Genocide Israel be genociding thread

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

40 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

The British.

 

During the mandate era, the British courted various Islamist groups to play them off against the Zionists and other secular nationalist/pan-Arab movements.

 

To elaborate:

 

Quote

In 1921, the British created the institution the Muslim Higher Council to provide religious leadership. They proceeded to recognize it as representing the Arabs of Palestine, in spite of the existing nationalist Executive Arab Committee that already sought that role. The council's duties included administration of religious endowments and appointment of religious judges and local muftis. Haj Amin was chosen to head the institution and members of his family were given precedence on the council. The rival family, the Nashashibis, were directed towards municipal positions. This was in line with the British strategy to nurture rivalries among the Palestinian elite. They succeeded and the schism created would hamper the growth of modern forms of national organization for decades to come.

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

Just now, Air_Delivery said:

Trail of tears, Battle of Wounded Knee, Indian Removal Act etc etc. I mean I assume you had 11th grade US History. 

People who were here before us were violently removed from their native lands and relocated.

You own that.  I'm not American.

[Guest]

Just now, Air_Delivery said:

Trail of tears, Battle of Wounded Knee, Indian Removal Act etc etc. I mean I assume you had 11th grade US History. 

People who were here before us were violently removed from their native lands and relocated.

(He's Canadian)

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

2 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

The launching of missiles indiscriminately into Israel, largely at civilian targets has no defence.  It is a war crime.  Defending a war crime by suggesting the other side is immoral/is committing war crimes doesn't make it better.

Targeting civilian populations is, and always will be, evil.

 

Yep, sure is!

 

Anything else?

[SuperSpreader]

Ppl in that video of the bombing really need to turn their lights off 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, SuperSpreader said:

Ppl in that video of the bombing really need to turn their lights off 

 

Turning off the lights really doesn't matter in this day and age - this ain't the 1940 London Blitz

 

[Air_Delivery]

1 minute ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

You own that.  I'm not American.

I'm not saying you should. 

I'm saying I'm concerned about the now. Yes the Holocaust was horrific but 99.999999% of the Israeli population wasn't alive during it and using "the Holocaust" card is simply a distraction from their current atrocities. 

[Fizzzzle]

2 minutes ago, Air_Delivery said:

Trail of tears, Battle of Wounded Knee, Indian Removal Act etc etc. I mean I assume you had 11th grade US History. 

People who were here before us were violently removed from their native lands and relocated.

I have a problem with calling the near extermination of the Native Americans "genocide." The vast majority were killed from disease, the vast majority of those unintentionally (discussions of using smallpox as biological warfare didn't happen until hundreds of years after Europeans came and it was only definitely used once that we know of). Outside of disease, there were definitely instances of genocide-y things like the Indian Removal Act, but we're talking about individual instances of acts spread out over 400 years by various different governments and peoples for various reasons.

[AbsolutSurgen]

3 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

Yep, sure is!

 

Anything else?

Probably half of everything going on in the current crisis from both sides.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Hey @Jason - get your self-loathing, anti-Israel, kapo Jewish ass in here

[mclumber1]

Palestinians aren't even liked by their Arab neighbors.  Why else would Egypt maintain a sealed boarder border with Gaza?  

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

5 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

Palestinians aren't even liked by their Arab neighbors.  Why else would Egypt maintain a sealed boarder with Gaza?  

 

The border wasn't sealed during the Muslim Brotherhood-aligned Morsi government.

 

It got re-sealed when the al-Sisi military regime came to power after the coup that deposed him.  And again, Egypt receives $1.3 billion/year in US military aid, second only to Israel.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

I don't care much about the history of these two but it appears the current conflict was started by one side--the Israelis. Forced evictions of Palestinians lead to protests, which Israel then did the same thing that US cops (who they help train!) do and some protesters ended up at the Al Aqsa mosque. Attacking that with tear gas (four times in five days) was deliberately provocative and things spiraled from there as one would expect.

 

All so Bibi doesn't go to prison and keeps his job as PM.

[AbsolutSurgen]

Just now, Air_Delivery said:

I'm not saying you should. 

I'm saying I'm concerned about the now. Yes the Holocaust was horrific but 99.999999% of the Israeli population wasn't alive during it and using "the Holocaust" card is simply a distraction from their current atrocities. 

Again.  I am not defending either side.  There are no "good guys" or "bad guys".  Human nature has us pick a side, and decide that we think one side is right and the other is wrong.

Downplaying the holocaust is something I can never get behind.  "Their current atrocities" pale in comparison to the holocaust.  Around 6 million people, probably more than 50% of the population, were slaughtered over the period of less than 10 years.  You can minimize it.  You can trivialize it.  But that kind of event will stick with people for awhile.

 

The fundamental challenge we have in the Middle East is that in a way "everyone" is right and "everyone" is wrong.

