Air_Delivery Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 minute ago, mclumber1 said: Bombing a bus is justified when Israel builds a settlement? Yes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 cool picture Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, Air_Delivery said: Yes. This reminds me of a conversation I had the other night with my redneck brother in law who thinks stealing stuff warrants being shot and killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Just now, sblfilms said: This reminds me of a conversation I had the other night with my redneck brother in law who thinks stealing stuff warrants being shot and killed. If someone comes with a bulldozer to my house, I'm defending my house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 8 minutes ago, Air_Delivery said: Yes. So a bank who owns a foreclosed house is justified in murdering a squatter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, Air_Delivery said: If someone comes with a bulldozer to my house, I'm defending my house. What if it isn't your house, and the people who it rightfully belong to have waited 60 years for the leases (that were made while they were kicked out of the place) to expire and now want their land back? Still cool to murder children? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 minute ago, mclumber1 said: So a bank who owns a foreclosed house is justified in murdering a squatter? I think a government ethnically cleansing people at the end of a gun is a slightly different situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 minute ago, sblfilms said: What if it isn't your house, and the people who it rightfully belong to have waited 60 years for the leases (that were made while they were kicked out of the place) to expire and now want their land back? Still cool to murder children? I'm not following your analogy. Are you saying the land is rightfully the Jews? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Just now, Air_Delivery said: I'm not following your analogy. Are you saying the land is rightfully the Jews? The land at the center of this current dustup (Sheikh Jarrah) was purchased by a small Jewish community in the 1870s and they lived their until they were kicked out by the Jordanians in the late 1940s. After the 1967 war, the original owners wanted the land back from the Palestinians who were living on it. The Israeli government said they couldn't expel the people living there because they had leases (two 30-year terms) granted to them by the Jordanian government. These leases expired a few years ago and all those living there haven't even been paying rent. They are being evicted by the landowners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 minute ago, sblfilms said: The land at the center of this current dustup (Sheikh Jarrah) was purchased by a small Jewish community in the 1870s and they lived their until they were kicked out by the Jordanians in the late 1940s. After the 1967 war, the original owners wanted the land back from the Palestinians who were living on it. The Israeli government said they couldn't expel the people living there because they had leases (two 30-year terms) granted to them by the Jordanian government. These leases expired a few years ago and all those living there haven't even been paying rent. They are being evicted by the landowners. I actually didn't know the specifics of this particular skirmish. This is the best article I could find on it that didn't have an obvious slant. It is not as clear cut as your description. Updated: Sheikh Jarrah, the story behind the story - Unpacked JEWISHUNPACKED.COM Boiled down the situation in this small East Jerusalem neighborhood is a property rights battle in an area that has changed hands many times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 5 minutes ago, Air_Delivery said: I actually didn't know the specifics of this particular skirmish. This is the best article I could find on it that didn't have an obvious slant. It is not as clear cut as your description. Updated: Sheikh Jarrah, the story behind the story - Unpacked JEWISHUNPACKED.COM Boiled down the situation in this small East Jerusalem neighborhood is a property rights battle in an area that has changed hands many times. What in the article fundamentally changes what I described? It’s saying the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastlevaniaNut18 Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 This has been an interesting discussion. I learned a few new things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 14 minutes ago, sblfilms said: What in the article fundamentally changes what I described? It’s saying the same thing. We are talking about property rights over the course of 150 years and multiple changes of hands of different countries. I mean what is even land ownership? List of towns and villages depopulated during the 1947–1949 Palestine war - Wikipedia EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG This isn't like land ownership in a stable country with a continuity of laws. People were displaced and expelled many many times between when this land was supposedly bought and now. The only reason why Israel is doing this is because they have the power and they want to make all Jerusalem Jewish. This is merely an excuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 9 minutes ago, Air_Delivery said: We are talking about property rights over the course of 150 years and multiple changes of hands of different countries. I mean what is even land ownership? List of towns and villages depopulated during the 1947–1949 Palestine war - Wikipedia EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG People were displaced and expelled many many times between when this land was supposedly bought and now. The only reason why Israel is doing this is because they have the power and they want to make all Jerusalem Jewish. This is merely an excuse. If this is your take I question whether you even read your own link. The members of the community and their descendants lived on the land uninterrupted despite different rulers from around 1875 until 1948 when they were expelled by the Jordanians. The land was given back to the rightful owners in the 1970s. Even your use of “supposedly bought” is bizarre because literally nobody disputes that, not even in the current legal dispute! