Sony Sony President indicates desire to "aggressively" improve margins by releasing first-party titles to other platforms

[AbsolutSurgen]

24 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

This is really where the industry should be heading... game consoles should be basically like TV's or DVD players. Different companies could make them, but they play everything (except Nintendo). Console exclusves hurt the business more than help, especially with game development being so expensive. Imagine if Sony movies and music ONLY worked on Sony devices... it's a stupid business model.

 

 

[stepee]

16 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

This is really where the industry should be heading... game consoles should be basically like TV's or DVD players. Different companies could make them, but they play everything (except Nintendo). Console exclusves hurt the business more than help, especially with game development being so expensive. Imagine if Sony movies and music ONLY worked on Sony devices... it's a stupid business model.

 

I would love it. Nintendo can be thought of as a separate toy but everything else I always liked the idea of buying a game one time and then being able to use it on whatever device you choose. It’s not something a lot of publishers would like if it worked that way since they couldn’t get double dips - but it’s something Sony, MS, and Valve could essentially force on them with an agreed upon shared standard.

 

And as technology improves? The standard updates. Just like dvd to blu-ray to ultra blu ray. There could still be generations. Or since these things are all pc’s now anyway, just do it the same way it’s done there. It would also probably I feel like developers could save resources because they already optimize for a range of pcs and this would be no different.

 

I’d figure the best of these universal consoles would be building Steam OS like interfaces and the developers behind those machines would be able to create presets for the games when detected so they work best on the device without the user having to adjust settings so it’s exactly like a console (but still give options just like consoles now do)

 

Or just create an exact hardware specification and update it every 5 years or so and then games can use the new standard and also be BC for the old standard if a developer wants, which might be easier :P

 

Im just spitballing some ideas that could be done, but Im sure it could be figure out.

 

Its what I love about these of handhelds - buy one copy of the game - play it on my desktop hooked up to my tv, play it on my handhelds, play it on my laptop.

[Xbob42]

34 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

This is really where the industry should be heading... game consoles should be basically like TV's or DVD players. Different companies could make them, but they play everything (except Nintendo). Console exclusves hurt the business more than help, especially with game development being so expensive. Imagine if Sony movies and music ONLY worked on Sony devices... it's a stupid business model.

I've been saying this almost verbatim for years! I think the concept of exclusives is dumb as shit. 

 

Also:

 

[best3444]

Why would Sony advertise that they aren't releasing any big existing franchise titles until March 2025? How does that help them financially?

[Xbob42]

Just now, best3444 said:

Why would Sony advertise that they aren't releasing any big existing franchise titles until March 2025? How does that help them financially?

Alright so you know how Nintendo is good at business?

 

Sony is the opposite of that, they've just kind of been coasting on "let's keep doing everything the same, forever" for like a decade. Gamers are creatures of habit, so this largely works, but if you watch the small stuff they do all the time, you'll see they're just absolute numbnuts.

[SaysWho?]

4 minutes ago, best3444 said:

Why would Sony advertise that they aren't releasing any big existing franchise titles until March 2025? How does that help them financially?

 

They're not advertising it; it's an earnings meeting. They're saying it amongst each other, and lying in an earnings meeting is punishable.

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Mr.Vic20 said:

True, it’s just weird for Sony to be referring to PS5 as "latter stage", considering they like to overlap hardware generations. I consider PS5 to be mid life cycle. 

I wonder if he meant in terms of product life cycle since Sony has revised lower sale targets for this year and doesn’t expect to see any future growth with this hardware. 

[Mr.Vic20]

1 minute ago, Brian said:

I wonder if he meant in terms of product life cycle since Sony has revised lower sale targets for this year and doesn’t expect to see any future growth with this hardware. 

Oh, maybe, but it’s weird wording. Then again, translations can always cause trouble! 

[best3444]

8 minutes ago, SaysWho? said:

 

They're not advertising it; it's an earnings meeting. They're saying it amongst each other, and lying in an earnings meeting is punishable.

 

I didn't catch this. Ok, this makes sense. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

12 minutes ago, best3444 said:

Why would Sony advertise that they aren't releasing any big existing franchise titles until March 2025? How does that help them financially?

 

As @SaysWho? said, it's not an advertisement - this information was included in the quarterly earnings report which always includes references to events that could materially impact future earnings.

[skillzdadirecta]

32 minutes ago, crispy4000 said:

 

If someone’s going to charge for online play and collect 30% royalties, it might as well be them.
 

