Keyser_Soze Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 6 hours ago, stepee said: Also due to that wait being longer, I did get those meta rayman smart subglasses today :P So at least I have SOMETHING with tech to wear on my face outside in public! edit: Im leaving that typo! I keep seeing commercials for these and all I can think of is perverts trying to record chicks in bathrooms or something. Rayman wouldn't approve of such a thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 12 hours ago, Spork3245 said: I think the main issue is the price. The OG iPhone was priced higher but not insanely dissimilar to competitors flagships ($499, or ~$700 in today’s post-pandemic inflation money) when it launched. While there were cheap $200-300 phones at the time, the iPhone wasn’t competing with them, it was competing with the N-Series Nokias (N95 was $600-700) and high end Blackberry phones (the 8800 was $400). You also need to keep in mind that in 2007 all the cell phone carriers would subsidize the hell out of phones via contracts to where I recall the iPhone being like $300ish with a 3 year contract shortly (6-ish months) after launch (and the 8800 was priced down similarly with a contract iirc). At launch, I think it may have been the $499 + contract, but it’s still not all too comparable to the price leap on the Vision Pro when compared to its competitors. I’m expecting “non-Pro” versions to come in a good amount cheaper with the Pro being used as a “hype” piece for the people that don’t want to (or can’t) drop $3500 on what is essentially a toy. Pricing in the VR/AR market is fairly complicated right now. The range is enormous. But certainly the AVP is a hell of a lot more expensive than a quest. Interestingly, it's still substantially cheaper than what an original Mac cost if you adjust to today's dollars (about half the price). But yes, the price will be hard for mass market and I don't think Apple intends to capture that on this round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 13 minutes ago, legend said: Pricing in the VR/AR market is fairly complicated right now. The range is enormous. But certainly the AVP is a hell of a lot more expensive than a quest. Interestingly, it's still substantially cheaper than what an original Mac cost if you adjust to today's dollars (about half the price). But yes, the price will be hard for mass market and I don't think Apple intends to capture that on this round. I’d love a hybrid of the Valve Index and PSVR2 that is fully wireless + stand alone. I got to try an Index and the FOV is pretty insane, but needing the base stations for tracking is one of the reasons why I’d never get one (because I already have a Vive). The PSVR2 haptics, eye tracking, and room scanning is down right nutty, not to mention HDR OLED screen(s). But, yea, just the headset for the Index costs like $750 (no controllers, no base stations) and that needs a PC to run. VR is definitely in a weird space right now, and I’m not expecting an Apple standalone headset to price like a Quest, of course, but maybe they should’ve targeted $1.5k or so? I dunno 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepee Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 12 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said: I keep seeing commercials for these and all I can think of is perverts trying to record chicks in bathrooms or something. Rayman wouldn't approve of such a thing! What no, that is much easier to do sliding the phone under the stall 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepee Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 4 minutes ago, Spork3245 said: I’d love a hybrid of the Valve Index and PSVR2 that is fully wireless + stand alone. I got to try an Index and the FOV is pretty insane, but needing the base stations for tracking is one of the reasons why I’d never get one (because I already have a Vive). The PSVR2 haptics, eye tracking, and room scanning is down right nutty, not to mention HDR OLED screen(s). But, yea, just the headset for the Index costs like $750 (no controllers, no base stations) and that needs a PC to run. VR is definitely in a weird space right now, and I’m not expecting an Apple standalone headset to price like a Quest, of course, but maybe they should’ve targeted $1.5k or so? I dunno The thing with the Vision is that it’s not really designed to be a VR headset, it is a vr headset but it’s designed for AR mixed reality applications, but doesn’t have a good form factor for that. Eventually these things will be doing all these VR/AR/XR/Spacial Computing functions in one unit, but the Vision seems almost unique in how much it isn’t really suited for VR or AR. Usually they seem to be targeting either VR first and foremost with a headset and gaming applications or light weight AR glasses. It seems designed for enterprise applications (and is priced like that) but then advertised to consumers to watch 3D movies right now, it’s in a weird place. But so is the entire industry and who knows maybe tackling it this way gets them there faster and/or they just needed SOME device out there to start with and start getting their interface polished. They also had troubles as we know with getting these devices out. With at one point there being a VR and AR headset and one of them being canceled (I’m not sure which!) so I get a feeling this isn’t exactly what Apple wanted either. We know from reporting reducing the heft is a big immediate priority for them and they also aren’t happy with the power, so it’s one very good reason to wait. 36 minutes ago, legend said: Pricing in the VR/AR market is fairly complicated right now. The range is enormous. But certainly the AVP is a hell of a lot more expensive than a quest. Interestingly, it's still substantially cheaper than what an original Mac cost if you adjust to today's dollars (about half the price). But yes, the price will be hard for mass market and I don't think Apple intends to capture that on this round. AVP is Alien vs Predator! Apple doesn’t get to take it, Vision is only 3 more characters! