Last debate

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

i really don't see the oil comments hurting biden in Texas. Just insane numbers there

 

[SaysWho?]

15 minutes ago, legend said:

 

He's fought a stutter his whole life. I don't like the idea of a very old president's either, but given that I'm not sure you can attribute it to declining cognition.

 

People forget that he called John Kerry "John Kennedy" in the 04 convention and called Barack Obama "Barack America" when introduced as Obama's running mate.

 

That's why "Poor Boys" was funny to me (and probably why people are running with that) and why this kind of running over words is what I expect from him.

[mclumber1]

While "poor boys" was probably a misspeak, it was also a good burn against the group.  lol

[Signifyin(g)Monkey]

1 hour ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

So telling everyone that Trump is the one with actual shady China and Ukraine dealings and Trump is just making up bullshit about Biden's Ukraine and China dealings isn't enough?

IMO, if you look at it through the eyes of a uninformed voter whose either not committed to a candidate or not yet committed to actually voting, it makes it seem like he doesn't really have an explanation, just a counter-accusation coupled with a blanket assertion that "I'm not a crook", which isn't all that convincing.

 

Flip it around--if it were Biden who initiated the mudslinging, and went after Trump about his Chinese bank accounts and dealings with China, and Trump just said "I don't have any dealings with China and you're just making stuff up; plus look at all the shady stuff you did with China and Ukraine", would it be all that convincing to an uninformed voter, much less to you? 

 

I don't think so; but the polls in the coming weeks will bare out the truth of it.  If there's no Trump surge then I'm either wrong or I'm correct but in the end it didn't matter at all.  I'm fine with either possibility.

[SaysWho?]

1 minute ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

IMO, if you look at it through the eyes of a uninformed voter whose either not committed to a candidate or not yet committed to actually voting, it makes it seem like he doesn't really have an explanation

 

You are the only person I've seen obsess over this more than Giuliani. Maybe the uncommitted voter doesn't care as much as you do.

[Keyser_Soze]

9 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

Flip it around--if it were Biden who initiated the mudslinging, and went after Trump about his Chinese bank accounts and dealings with China, and Trump just said "I don't have any dealings with China and you're just making stuff up; plus look at all the shady stuff you did with China and Ukraine", would it be all that convincing to an uninformed voter, much less to you? 

 

I don't think so;

 

But minus the mudslinging this is what happened.

[SuperSpreader]

I think if Biden engages the charges too much it looks like he's defensive and hiding something. He plays it right without giving Trump any new ammo. 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Coronavirus and a quarter of a million dead, economic depression (for working class folks), health care being either inaccessible or too costly for Americans, and the western united states is on fire due in part to climate change, racial and economic inequality, but SM here posting about hunter Biden's fucking emails like anyone gives a shit.

 

Just look at poll after poll on what people are concerned about! I'll give you a hint: I just named the top issues as indicated by polling!

 

 

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Seriously you need to check your media consumption sources/habits

[Signifyin(g)Monkey]

Just now, SaysWho? said:

 

You are the only person I've seen obsess over this more than Giuliani. Maybe the uncommitted voter doesn't care as much as you do.

I'm talking about both uncommitted voters and voters who might favor one candidate but can be convinced to sit out election day because they're not all that enthused about the candidate they do favor.

 

From where things stand right now, in order to win Trump needs to do well with both of these groups.  I.e., win at least a decent portion of the itsy bitsy slice of voters who are not committed, but more importantly depress turnout for Biden.  (turnout's going to be high for both candidates, it's a matter of the margin between them)

 

Really the only thing he has left is to use the Hunter laptop shit to paint Joe as just another 'swamp creature'.  It's not irrational to worry that an ineffective response to this strategy might be enough to eke Trump to victory in just the right swing states.  Haven't we all been saying that one of the big differences between Hillary and Joe is that the latter scores much higher on likability?  If that advantage is lost, another 2016-ish upset becomes more feasible.  

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

My one regret from Biden's performance last night was that even though his apology for his support for the 1980s crime bills was welcome, it came off somewhat "bloodless".

 

I would've coached him to say something along the lines of:

 

"I made a severe, morally inexcusable mistake in supporting those crime bills in the 1980s that did irreparable harm to thousands of African-American men, their families, and their communities.  That was a mistake for which I can make no apology nor make any amends that would even begin to set things right or heal those lives that I had a role in breaking.  What I can do now is to make sure that such a mistake never happens again."

