General Gaming DF: Do we actually need pro consoles this gen?

[crispy4000]

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Text-based article:

 

Do we actually need PS5 Pro or Xbox enhanced consoles this generation?

WWW.EUROGAMER.NET

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Digital Foundry on the harsh realities facing console manufacturers - and gamers.

 

[stepee]

yes

[crispy4000]

Everything he says about market forces and chip design makes a lot of sense.

 

But in the totality of things, we're seeing both UE5 and RT suggest some inconvenient truths for the current crop of consoles.  The dream of developers being able to focus on just their vision, and not asset or lighting budgets, isn't likely to to come to fruition this gen.  Just look at how CPU heavy the Matrix demo is, or RT in Hitman 3.

I'd imagine there's a lot of internal discussions about whether 'next-gen' tech is even worth it on consoles beyond what the SSDs afford.  Even after the cross-gen period.  I'm somewhat surprised that Epic convinced as many AAA devs as they have to use UE5 given its current optimization woes.

But hey, at least FSR 2.0 is a thing now.

[XxEvil AshxX]

I don't even know how much I care about RT at this point. Don't get me wrong, it looks amazing when it's utilized properly, but developers have been faking it for so long, they've actually gotten quite good at it. It's one of those things where I'm usually fine with the baked in lighting if it means a good frame rate.

 

Hell, some developers still haven't figured out HDR. I have to turn it off in the Xbox system menus so that Elder Scrolls Online doesn't look like hot garbage, but then I forget to turn it back on and most of the time I don't even realize it until much later.

[Xbob42]

4 hours ago, XxEvil AshxX said:

I don't even know how much I care about RT at this point. Don't get me wrong, it looks amazing when it's utilized properly, but developers have been faking it for so long, they've actually gotten quite good at it. It's one of those things where I'm usually fine with the baked in lighting if it means a good frame rate.

Yeahhh no one's faked good reflections. Reflections have regressed horrendously. Old PS1/N64 games have better reflections than most modern games because they legit just had another room and character on the other side mimicking everything.

 

Nowadays it's extremely normal for a mirror in a game to show literally nothing. Just be a matte vaguely reflective texture, and I think that sucks shit. You can't sell me on a convincing believable world if you can't even get one of the basic things right. Hell, even in the visual showcase Cyberpunk 2077 the mirror still doesn't work unless you activate it and then it looks like a cat's butthole.

 

The one time we do normally get reflections is horrific screen-space reflections that just project information from the screen over a surface and the edges are usually cut off, the resolution is super low, the reflection makes no goddamn sense because that's not how reflections work, if the character is between the screen and the water they'll have a "reflection" outline which, if they're in the air, has the implication of a 300 foot reflection of them on the water's surface, etc.

 

With lighting, SOME devs have gotten pretty good at faking it, although many do a piss poor job with things like AO. But I think non-RT lighting is far more acceptable than non-RT reflections, which are in a fucking state right now and have been for like a decade.

[Guest]

I only care about 60fps minimum, and if it takes new hardware for that then so be it.

[stepee]

1 minute ago, sblfilms said:

I only care about 60fps minimum, and if it takes new hardware for that then so be it.

 

ya mid gen consoles are the only way to keep it how it is now (most everything console is 60fps) once we move past the cross gen period without seriously sacrificing IQ, and I’m diggggging that so give us the option pls

 

[best3444]

At this point I might as well wait for the PS5 Pro. 

[CitizenVectron]

8 hours ago, Xbob42 said:

Yeahhh no one's faked good reflections.

 

Counter:

 

[Xbob42]

That's what I meant! Old games did it fine, modern games suck shit at it!

[Brian]

With PC being integral to devs and pubs, consoles need to be on a 3 year cycle. I, for one, am all for it. 

[HardAct]

5 minutes ago, ManUtdRedDevils said:

With PC being integral to devs and pubs, consoles need to be on a 3 year cycle. I, for one, am all for it. 

  Agree only in principle but not if consoles release and it takes 3yrs to get that console all-the-while your finally unpacking you brand new console {but 3 yr old}  as news of a new console drop in months away!}

[HardAct]

50 minutes ago, best3444 said:

At this point I might as well wait for the PS5 Pro. 