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 12 minutes ago, sblfilms said: If this is your take I question whether you even read your own link. The members of the community and their descendants lived on the land uninterrupted despite different rulers from around 1875 until 1948 when they were expelled by the Jordanians. The land was given back to the rightful owners in the 1970s. Even your use of “supposedly bought” is bizarre because literally nobody disputes that, not even in the current legal dispute! I didn't say that. I'm saying the Jews were expelled when Jordan owned it. So fucking what? What makes this land ownership so special? What about the property rights for all the Palestinians that were expelled between now and then? Does Israel plan on giving that land back? Why does this only work one way? Any talk about property rights in that region going back that far with all the land stealing that has gone on is laughable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 minute ago, Air_Delivery said: I didn't say that. I'm saying the Jews were expelled when Jordan owned it. So fucking what? What makes this land ownership so special? What about the property rights for all the Palestinians that were expelled between now and then? Does Israel plan on giving that land back? Why does this only work one way? You just said “We are talking about property rights over the course of 150years and multiple changes of hands of different countries” which is a statement that obviously is referring to the case at hand. The rightful land owners were given it back in the 70s, and were still forced to accept the leases granted by the Jordanians. Those leases expired. Why should the people living in these houses be allowed to stay their rent free after their leases expired? The issue is *not* who owns the land or whether it should be given back, that was settled in the 70s. The issue today is whether or not people who no longer have a lease and aren’t paying rent can continue living there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 4 minutes ago, sblfilms said: You just said “We are talking about property rights over the course of 150years and multiple changes of hands of different countries” which is a statement that obviously is referring to the case at hand. The rightful land owners were given it back in the 70s, and were still forced to accept the leases granted by the Jordanians. Those leases expired. Why should the people living in these houses be allowed to stay their rent free after their leases expired? The issue is *not* who owns the land or whether it should be given back, that was settled in the 70s. The issue today is whether or not people who no longer have a lease and aren’t paying rent can continue living there. It was settled by and given back by Israel. I couldn't give two shits about the Israeli concept of land rights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 The ownership of the land is not even disputed by the occupants. The disagreement is that the occupants believe their ancestors were coerced into the deals they made in the 80s. They were offered extensions to their leases as recently as this month and are still refusing. How long should the landowners allow their tenants to live there free of charge? Forever? Anyway, I’m going to bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 15 minutes ago, sblfilms said: The ownership of the land is not even disputed by the occupants. The disagreement is that the occupants believe their ancestors were coerced into the deals they made in the 80s. They were offered extensions to their leases as recently as this month and are still refusing. How long should the landowners allow their tenants to live there free of charge? Forever? Anyway, I’m going to bed. And it all comes back to the 1970 Israeli law that allows Jews to reclaim East Jerusalem land owned by Jews before 1948, which is a crock of bs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema- Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Is it weird to anyone else how Isreal can brag about the success of Iron Dome but also use rockets as its only excuse for the slow-rolling genocide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 I'm not going to pretend that similar sentiments have not been expressed by Palestinians. Of course they have - we've seen countless videos of both secular and Islamist Palestinian political/military leaders as well as ordinary Palestinian civilians wishing to "push the Jews into the sea" or "reduce Tel Aviv to ashes". But again, I come back to the point that I made earlier: the unquestionably overwhelming political/economic/military superiority of the Israelis makes such sentiments expressed by them to be inherently worse morally than similar sentiments expressed by the Palestinians. The extreme power imbalance makes all the difference from a perspective of moral culpability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: I'm not going to pretend that similar sentiments have not been expressed by Palestinians. Of course they have - we've seen countless videos of both secular and Islamist Palestinian political/military leaders as well as ordinary Palestinian civilians wishing to "push the Jews into the sea" or "reduce Tel Aviv to ashes". But again, I come back to the point that I made earlier: the unquestionably overwhelming political/economic/military superiority of the Israelis makes such sentiments expressed by them to be inherently worse morally than similar sentiments expressed by the Palestinians. The extreme power imbalance makes all the difference from a perspective of moral culpability. I also think the fact that they both want to eliminate each other is beside the