 

And I really do think that Biden could pull off that kind of rhetoric.
 

 

[Signifyin(g)Monkey]

13 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Coronavirus and a quarter of a million dead, economic depression (for working class folks), health care being either inaccessible or too costly for Americans, and the western united states is on fire due in part to climate change, racial and economic inequality, but SM here posting about hunter Biden's fucking emails like anyone gives a shit.

 

Just look at poll after poll on what people are concerned about! I'll give you a hint: I just named the top issues as indicated by polling!

 

 

 

Notice corruption isn't on there.  There isn't a 'rolling average' of polls asking about corruption, but you can find polls that rank it as a huge concern, and it was certainly one of the biggest issues before the pandemic.

 

http://thehill.com//apple-touch-icon.png Poll: Voters list a corrupt political establishment as a 'big

THEHILL.COM

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Voters view a corrupt political establishment as a bigger problem than both healthcare and gun violence, according to a new Hill-HarrisX poll.

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

3 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said:

Notice corruption isn't on there.  There isn't a 'rolling average' of polls asking about corruption, but you can find polls that rank it as a huge concern, and it was certainly one of the biggest issues before the pandemic.

 

http://thehill.com//apple-touch-icon.png Poll: Voters list a corrupt political establishment as a 'big

THEHILL.COM

---

Voters view a corrupt political establishment as a bigger problem than both healthcare and gun violence, according to a new Hill-HarrisX poll.

 

A poll like this is different than an open ended poll where the respondent decides, as opposed to a predetermined list.

 

Most Important Problem

NEWS.GALLUP.COM

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What do you think is the most important problem facing this country today? [Open-ended]

 

 

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

You can't act like the problems pre covid are the same because of one simple fact: covid is still here, it's still a top concern for most people, and it's as bad as it is because in large part due to trump!

 

Trying to both sides some nebulous "swamp creature" argument is dumb as hell when your material needs, like being able to safely see your fucking grandparents, are not even at the same level as 9 months ago.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

30 minutes ago, Emperor Diocletian II said:

My one regret from Biden's performance last night was that even though his apology for his support for the 1980s crime bills was welcome, it came off somewhat "bloodless".

 

I would've coached him to say something along the lines of:

 

"I made a severe, morally inexcusable mistake in supporting those crime bills in the 1980s that did irreparable harm to thousands of African-American men, their families, and their communities.  That was a mistake for which I can make no apology nor make any amends that would even begin to set things right or heal those lives that I had a role in breaking.  What I can do now is to make sure that such a mistake never happens again."

 

And I really do think that Biden could pull off that kind of rhetoric.

 

Damn - I'm such a good writer!  I REALLY impressed myself here!

[Keyser_Soze]

5 minutes ago, Emperor Diocletian II said:

 

Damn - I'm such a good writer!  I REALLY impressed myself here!

 

Nowhere in that speech does it say, "I should be crucified upside down for my atrocities of the 1980s but if you nominate me as president when my term is up you may do so if you still do not forgive me."

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

 

 

[Guest]

It’s the economy, stupid. I would wager a significant amount of angst regarding Covid is really about the economic impact.
 

It why I’m befuddled that Trump hasn’t pushed for more stimulus bills. It’s legal bribery right now.

[CitizenVectron]

Just to be clear, Biden openly said he wants a $15 federal minimum wage during the debate?

 

Also, can the federal government set a minimum wage, or does it only apply to federally-employed and/or regulated entities?

[Jason]

Just now, CitizenVectron said:

Just to be clear, Biden openly said he wants a $15 federal minimum wage during the debate?

 

Also, can the federal government set a minimum wage, or does it only apply to federally-employed and/or regulated entities?

 

The feds can set the baseline and then stages and cities can go higher. It hasn't been raised in forever though. 

[CitizenVectron]

Just now, sblfilms said:

It’s the economy, stupid. I would wager a significant amount of angst regarding Covid is really about the economic impact.
 

It why I’m befuddled that Trump hasn’t pushed for more stimulus bills. It’s legal bribery right now.

 

If he were a smarter man (or if his team were smarter) they would have bumped up federal EI relief even higher and kept pumping out bailout checks to people and small businesses. He maybe could have turned it around (his political chances).

[Guest]

Just now, CitizenVectron said:

Just to be clear, Biden openly said he wants a $15 federal minimum wage during the debate?

 

Also, can the federal government set a minimum wage, or does it only apply to federally-employed and/or regulated entities?