So it follows that you make competitive moves to draw/keep more people to your platform…

 

And that made sense when game development didn't cost as much as it does now... but when you have videogames costing as much to make as blockbuster movies, then you'd want to be able to sell those games on as many platforms as you can. Movies, TV Shows and music ARE ALWAYS GENERATING MONEY long after their initial release. It's why actors and other creatives can live off of residuals. Videogames? Not so much. They have to make most of their money from initial sales so it would stand to reason, you would want to get as many sales as you can. The logical move would be to do away with console exclusives. Again, if Sony movies only worked on Sony devices, they would be leaving as TON of money on the table... which is dumb.

[skillzdadirecta]

32 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

 

 

Cute..but I guess words don't mean anything when folks are trying (and failing) to be clever

 

Quote

game consoles should be basically like TV's or DVD players.

I specifically said "GAME CONSOLES" for a reason.

[AbsolutSurgen]

A game console is really just a PC that has been locked down by a manufacturer to only run software from their online store/proprietary media.

[skillzdadirecta]

33 minutes ago, stepee said:

Or just create an exact hardware specification and update it every 5 years or so and then games can use the new standard and also be BC for the old standard if a developer wants, which might be easier

This is what the 3D0 was TRYING to do for those that remember. The concept was ahead of its time but I think it's time to revisit that model. Sony can't maintain these AAA experiences at the cost without increasing revenue somehow. I think the beancounters at these big companies are starting to come to the same conclusion. Exclusives hurt the bottom line... they don't help. I mean they're saying Spiderman 2 was barely profitable and that game was NOT a flop sales wise by any means.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 minute ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

A game console is really just a PC that has been locked down by a manufacturer to only run software from their online store/proprietary media.

Oh I can do my taxes on my Xbox? Or I can edit on PS5 and use it for work? I was not aware of that. Next thing you're gonna tell me is my smart phone is a PC too 

[AbsolutSurgen]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

Oh I can do my taxes on my Xbox? Or I can edit on PS5 and use it for work? I was not aware of that. Next thing you're gonna tell me is my smart phone is a PC too 

If Xbox would put the TurboTax app on their store, or let you install Windows on it, you absolutely could.  

[skillzdadirecta]

Just now, AbsolutSurgen said:

If Xbox would put the TurboTax app on their store, or let you install Windows on it, you absolutely could.  

But they haven't and you can't so why are we having this discussion. There's a difference between consoles and PC's... stop being silly and stay on topic.

[legend]

1 hour ago, skillzdadirecta said:

This is really where the industry should be heading... game consoles should be basically like TV's or DVD players. Different companies could make them, but they play everything (except Nintendo). Console exclusves hurt the business more than help, especially with game development being so expensive. Imagine if Sony movies and music ONLY worked on Sony devices... it's a stupid business model.

 

A lot of people have echoed and expanded on what you said here, so my reply is to them too, but just quoting you seems easier  

 

The main issue with gaming not be able to adopt the DVD/Music frameworks is that gaming is a *vastly* more volatile technology. Yes, you can have better or worse speakers, but the core functioning of the media will work the same across devices because that level of technology is heavily codified.

 

Gaming, not so. New tech develops every year and it's complex enough that it doesn't "just work" on different hardware. The primary advantage consoles have over PC is fixed hardware targets. (Even if you have a pro unit, that's not much more to design against compares to PC).

 

Without fixed hardware targets, the volatility of the technology means there will be problems. What you end up with is exactly what we already have: the PC market. The scene is more stable today than it was before, but it's still not perfect. And while many of us are happy enough to deal with those issues (I primarily game on PC), it's still a problem for large portions of the population.

 

But hey, if the game industry wants to try this and decides linux is the neutral territory, thereby making linux more viable for gaming, I won't complain!

[stepee]

3 minutes ago, legend said:

 

A lot of people have echoed and expanded on what you said here, so my reply is to them too, but just quoting you seems easier  

 

The main issue with gaming not be able to adopt the DVD/Music frameworks is that gaming is a *vastly* more volatile technology. Yes, you can have better or worse speakers, but the core functioning of the media will work the same across devices because that level of technology is heavily codified.

 

Gaming, not so. New tech develops every year and it's complex enough that it doesn't "just work" on different hardware. The primary advantage consoles have over PC is fixed hardware targets. (Even if you have a pro unit, that's not much more to work with).