If I see that best buy has ps5's in stock for total members I'll buy one and we can work out the details, I mean I could always take it back if this isn't an option. I will say that I haven't looked at stock since I bought mine but would love to help anyone if I could. I did just check though and their out of stock, message me if this sounds like something your interested in while you continue your search on your end ok?

[Keyser_Soze]

38 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

Counter:

 

35 minutes ago, Xbob42 said:

That's what I meant! Old games did it fine, modern games suck shit at it!

 

The thing is old games had to render the same room mirrored to achieve that effect. That's probably (?) harder to do with newer games.

[Keyser_Soze]

9 minutes ago, HardAct said:

If I see that best buy has ps5's in stock for total members I'll buy one and we can work out the details, I mean I could always take it back if this isn't an option. I will say that I haven't looked at stock since I bought mine but would love to help anyone if I could. I did just check though and their out of stock, message me if this sounds like something your interested in while you continue your search on your end ok?

 

If @best3444 really wants one he could just get an invite from @Amazon

 

 

[Xbob42]

Just now, Keyser_Soze said:

 

 

The thing is old games had to render the same room mirrored to achieve that effect. That's probably (?) harder to do with newer games.

That is also what I said! Well, half of it. I know how they did it and since it's essentially "perfect" (aside from there often being no light bouncing or anything, you know what I mean!) it just means when new games use some blurry ass bullshit it looks terrible.

 

But then RT reflections come along and get both the reflections AND the bounced light and it's just so creamy. And while it is a large visual element that can dramatically enhance atmosphere and mood, it also has potential for gameplay additions! For example, Digital Foundry (and other outlets) recreating a camera obscura just using a pinhole and light in Minecraft. I can only imagine the kind of crazy shit we'd see in puzzle games (especially something like The Witness) with this being a normal thing in games.

[Keyser_Soze]

1 minute ago, Xbob42 said:

That is also what I said! Well, half of it. I know how they did it and since it's essentially "perfect" (aside from there often being no light bouncing or anything, you know what I mean!) it just means when new games use some blurry ass bullshit it looks terrible.

 

But then RT reflections come along and get both the reflections AND the bounced light and it's just so creamy. And while it is a large visual element that can dramatically enhance atmosphere and mood, it also has potential for gameplay additions! For example, Digital Foundry (and other outlets) recreating a camera obscura just using a pinhole and light in Minecraft. I can only imagine the kind of crazy shit we'd see in puzzle games (especially something like The Witness) with this being a normal thing in games.

 

Well yeah I'm with you. I enjoy reflections and not grey squares.

[Brian]

17 minutes ago, HardAct said:

  Agree only in principle but not if consoles release and it takes 3yrs to get that console all-the-while your finally unpacking you brand new console {but 3 yr old}  as news of a new console drop in months away!}

That’s technology. There is always something new right around the corner. 

[Zaku3]

12 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

If @best3444 really wants one he could just get an invite from @Amazon

 

 

 

I dunno why but I accepted the invite. After SM coming to the PC I don't need a PS console. 

[legend]

I don't know about "need," but I'd like one to have better RT performance and to open the door to more ML integrations.

[TwinIon]

Given the huge performance challenges that the current consoles have with the "real" next-gen stuff like UE5, I'm sure that we'll see some Pro consoles this gen, but when and at what price is unclear.

[best3444]

3 hours ago, HardAct said:

If I see that best buy has ps5's in stock for total members I'll buy one and we can work out the details, I mean I could always take it back if this isn't an option. I will say that I haven't looked at stock since I bought mine but would love to help anyone if I could. I did just check though and their out of stock, message me if this sounds like something your interested in while you continue your search on your end ok?

 

That is a really nice offer but I seriously am in no hurry to get a PS5. I'm basically waiting for Naughty Dog's next game tbh. 

[johnny]

regular people don’t care about ray tracing 

[Keyser_Soze]

5 minutes ago, johnny said:

regular people don’t notice ray tracing 

 

Fixed

[legend]

15 minutes ago, johnny said:

regular people don’t care about ray tracing 

 

Why the fuck do I care what regular people think?