The holocaust is one of the most perverse things that has ever happened in the history of humanity.

The relocation of Palestinians that began about 100 years ago is indefensible.

The current behaviour of both sides borders on (or, may actually be) war crimes.

Just now, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

I don't care much about the history of these two but it appears the current conflict was started by one side--the Israelis. Forced evictions of Palestinians lead to protests, which Israel then did the same thing that US cops (who they help train!) do and some protesters ended up at the Al Aqsa mosque four times in five days. Attacking that with tear gas was deliberately provocative and things spiraled from there as one would expect.

 

All so Bibi doesn't go to prison and keeps his job as PM.

Which evictions have happened recently?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

All so Bibi doesn't go to prison and keeps his job as PM.

 

You actually have a situation in which the leaders of both parties were quite clearly doing things to galvanize support for themselves. Abbas was about to lose an election, the first time they have held them in some 15 years despite him being elected to a 4 year term. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

This isn't a simplistic matter of "good guys" and "bad guys".

This is a matter of relative moral culpability when there is a monumentally insurmountable imbalance of power and the ability of one party to inflict harm on the other party is of a magnitude greater than can be put into words.  Simply put, the greater moral culpability will ALWAYS fall on the side that has the greater power and therefore the greater ability to inflict harm.

 

The notion that there exists an equal amount of moral culpability in this situation is simply ludicrous.

[Joe]

4 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Again.  I am not defending either side.  There are no "good guys" or "bad guys".  Human nature has us pick a side, and decide that we think one side is right and the other is wrong.

Downplaying the holocaust is something I can never get behind.  "Their current atrocities" pale in comparison to the holocaust.  Around 6 million people, probably more than 50% of the population, were slaughtered over the period of less than 10 years.  You can minimize it.  You can trivialize it.  But that kind of event will stick with people for awhile.

 

The fundamental challenge we have in the Middle East is that in a way "everyone" is right and "everyone" is wrong.

The holocaust is one of the most perverse things that has ever happened in the history of humanity.

The relocation of Palestinians that began about 100 years ago is indefensible.

The current behaviour of both sides borders on (or, may actually be) war crimes.

Which evictions have happened recently?

The Shiekh Jarrah evictions.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

5 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Again.  I am not defending either side.  There are no "good guys" or "bad guys".  Human nature has us pick a side, and decide that we think one side is right and the other is wrong.

Downplaying the holocaust is something I can never get behind.  "Their current atrocities" pale in comparison to the holocaust.  Around 6 million people, probably more than 50% of the population, were slaughtered over the period of less than 10 years.  You can minimize it.  You can trivialize it.  But that kind of event will stick with people for awhile.

 

The fundamental challenge we have in the Middle East is that in a way "everyone" is right and "everyone" is wrong.

The holocaust is one of the most perverse things that has ever happened in the history of humanity.

The relocation of Palestinians that began about 100 years ago is indefensible.

The current behaviour of both sides borders on (or, may actually be) war crimes.

Which evictions have happened recently?

Palestinians face renewed violence in Jerusalem for protesting evictions

WWW.PBS.ORG

---

For more than a week, Palestinians have protested throughout Jerusalem over attempts to evict Palestinian families from their homes. Tensions exploded in Jerusalem, and in Gaza, as Hamas...

 

 

[Guest]

The land in question was owned by Jews prior to it being taken from them by Jordan.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

5 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

The land in question was owned by Jews prior to it being taken from them by Jordan.

 

That land hadn't "belonged" to the Jews since 73 CE.

[AbsolutSurgen]

3 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

This isn't a simplistic matter of "good guys" and "bad guys".

This is a matter of relative moral culpability when there is a monumentally insurmountable imbalance of power and the ability to inflict harm.  Simply put, the greater moral culpability will ALWAYS fall on the side that has the greater power and therefore the greater ability to inflict harm.

 

The notion that there exists an equal amount of moral culpability in this situation is simply ludicrous.

Agreed.

The Palestinians have no desire to seek peace.  There is no compromise they are willing to make that will lead to peace.  They are fighting to achieve a purpose that the other side can never accept.

I could make similar assertions about the Israelis.

 

The result is, part of,  the constant conflict we see in the Middle East.

 

I have no interest in allocating relative amounts of moral culpability.  But, neither side has any interest in a peaceful compromise.

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 minute ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

That land hadn't "belonged" to the Jews since 73 CE.

Really?  I think they have it now.

[Guest]

Just now, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

That land hadn't "belonged" to the Jews since 73 CE.

Not "the Jews", specific Jews purchased the land in the 1870s.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

1 minute ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Really?  I think they have it now.

 

Thanks to the British.

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 minute ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

Thanks to the British.

Even a cursory look at the history of Eurasia over the last several thousand years will show that almost every area was constantly subjected to repeated invasions and changes of control.