 

Without fixed hardware targets, the volatility of the technology means there will be problems. What you end up with is exactly what we already have: the PC market. The scene is more stable today than it was before, but it's still not perfect. And while many of us are happy enough to deal with those issues (I primarily game on PC), it's still a problem for large portions of the population.

 

But hey, if the game industry wants to try this and decides linux is the neutral territory, thereby making linux more viable for gaming, I won't complain!

 

Well one of my ideas was TO have fixed hardware targets! The standard includes a fixed hardware target and all console makers follow that. Then when technology advances enough the group behind the standard would update it to a new spec and people making the universal consoles/handhelds etc can create new machines that follow the new standard. This is kind of the 3D0 idea as skillz said.

 

My other more pc like standard would still address the ease of use by having the device makers work that on the UI level to make sure the settings are set best for the device. Steam OS is pretty close to there for actual supported games/features as far as never having to really troubleshoot things. The times I do have to is 99% of the time due to me trying to run things that aren’t verified.  This is probably a slight modification on the Steambox idea. The standard would essentially be the minimum requirement for the game. The standard would be more like a verification seal the device would get by the group behind the standard. 
 

I think the latter wouldn’t work well for casuals but could be a good middle ground for people who don’t want to use a Streaming service which the ultra casuals could use! But that same streaming license for the game would be valid for a device should they get one later as long as that device meets the minimum requirement standard. 

 

Or something! I’m not sure if we are quite there yet but I do think we are close especially as we get cloud as a backup for people. Cloud I think could work like how when you buy a disc today it includes a digital copy. You essentially get a license that works on all devices that can actually run it.

 

I think the companies can figure it out soon if they want to :P

[AbsolutSurgen]

4 minutes ago, stepee said:

 

Well one of my ideas was TO have fixed hardware targets! The standard includes a fixed hardware target and all console makers follow that. Then when technology advances enough the group behind the standard would update it to a new spec and people making the universal consoles/handhelds etc can create new machines that follow the new standard. This is kind of the 3D0 idea as skillz said.

 

My other more pc like standard would still address the ease of use by having the device makers work that on the UI level to make sure the settings are set best for the device. Steam OS is pretty close to there for actual supported games/features as far as never having to really troubleshoot things. The times I do have to is 99% of the time due to me trying to run things that aren’t verified.  This is probably a slight modification on the Steambox idea. The standard would essentially be the minimum requirement for the game. The standard would be more like a verification seal the device would get by the group behind the standard. 
 

I think the latter wouldn’t work well for casuals but could be a good middle ground for people who don’t want to use a Streaming service which the ultra casuals could use! But that same streaming license for the game would be valid for a device should they get one later as long as that device meets the minimum requirement standard. 

 

Or something! I’m not sure if we are quite there yet but I do think we are close especially as we get cloud as a backup for people. Cloud I think could work like how when you buy a disc today it includes a digital copy. You essentially get a license that works on all devices that can actually run it.

 

I think the companies can figure it out soon if they want to :P

The SteamDeck is essentially a handheld SteamBox -- and would probably be considered a handheld console except for one thing.  Valve didn't lock it down -- and gave you access to the Linux interface so you can mod it to your hearts content.  You can even run TurboTax on it.

Xbox Series X is 100% a PC with a slimmed down version of Windows -- with a custom interface, and a custom app store.  It is, however, sold at an abnormally low price because MS makes its money on subscriptions and the 30% take on their app store.  If you separate the hardware from the app store like you would need to with an "open console" that runs everything -- you're back at the machines just being PCs.

[crispy4000]

4 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

And that made sense when game development didn't cost as much as it does now... but when you have videogames costing as much to make as blockbuster movies, then you'd want to be able to sell those games on as many platforms as you can. Movies, TV Shows and music ARE ALWAYS GENERATING MONEY long after their initial release. It's why actors and other creatives can live off of residuals. Videogames? Not so much. They have to make most of their money from initial sales so it would stand to reason, you would want to get as many sales as you can. The logical move would be to do away with console exclusives. Again, if Sony movies only worked on Sony devices, they would be leaving as TON of money on the table... which is dumb.

Call me crazy, but the costs of losing 30% royalties and PS+ Subscriptions from a lost console market monopoly probably aren’t worth as much as porting your mega expense games to one more (underperforming) platform.

 

Remember the stink Sony made over CoD? Royalties are a gargantuan portion of their buisness.

 

The logical answer is to stop making everything 1st party AAAA, as Ubisoft would describe it.

[skillzdadirecta]

1 hour ago, stepee said:

Well one of my ideas was TO have fixed hardware targets!