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 17 minutes ago, stepee said: The thing with the Vision is that it’s not really designed to be a VR headset, it is a vr headset but it’s designed for AR mixed reality applications, but doesn’t have a good form factor for that. Eventually these things will be doing all these VR/AR/XR/Spacial Computing functions in one unit, but the Vision seems almost unique in how much it isn’t really suited for VR or AR. Usually they seem to be targeting either VR first and foremost with a headset and gaming applications or light weight AR glasses. It seems designed for enterprise applications (and is priced like that) but then advertised to consumers to watch 3D movies right now, it’s in a weird place. But so is the entire industry and who knows maybe tackling it this way gets them there faster and/or they just needed SOME device out there to start with and start getting their interface polished. They also had troubles as we know with getting these devices out. With at one point there being a VR and AR headset and one of them being canceled (I’m not sure which!) so I get a feeling this isn’t exactly what Apple wanted either. We know from reporting reducing the heft is a big immediate priority for them and they also aren’t happy with the power, so it’s one very good reason to wait. AVP is Alien vs Predator! Apple doesn’t get to take it, Vision is only 3 more characters! TBH, it’s a shame that MS stopped the consumer Hololense development once they got that huge military contract or AR would probably be in a much different place right now 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepee Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 1 minute ago, Spork3245 said: TBH, it’s a shame that MS stopped the consumer Hololense development once they got that huge military contract or AR would probably be in a much different place right now I’ll never get to play that conker game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 1 hour ago, Spork3245 said: TBH, it’s a shame that MS stopped the consumer Hololense development once they got that huge military contract or AR would probably be in a much different place right now I tried a hololens back in like 2015 or something and though it was very primitive, it did make me very excited for AR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 34 minutes ago, legend said: I tried a hololens back in like 2015 or something and though it was very primitive, it did make me very excited for AR. Yea, the og was not prime time, but we’d be talking about 9 years of refinement 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Have both and the nod goes to Quest 3. Amazing how far this stuff has come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Pretty much every user review/impression of the Vision Pro: OMG, 3D movies are amazing! Everyone who bought high-end TVs pre-2017: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinIon Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 As I've been watching the reviews come out for the vision pro, I can't help but think it combines a number of issues we've seen from past Apple launches, but it feels so much further away from being a mass consumer product. The price is obviously a deal breaker for most people, and it's not super clear to me how much they can actually get it down in the near term. They can obviously cut down on the exterior screen, some materials work, and maybe they can find ways to track as well with fewer cameras, but if it's going to have Apple quality, it's hard to imagine them getting rid of the screens or all the processing required. That's where so much of the cost is, and that doesn't seem like it'll change in the next couple years. I don't expect a $1500 Apple Vision consumer version anytime soon. Like the Apple Watch, the biggest question is use case. It's just difficult to entirely grasp what Apple thinks people will use this for, but the barriers to entry are so much higher here. For the watch, there was always a base level of utility, and having a watch you need to charge isn't that a big deal. Wearing a pair of heavy ski goggles is a lot to ask, and if all you get for that is the ability to watch movies and use your mac, that doesn't seem like enough. It's not really even the best way to use your mac, given the limit of only a single monitor window. I'm typing now on a 48" OLED with a 27" portrait monitor on the side. I'd be losing so much screen real estate by using the AVP, but so would anyone who uses multiple monitors. They're really hyping up the media capabilities, and I'll admit that it does appeal to me. I've wanted a VR headset to be the best way to watch something since I got my DK2, and it seems like the AVP is close or there. This price obviously doesn't make any sense if that is your primary use