point. It is a waste of time listening to any of them. Actions are what matter, and right now Israel's actions are at fault for this blow up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 21 hours ago, osxmatt said: It turns out this was actually a trick to get Hamas to flee inside their tunnel network that the IDF proceeded with smashing from the air Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signifyin(g)Monkey Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 13 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: I'm not going to pretend that similar sentiments have not been expressed by Palestinians. Of course they have - we've seen countless videos of both secular and Islamist Palestinian political/military leaders as well as ordinary Palestinian civilians wishing to "push the Jews into the sea" or "reduce Tel Aviv to ashes". But again, I come back to the point that I made earlier: the unquestionably overwhelming political/economic/military superiority of the Israelis makes such sentiments expressed by them to be inherently worse morally than similar sentiments expressed by the Palestinians. The extreme power imbalance makes all the difference from a perspective of moral culpability. This has been the problem for quite some time now. It’s not that Israel is wrong to defend themselves in these kinds of situations, it’s that when they *do*, the destructive scale of their retaliation is all out of proportion with the destructive scale of the initial Palestinian instigation. But it’s also stupid to say that makes it okay for Palestinian islamists to launch rockets into Israeli neighborhoods—shitty little rockets though they may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 2 hours ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said: This has been the problem for quite some time now. It’s not that Israel is wrong to defend themselves in these kinds of situations, it’s that when they *do*, the destructive scale of their retaliation is all out of proportion with the destructive scale of the initial Palestinian instigation. But it’s also stupid to say that makes it okay for Palestinian islamists to launch rockets into Israeli neighborhoods—shitty little rockets though they may be. Just when I thought you were out of good takes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 3 hours ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said: This has been the problem for quite some time now. It’s not that Israel is wrong to defend themselves in these kinds of situations, it’s that when they *do*, the destructive scale of their retaliation is all out of proportion with the destructive scale of the initial Palestinian instigation. But it’s also stupid to say that makes it okay for Palestinian islamists to launch rockets into Israeli neighborhoods—shitty little rockets though they may be. The other part of this is that even if they always reacted proportionally there would still be the glaring issue of why the Palestinians decide to shoot rockets at them in the first place. Exhibit A: I remember seeing a news report several a number of years ago about how they'll do shit like plow a road in the middle of a farmer's field and then make that farmer wait hours at a checkpoint to go to the side of his farm on the far side of the checkpoint and then again getting back to the side where his house is. So not only has the guy lost land to the road, the crops on the far side rot because of the inability to farm them in a timely fashion. Like, maybe Israel should stop kicking the Palestinians in the nuts if they want the Palestinians to stop hitting back. It's like a cop screaming "stop resisting and comply with my order to stand up!" while you're on the ground convulsing from his taser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 And actually I think proportionality is really a red herring. Even if it's pissant little attacks I think it's warranted to bring the hammer down to make sure it stops for real if it goes on for long enough. The real problem is framing it as "Palestinian instigation". Stop sending insane settlers in to steal their land and kick the shit out of them, stop making it impossible for them to live their lives, and then if the Palestinians still shoot rockets at Israel then yeah we can maybe definitively say the Palestinians started it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 IGN added a Palestinian flag to its logo probably because today is the 73rd anniversary of Israel's independence in 1948 which is referred to by Palestinians as Dhikra an-Nakba (Memory of the Catastrophe). "Video Game News, Reviews, and Walkthroughs - IGN" Video Game News, Reviews, and Walkthroughs - IGN WWW.IGN.COM IGN is your #1 destination for all video game news, expert reviews, and walkthroughs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 IGN's Twitter account: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 The building was supposedly evacuated prior to the strike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 2 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: IGN added a Palestinian flag to its logo probably because today is the 73rd anniversary of Israel's independence in 1948 which is referred to by Palestinians as Dhikra an-Nakba (Memory of the Catastrophe). "Video Game News, Reviews, and Walkthroughs - IGN" Video Game News, Reviews, and Walkthroughs - IGN WWW.IGN.COM IGN is your #1 destination for all video game news, expert reviews, and walkthroughs. Clicking on the flag on the banner leads directly to this page: How to Help Palestinian Civilians - IGN WWW.IGN.COM Here are ways you can help others during the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict by donating to various organizations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 6 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: The building was supposedly evacuated prior to the strike. Looks like they evacuated before the strike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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