Pretty much what I'm saying. Basically just release a Console with fixed hardware targets (like current consoles) but all can be maunfactured by different companies. All of the software companies would develop for these machines with no exclusives. Pretty much what the 3D0 was trying to do like I said.

[legend]

1 hour ago, stepee said:

 

Well one of my ideas was TO have fixed hardware targets! The standard includes a fixed hardware target and all console makers follow that. Then when technology advances enough the group behind the standard would update it to a new spec and people making the universal consoles/handhelds etc can create new machines that follow the new standard. This is kind of the 3D0 idea as skillz said.

 

My other more pc like standard would still address the ease of use by having the device makers work that on the UI level to make sure the settings are set best for the device. Steam OS is pretty close to there for actual supported games/features as far as never having to really troubleshoot things. The times I do have to is 99% of the time due to me trying to run things that aren’t verified.  This is probably a slight modification on the Steambox idea. The standard would essentially be the minimum requirement for the game. The standard would be more like a verification seal the device would get by the group behind the standard. 
 

I think the latter wouldn’t work well for casuals but could be a good middle ground for people who don’t want to use a Streaming service which the ultra casuals could use! But that same streaming license for the game would be valid for a device should they get one later as long as that device meets the minimum requirement standard. 

 

Or something! I’m not sure if we are quite there yet but I do think we are close especially as we get cloud as a backup for people. Cloud I think could work like how when you buy a disc today it includes a digital copy. You essentially get a license that works on all devices that can actually run it.

 

I think the companies can figure it out soon if they want to :P

 

 

I think having a standard hardware set is hard and kind of at odds with the very idea that different manufacture's make different things with varying levels of quality. 

 

Maybe something that will help emphasize why gaming is different and harder to do is that TV and music are just data and the manufacturer is free to make any hardware and software they want to consume that data. Games are not just data, they're also software that has to directly interface with the hardware the manufacturer provides. Consequently it's hard to have manufacturer variation. And if there isn't manufacturer variation, there is really no point to make a single platform from the manufacturer's side.

 

 

Having a nice console like interface on PC is all well and good, but it's a separate matter from the problem I'm highlighting.

[Mr.Vic20]

Just now, skillzdadirecta said:

Pretty much what I'm saying. Basically just release a Console with fixed hardware targets (like current consoles) but all can be maunfactured by different companies. All of the software companies would develop for these machines with no exclusives. Pretty much what the 3D0 was trying to do like I said.

It’s time for Trip Hawkins to return and finally unleash the M2!

[skillzdadirecta]

I just looked up the 3D0 and they literally attempted what I'm talking about 30 years ago.

 

3DO Interactive Multiplayer - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

Quote

The 3DO Interactive Multiplayer, also referred to as simply 3DO, is a home video game console developed by The 3DO Company. Conceived by entrepreneur and Electronic Arts founder Trip Hawkins, the 3DO was not a console manufactured by the company itself, but a set of specifications, originally designed by Dave Needle and RJ Mical of New Technologies Group, that could be licensed by third parties. Panasonic produced the first models in 1993, and further renditions of the hardware were released afterwards by GoldStar, Sanyo, Creative Labs, and Samsung Electronics in 1997.

 

This business model was ahead of its time and may due for a revist... that's all I'm saying. Seems like the current model isn't sustainable.

[Remarkableriots]

@skillzdadirecta I remember the Jaguar coming out around the same time the 3DO did. Was that similar with what you're talking about? I remember them coming out way over priced compared to Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis which I think didn't help either system.

[skillzdadirecta]

3 minutes ago, Remarkableriots said:

@skillzdadirecta I remember the Jaguar coming out around the same time the 3DO did. Was that similar with what you're talking about? I remember them coming out way over priced compared to Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis which I think didn't help either system.

No tha Jaguar was strictly Atari. It was just another console. The 3D0 was a set of standards I believe. The 3D0 company came up with the specs and the tech and then licensed them to sevreral different companies to make. The 3D0 console was made by Panasonic, Samsung and several others. Like I said, the 3D0 was ahead of its time because it wasn't just a gaming box. They were trying to do what current consoles do now, but 30 years ago where the market wasn't as mature and videogames were still looked at as toys. That sticker shock was major reason why it failed but the market can definitely support something like this now.

[Remarkableriots]

One other thing about the Jaguar as a kid during that time was that I was thinking, Why the heck does it have so many buttons on the controller? I used to go to a mom-and-pop game store that let you try out games before you bought them. They had a few game systems hooked up to TVs with chairs. They even had the 3DO and Jaguar hooked up. It was just something I recalled from when I was a teenager.