case, but it's certainly nice to have. The lack of any kind of controller feels like Apple's insistence that they shouldn't have a stylus for the iPad. Yeah, I think the eye+hand controls are great for plenty of things, but I still feel like it's inevitable they put out some kind of controllers. It's Apple's aversion to games that does them another disservice here. Obviously they don't want to sell a machine specifically for games, but even if Meta has bigger aspirations for VR, right now games are the best use case for a VR headset, and controllers are just a natural part of that. The hugely positive way that the AVP is reminiscent of other Apple launches is in just how much better the UX is than the competition. From what I've seen this is easily comparable to the jump from Windows Mobile / Blackberry to iOS. Apple has quickly shown in their first gen product that these devices don't need to be painful and difficult to use. It was easy to forgive little Oculus for not having it all figured out, but Meta has now owned them for nearly a decade, and the UX is bad. It took a few years for alternatives to iOS to reach a similar level of UX polish, and I think it's going to take even longer here, given who is in the space. I still just can't get over the use case. I really feel like Apple is ceding that to developers and hope they figure it out, because even if this thing was $1000, I don't know who I'd recommend it to. I wouldn't recommend it to someone who just wanted a better way to use their computer. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to gamers. If you don't live alone, it's hard to recommend it just for media. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinIon Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 I went and did the in store demo for the Vision Pro, and it largely confirmed my expectations. Unfortunately my demo got cut short because they took 10 minutes to find the correct light shield size. It was also very overly controlled. The first thing I was told to do was open the Photos app. After doing so I started looking through photos and it seemed to really fluster my "guide." She wanted to specify every single action. Open this photo. Zoom this one. Look at this panorama, not the other one. Make this window bigger and that one smaller. Put this window to the right, not the left. It was irritating and overbearing to be so overly directed with every action and made it harder to get a good feel for the thing. That said, it was still very nice to actually get a chance to use the device. I used the solo knit band and it was comfortable enough for my short demo, but the headset was noticeably heavier than the Quest. Impossible to say after 20 minutes how comfortable it would be to use for hours, but I had no complaints during my demo. The screens are super impressive and really the highlight of the whole thing. The clarity is really excellent, especially with text. It really is a significant step up from my Quest 2 and the other headsets I've tried out. There are still issues like lens glare and some fringing on the edges, but overall it was by far the best I've ever seen. Video looked good enough that I might actually want to watch a movie with this thing, which is not the case for the Quest. Looking at photos was pretty cool, but I wish I could have seen some photos and panoramas that were not shot on an iPhone. iPhone photos look great on an iPhone, but this is an instance where more resolution probably would have helped. The spatial video shot with the vision pro was pretty impressive with excellent depth, but the video from an iPhone was a let down with minimal 3D effect. Apple's own 180 video was also less than impressive to someone who has seen a lot before. It's been true forever that immersive video is a lower quality than flat video, but through the relatively poor screens of past headsets, it was easy to let go. With the clarity of the vision pro, the lacking resolution was far more noticeable. Apple really didn't sell me on the need for their proprietary format. The UX is very well polished and responsive. The eye tracking is excellent, but I found it to be both most natural thing in the world while also being supremely unnatural. When you're doing major actions, like opening an app, eye tracking is great. I'm looking for a specific icon, I find it, and with a tap of my fingers I'm in. Really an excellent way to navigate a UI. When you have smaller actions, even in my short demo, it was easy to see where eye tracking could get cumbersome. With nearly all my other computing devices, I'm not intently watching my every input. I might push a mouse cursor up to a corner or swipe around my phone without necessarily looking at my input. For example, when I open Twitter, I know the home button is in the bottom left. I'll instinctively double tap it so I will go to the top, and once I am I might pull down to refresh. I'm not intently looking at the home button or looking anywhere in particular when doing this, I'm hardly even looking at my phone until the refresh is complete. With the Vision Pro, you need to look at that you're doing until the input is complete. The UI is so intuitive that it's easy to try and fly around it right away, but you really do need to take a beat and make sure you're still looking at the button you want to press when you press it. I think I kept looking at a button, starting the hand gesture, and looking away before I finished, forcing