pay it off. Everyone does." I have a friend whose daughter is applying to dental school. I explained the difference in cost between in-state and out-of-state tuition (literally hundreds of thousands of dollars), and implored her to explain the situation to her daughter. Even after immediately hearing about how handcuffed her daughter could be, her response was, "well, all that money stuff is up to her. We're not paying it." A lot of folks are still waiting for that punch to the mouth.

I think you're really underselling the benefits of education in general. An english lit degree is absolutely worth $50 grand when considering how much it benefits life time earnings. 

 

That being said, even if it wasn't, I'm still uncomfortable with the notion that only those born to wealthy families should be able to pursue a liberal arts education. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

You didn't answer my question though - are you okay with making all forms of debt inescapable, just like student loan debt? Mortgages, business loans (tied to the business owner(s)), etc? If people had to personally be responsible for all failed businesses (without using incorporation as an escape) then the economy would grind to a halt. So why should everyone but students (who are typically forced into loans while a minor) be able to escape their bad decisions?

Where are these business loans that don’t require a personal guarantee by the owners?

[Greatoneshere]

6 hours ago, Scott said:

As someone who just finished paying off $250,000 of school loan debt, I certainly do understand how it works, fuckyouverymuch. I didn't need a bailout to get it done, either.

 

You've constructed a false choice - it's not "help out these poor, sweet college kids who've been crushed by The Man" or "erect hate monuments." You're projecting your own emotional politics onto the situation.

 

And insofar as you believe it's "the taxpayers job to help a group of people out of a bad situation," I'm fine with tax dollars going toward hurricane victims or 911 first responders. Not so much for kids who figured that majoring in basket weaving at USC for 5 years was going to lead to a big payday.

 

1) You paying for your own debt doesn't mean you understand anyone else's position.

 

2) I didn't construct a false choice - you have no idea idea what I'm suggesting at all if you think that's the choice I'm presenting. Sounds more like you want my argument to be that false choice so it's easier to argue against me. Plenty of others have already responded to you with what I would say, but you just sound like an asshole given your response. "Emotional politics". Because caring is political.

 

The "border wall" is a hate monument, given the intent and spirit with which is it being billed. And statistically I'm pretty sure struggling college and post-college grads have a lot less power than the government or banks, so yeah, who has the power in this choice is quite clear, and what freer college intends to help curtail. No one said "college for all" or loan debt forgiveness is all we should do, everyone here wants systemic and institutional changes, but we can do multiple things at once. Again, context is everything.