The federal government has a minimum wage, and nobody can be paid less than it. States can pass minimum wages that are higher if they wish, and many do.

[mclumber1]

There should be no minimum wage.  Instead, every citizen and legal resident should receive a monthly dividend payment, regardless of your current employment situation or how much income you make.  Whether you make $0 an hour or $10,000, everyone gets the same amount. 

[CitizenVectron]

2 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

The federal government has a minimum wage, and nobody can be paid less than it. States can pass minimum wages that are higher if they wish, and many do.

 

Thanks! I wasn't sure how it worked. In Canada, wage-laws are entirely provincial with the exception of federally-regulated industries, where the federal government sets the rules (airlines, etc). While I do believe that wages should generally be tied to cost of living in an area (someone working at McDonald's in downtown NYC should probably make more than the same job in Fargo, ND), I also think it's important to have a base level nationally.

[CayceG]

2 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

There should be no minimum wage.  Instead, every citizen and legal resident should receive a monthly dividend payment, regardless of your current employment situation or how much income you make.  Whether you make $0 an hour or $10,000, everyone gets the same amount. 

 

In order to determine where you fall on just how much of a safety net the government should provide, what is the monthly dividend amount you believe should be provided?

[marioandsonic]

2 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

There should be no minimum wage.  Instead, every citizen and legal resident should receive a monthly dividend payment, regardless of your current employment situation or how much income you make.  Whether you make $0 an hour or $10,000, everyone gets the same amount. 

 

So like a universal base income?

[CitizenVectron]

I'm a big believer in UBI, but I also know it can't replace all of the safety net. For a healthy individual it would work, but what about someone who requires assisted care or special living facilities? There still needs to be additional programs in place for some groups of people who wouldn't be able to survive on $1,000 or $2,000/mo and can't work to supplement that income. But I do think UBI is a good fix for inequality, as you can easily tax it back at the top, and the money given to the bottom will immediately re-enter the economy anyway.

[mclumber1]

8 minutes ago, CayceG said:

 

In order to determine where you fall on just how much of a safety net the government should provide, what is the monthly dividend amount you believe should be provided?

 

That's a good question.  Maybe what every the poverty line is currently considered?  Taxes would of course go up to compensate for the increased spending, and at some income level you'd eventually break even (IE you end up paying in as much in taxes as you got with the dividend).

[mclumber1]

10 minutes ago, marioandsonic said:

 

So like a universal base income?

 

Yeah

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

17 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

If he were a smarter man (or if his team were smarter) they would have bumped up federal EI relief even higher and kept pumping out bailout checks to people and small businesses. He maybe could have turned it around (his political chances).

This only works if you think covid is a problem, and don't downplay it and say "it'll be over soon, were turning a corner and opening up, get back to work"

[mclumber1]

5 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

I'm a big believer in UBI, but I also know it can't replace all of the safety net. For a healthy individual it would work, but what about someone who requires assisted care or special living facilities? There still needs to be additional programs in place for some groups of people who wouldn't be able to survive on $1,000 or $2,000/mo and can't work to supplement that income. But I do think UBI is a good fix for inequality, as you can easily tax it back at the top, and the money given to the bottom will immediately re-enter the economy anyway.

 

Right.  But it truly needs to be universal.  No qualifiers.  It doesn't matter how much money you make - you get a check. 

[PaladinSolo]

UBI only works if you have a full safety net, housing, health insurance, ect... otherwise it has to be enough to pay for all of that.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Universalist programs (like ubi and M4A) take power from employers and truly give workers agency, so that's how you know it will never happen here

[CitizenVectron]

1 minute ago, mclumber1 said:

 

Right.  But it truly needs to be universal.  No qualifiers.  It doesn't matter how much money you make - you get a check. 

 

I agree. No qualifiers, but I am also okay with effectively taxing it all back from people at the top by just raising income tax amounts by X% above X amount.

 

1 minute ago, PaladinSolo said:

UBI only works if you have a full safety net, housing, health insurance, ect... otherwise it has to be enough to pay for all of that.

 

Agreed. Unless UBI is set at something like $4,000/mo (pre-tax), then you are going to need supplemental supports. And even then, it should also be party based on location (unless the goal is to encourage people to move away from the most expensive urban centres).

[Guest]

UBI only makes sense if you believe in using market economics for basic things. But most people who say they like UBI also don’t believe in using market economics for basic things. Seems like you would be better off with government directly paying for basic needs if you don’t like how markets work.