me to do it again. I also had a few times where it seemed to miss what I was looking at. I quickly got used to the idea that whenever I'd touch my fingers together, the vision would register it, but then I'd forget to keep my hands visible to my face. I was sitting at a table and just trying to get comfortable I put my hands in my lap under the table, which obviously meant my inputs were not registering. It all makes me feel like eye tracking is a great input for basic tasks, but very quickly I'd want something more. I would love to use a vision pro with both eye tracking and that wrist controller Meta showed off so long ago. Even if not that, I think having a controller of some kind, maybe even just a mouse, would make it feel much more complete. As impressive as the UI, eye tracking, and screen quality are, my concerns about use case remain. It just seems like a terribly cumbersome way to actually do work or use all the time. It feels most at home doing simple computing tasks that I might use my iPad for, but most of the time I'd probably rather have my iPad. It does seem like a nice media player, but it's so overkill for that and so much of my media consumption is with other people that buying one for plane rides would be a dramatic waste of money. I'm not convinced that this is a thing that needs to exist, but it is a great gadget. If it was $1000 I might have even bought one just to see what it's like to live with one. Priced as it is, it's very hard to imagine being worthwhile unless you have a very specific use case. I hope I'm wrong about how long it will take for something of this quality to get to $1000, but even at that price I wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know. TLDR: Amazing screens, excellent UX, but I have input concerns and don't see a clear use case, certainly nothing that justifies the price. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepee Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 30 minutes ago, TwinIon said: I went and did the in store demo for the Vision Pro, and it largely confirmed my expectations. Unfortunately my demo got cut short because they took 10 minutes to find the correct light shield size. It was also very overly controlled. The first thing I was told to do was open the Photos app. After doing so I started looking through photos and it seemed to really fluster my "guide." She wanted to specify every single action. Open this photo. Zoom this one. Look at this panorama, not the other one. Make this window bigger and that one smaller. Put this window to the right, not the left. It was irritating and overbearing to be so overly directed with every action and made it harder to get a good feel for the thing. That said, it was still very nice to actually get a chance to use the device. I used the solo knit band and it was comfortable enough for my short demo, but the headset was noticeably heavier than the Quest. Impossible to say after 20 minutes how comfortable it would be to use for hours, but I had no complaints during my demo. The screens are super impressive and really the highlight of the whole thing. The clarity is really excellent, especially with text. It really is a significant step up from my Quest 2 and the other headsets I've tried out. There are still issues like lens glare and some fringing on the edges, but overall it was by far the best I've ever seen. Video looked good enough that I might actually want to watch a movie with this thing, which is not the case for the Quest. Looking at photos was pretty cool, but I wish I could have seen some photos and panoramas that were not shot on an iPhone. iPhone photos look great on an iPhone, but this is an instance where more resolution probably would have helped. The spatial video shot with the vision pro was pretty impressive with excellent depth, but the video from an iPhone was a let down with minimal 3D effect. Apple's own 180 video was also less than impressive to someone who has seen a lot before. It's been true forever that immersive video is a lower quality than flat video, but through the relatively poor screens of past headsets, it was easy to let go. With the clarity of the vision pro, the lacking resolution was far more noticeable. Apple really didn't sell me on the need for their proprietary format. The UX is very well polished and responsive. The eye tracking is excellent, but I found it to be both most natural thing in the world while also being supremely unnatural. When you're doing major actions, like opening an app, eye tracking is great. I'm looking for a specific icon, I find it, and with a tap of my fingers I'm in. Really an excellent way to navigate a UI. When you have smaller actions, even in my short demo, it was easy to see where eye tracking could get cumbersome. With nearly all my other computing devices, I'm not intently watching my every input. I might push a mouse cursor up to a corner or swipe around my phone without necessarily looking at my input. For example, when I open Twitter, I know the home button is in the bottom left. I'll instinctively double tap it so I will go to the top, and once I am I might pull down to refresh. I'm not intently looking at the home button or looking anywhere in particular when doing this, I'm hardly even looking at my phone until the refresh is complete. With the Vision Pro, you need to look at that you're doing until the input is complete. The UI is so intuitive that it's easy to try and fly