[Mr.Vic20]

I remember trying one before being told it was 700USD! I was like, cool but it’s never gonna happen!they came down in price and started building a library but by then it was too late.

[Remarkableriots]

I was looking and I vaguely remember Philips CD-i which came out before those two?

[Mr.Vic20]

The problem with the 3DO model is that the there is little incentive or profit margin in selling what amounts to a small form factor PC. The next issue is who is developing and managing the unifying OS? Steam boxes were the last attempt at this and they didn’t go over well either, and Valve was already providing the OS element. It's a great idea for the consumer but it looks uninviting from a business perspective. 

[stepee]

20 minutes ago, legend said:

 

 

I think having a standard hardware set is hard and kind of at odds with the very idea that different manufacture's make different things with varying levels of quality. 

 

Maybe something that will help emphasize why gaming is different and harder to do is that TV and music are just data and the manufacturer is free to make any hardware and software they want to consume that data. Games are not just data, they're also software that has to directly interface with the hardware the manufacturer provides. Consequently it's hard to have manufacturer variation. And if there isn't manufacturer variation, there is really no point to make a single platform from the manufacturer's side.

 

 

Having a nice console like interface on PC is all well and good, but it's a separate matter from the problem I'm highlighting.

 

I think the point of a single standard with no manufacturer variation (the 3D0 method) is so Sony can have their system, Xbox their system, maybe even the chips inside (bulky) tvs! And they can all play the same games, or you can play those games online. What I didn’t think about as I was spitballing are manufacturing costs. I’m not sure how that works on a supply line level.

 

But what's funny is with the last two systems, they are so close, they practically are already on the same hardware platform! It’s almost not that different of an idea besides you would have cross buy essentially - and maybe other companies would make their own XboxPS’s.

 

As for my other idea, at the end of the day I don’t think Sony or MS or anyone will be interested in consoles soon as it’s not worth the investment and cost and Cloud will become more viable and that is what they will target along with PC. 
 

So, I think actually stream lined steam boxes or something like that are the best chance 10-15 years from now for people who still want local machines but don’t want the hassle of a typical Windows pc.

[AbsolutSurgen]

Sony and MS aren't in the console business.  They are in the subscription and royalty business, and so was 3DO (they were just more transparent about it).  The 3DO was a dismal failure -- and a big part of that was because of their business model.

 

Sony and MS largely sell their consoles at breakeven (and at times a small profit or loss).  They don't try to make money on hardware, so they sell it cheap.

 

The 3DO model was to license out a hardware spec -- and charge a licensing fee to the manufacturers, who also want to make a consumer electronics-like margin on the hardware.  This resulted in hardware that was significantly more expensive to the end consumer

 

As a customer -- if you buy something fom the 3DO model, instead of buying it at cost -- you are paying a margin to the hardware manufacturer plus a licensing cost to the "platform designer". 

 

Trip DID recognize that the money in the video game business wasn't in making hardware -- but getting licensing fees.  His implementation was terrible.  That's why a year later, another consumer electronics company entered the console market, and launched a CD-based console that was half the price of the 3DO -- and went on to be one of the most successful consoles only.  

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

4 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I mean they're saying Spiderman 2 was barely profitable and that game was NOT a flop sales wise by any means.

 

Just to clarify, we don't have any solid insight into Spider-Man 2's profitability as of yet. 

 

From the internal documents, we do know that Insomniac estimated that the game would need to sell 7.2 million units to break even and Sony just reported that the game has sold 10 million units, so it's safe to assume that the game has attained some degree of profitability. 

 

Furthermore, the internal Insomniac documents indicated an estimate of 11.6 million units sold  in its first 12 months, with expected lifetime sales amounting to 16.5 million units.  Obviously, the game is well on pace to exceed those estimates.

[Keyser_Soze]

2 hours ago, Remarkableriots said:

One other thing about the Jaguar as a kid during that time was that I was thinking, Why the heck does it have so many buttons on the controller? I used to go to a mom-and-pop game store that let you try out games before you bought them. They had a few game systems hooked up to TVs with chairs. They even had the 3DO and Jaguar hooked up. It was just something I recalled from when I was a teenager.

 

It's different for each game. Like it was kind of a mini keyboard. Like in AVP each button was for a weapon. Some were to strafe and another one to bring up the map.

 

I had a Jaguar BTW!