 

On a complete tangent, were the historical inhabitants of Palestine/Israel even Arabs?  Are Palestinians Arabs?

[Air_Delivery]

7 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Agreed.

The Palestinians have no desire to seek peace.  There is no compromise they are willing to make that will lead to peace.  They are fighting to achieve a purpose that the other side can never accept.

I could make similar assertions about the Israelis.

 

The result is, part of,  the constant conflict we see in the Middle East.

 

I have no interest in allocating relative amounts of moral culpability.  But, neither side has any interest in a peaceful compromise.

As long as Israel continues to build settlements they will be the aggressor. Once they stop then you can talk about the other stuff.

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 minute ago, Air_Delivery said:

As long as Israel continues to build settlements they will be the aggressor. Once they stop then you can talk about the other stuff.

As long as Hamas continues to shoot rockets at civilian targets they will be the aggressor.  Once they stop then you can talk about the other stuff.

[Air_Delivery]

Just now, AbsolutSurgen said:

As long as Hamas continues to shoot rockets at civilian targets they will be the aggressor.  Once they stop then you can talk about the other stuff.

Everything Hamas does is justified as long as Israel keeps building settlements. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

Just now, Air_Delivery said:

Everything Hamas does is justified as long as Israel keeps building settlements. 

War crimes are never justified.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Air_Delivery said:

Everything Hamas does is justified as long as Israel keeps building settlements. 

Killing children is justified. That is a take, my man.

[Joe]

2 minutes ago, Air_Delivery said:

Everything Hamas does is justified as long as Israel keeps building settlements. 

Generally speaking on your side regarding this issue, but you lost me here fam.

[Uaarkson]

2 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

War crimes are never justified.

What are they supposed to do? Roll over and take it? Rocket attacks like this are basically their only means of retaliation. If

your country was being slowly invaded by another bigger way more powerful country, what would be your solution? I’m not justifying any of it - just applying some logic.

[b_m_b_m_b_m]

Every criticism of Hamas applies to Israel as well lol but we aren't giving Hamas billions in aid

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Just now, AbsolutSurgen said:

On a complete tangent, were the historical inhabitants of Palestine/Israel even Arabs?  Are Palestinians Arabs?

 

Kind of/sort of:

 

Quote

The origins of Palestinians are complex and diverse. The region was not originally Arab – its Arabization was a consequence of the inclusion of Palestine within the rapidly expanding Arab Empire conquered by Arabian tribes and their local allies in the first millennium, most significantly during the Muslim conquest of the Levant in the 7th century. Palestine, then part of the Byzantine Diocese of the East, a Hellenized region with a large Christian population, came under the political and cultural influence of Arabic-speaking Muslim dynasties, including the Kurdish Ayyubids. From the conquest down to the 11th century, half of the world's Christians lived under the new Muslim order and there was no attempt for that period to convert them.[85] Over time, nonetheless, much of the existing population of Palestine was Arabized and gradually converted to Islam.[38] Arab populations had existed in Palestine prior to the conquest, and some of these local Arab tribes and Bedouin fought as allies of Byzantium in resisting the invasion, which the archaeological evidence indicates was a 'peaceful conquest',

 

Quote

 

The term "Arab", as well as the presence of Arabians in the Syrian Desert and the Fertile Crescent, is first seen in the Assyrian sources from the 9th century BCE (Eph'al 1984).[92] Southern Palestine had a large Edomite and Arab population by the 4th century BCE.[93] Inscriptional evidence over a millennium from the peripheral areas of Palestine, such as the Golan and the Negev, show a prevalence of Arab names over Aramaic names from the Achaemenid period,550 -330 BCE onwards.[94][95] Bedouins have drifted in waves into Palestine since at least the 7th century, after the Muslim conquest. Some of them, like the Arab al-Sakhr south of Lake Kinneret trace their origins to the Hejaz or Najd in the Arabian Peninsula, while the Ghazawiyya's ancestry is said to go back to the Hauran's Misl al-Jizel tribes.[96] They speak distinct dialects of Arabic in the Galilee and the Negev.[97]

 

Following the Muslim conquest of the Levant by the Arab Muslim Rashiduns, the formerly dominant languages of the area, Aramaic and Greek, were gradually replaced by the Arabic language introduced by the new conquering administrative minority.[98] Among the cultural survivals from pre-Islamic times are the significant Palestinian Christian community, roughly 10% of the overall population in late Ottoman times and 45% of Jerusalem's citizens,[99] and smaller Jewish and Samaritan ones, as well as an Aramaic substratum in some local Palestinian Arabic dialects

 

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

Just now, Uaarkson said:

What are they supposed to do? Roll over and take it? Rocket attacks like this are basically their only means of retaliation. If

your country was being slowly invaded by another bigger way more powerful country, what would be your solution?

Killing civilians is never the solution.