around it right away, but you really do need to take a beat and make sure you're still looking at the button you want to press when you press it. I think I kept looking at a button, starting the hand gesture, and looking away before I finished, forcing me to do it again. I also had a few times where it seemed to miss what I was looking at. I quickly got used to the idea that whenever I'd touch my fingers together, the vision would register it, but then I'd forget to keep my hands visible to my face. I was sitting at a table and just trying to get comfortable I put my hands in my lap under the table, which obviously meant my inputs were not registering. It all makes me feel like eye tracking is a great input for basic tasks, but very quickly I'd want something more. I would love to use a vision pro with both eye tracking and that wrist controller Meta showed off so long ago. Even if not that, I think having a controller of some kind, maybe even just a mouse, would make it feel much more complete. As impressive as the UI, eye tracking, and screen quality are, my concerns about use case remain. It just seems like a terribly cumbersome way to actually do work or use all the time. It feels most at home doing simple computing tasks that I might use my iPad for, but most of the time I'd probably rather have my iPad. It does seem like a nice media player, but it's so overkill for that and so much of my media consumption is with other people that buying one for plane rides would be a dramatic waste of money. I'm not convinced that this is a thing that needs to exist, but it is a great gadget. If it was $1000 I might have even bought one just to see what it's like to live with one. Priced as it is, it's very hard to imagine being worthwhile unless you have a very specific use case. I hope I'm wrong about how long it will take for something of this quality to get to $1000, but even at that price I wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know. TLDR: Amazing screens, excellent UX, but I have input concerns and don't see a clear use case, certainly nothing that justifies the price. Great impressions and yeah that is exactly what I figured as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
best3444 Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 I watched Ben Shapiro review the Vision Pro and he was blown away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remarkableriots Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Video of man wearing Apple Vision Pro prompts reminder from police to ‘cross streets the old-fashioned way’ WWW.NBCNEWS.COM San Diego police spoke out after footage surfaced showing the man walking across a street while accessing a virtual menu. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Game Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 @stepee Quote Also, we’re pleased to share that we are currently testing the ability for PS VR2 players to access additional games on PC to offer even more game variety in addition to the PS VR2 titles available through PS5. We hope to make this support available in 2024, so stay tuned for more updates. Coming soon to PS VR2 – Zombie Army VR, Little Cities: Bigger!, Wanderer: The Fragments of Fate, The Wizards – Dark Times: Brotherhood, and more BLOG.PLAYSTATION.COM Also Arizona Sunshine 2 free update released, new details on Soul Covenant. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 43 minutes ago, Hurricane Game said: @stepee Coming soon to PS VR2 – Zombie Army VR, Little Cities: Bigger!, Wanderer: The Fragments of Fate, The Wizards – Dark Times: Brotherhood, and more BLOG.PLAYSTATION.COM Also Arizona Sunshine 2 free update released, new details on Soul Covenant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 It's weird they always put the big news as a footnote on their blog posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 20 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said: It's weird they always put the big news as a footnote on their blog posts. It’s to make sure that you read the whole thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaysWho? Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 19 minutes ago, Spork3245 said: It’s to make sure that you read the whole thing! They know d1p reads their posts and want to help improve our deficiencies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 For Sony to make this move, do we think this signals the slowdown of support from Sony? It will be a travesty if Astro Bot 2 is never released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 26 minutes ago, Brian said: For Sony to make this move, do we think this signals the slowdown of support from Sony? It will be a travesty if Astro Bot 2 is never released. They never did PC support for PSVR1 so I don’t think that’s it. I think they just want to push more units and possibly put VR games on PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Game Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 It's a great bang for your buck if you have a ps5 and a pc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remarkableriots Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Sony is working on official PC support for the PS VR2 WWW.ENGADGET.COM Sony has confirmed that it's working on official PC support for its PS VR2 headset. It hopes to roll that out later this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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