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NPR: Getting To Know The DSA


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KURTZLEBEN: On top of that, Isserman says, movements like Black Lives Matter and Occupy Wall Street acquainted young Americans with organizing, making them more open to a group like the DSA with its ambitious agenda. At the Rivesville meetup, member Joe Cernelli explained his vision.

 

CERNELLI: I think we just need to realize that the end goal is ultimately, like, social control of the means of production, you know? We don't just want to improve capitalism. We will ultimately want to get rid of it.

 

KURTZLEBEN: That's not just his idea. The DSA views capitalism as an oppressive system. In the DSA's ideal economy, some sectors - like health care and utilities - would be government-controlled. Other businesses would be worker-owned, as DSA National Director Maria Svart explains it.

 

MARIA SVART: Let's say you were negotiating at a bargaining table with workers in a bakery. And the workers said, look - we want more than a quarter of the bread; we want half of the bread. The Socialists would say - actually, we want the bakery (laughter). We want to control it all for all of our benefit.

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/19/630394669/getting-to-know-the-dsa

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6 minutes ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

I'm not up to snuff on my political terminology so please correct me if I'm wrong. But doesn't taking the means of production basically mean communism? Socialism to me means government provided services for the public good.

Communism is essentially end-state socialism.  On one end of the socialism spectrum, you have the European-style Social Democrats, on the other the Marxists.

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1 hour ago, SFLUFAN said:

Communism is essentially end-state socialism.  On one end of the socialism spectrum, you have the European-style Social Democrats, on the other the Marxists.

Communism is the classless end, but socialism under Marxism means seizing the means of production, likely by the government, as a middle step. Social democracy has no place under the Marxist umbrella. However DSA is a big tent organization that allows social democrats as allies, but to many, that is just a means to an end to eventually ending capitalism altogether and creating our very own Venezuela right here in America (or take your pick of communist nations). 

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Socialism is undoubtedly coming to the states, its just a matter of how much and how far, i can easily see the Midwest going for it big time, they've been sold the tax cuts for the rich will solve everything only to watch factories close up and leave anyways and its to the point where schools can't stay open all week in some of the states.

 

 

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On 7/20/2018 at 7:46 PM, Massdriver said:

Communism is the classless end, but socialism under Marxism means seizing the means of production, likely by the government, as a middle step. Social democracy has no place under the Marxist umbrella. However DSA is a big tent organization that allows social democrats as allies, but to many, that is just a means to an end to eventually ending capitalism altogether and creating our very own Venezuela right here in America (or take your pick of communist nations). 

 

That's completely alarmist. I'd be very surprised if America got anything close to where your concerns lie. The best we'll achieve anytime soon is European-style democratic republic socialism, and that's a good thing this country clearly needs. 

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Being afraid of the end-game of a group and allowing it to prevent you from implementing any of their goals is basically cowardice. The US needs more socialism. Does it need end-game socialism? Probably not. But it needs democratic socialism like Canada or to an even greater extend the Scandinavian countries. Those nations haven't slid into Marxism.

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6 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

Being afraid of the end-game of a group and allowing it to prevent you from implementing any of their goals is basically cowardice. The US needs more socialism. Does it need end-game socialism? Probably not. But it needs democratic socialism like Canada or to an even greater extend the Scandinavian countries. Those nations haven't slid into Marxism.

Those countries haven't. What Republicans are saying (and this axiom is always true) is that under a socialist government, they will take the country to a totalitarian end game.

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11 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

Being afraid of the end-game of a group and allowing it to prevent you from implementing any of their goals is basically cowardice. The US needs more socialism. Does it need end-game socialism? Probably not. But it needs democratic socialism like Canada or to an even greater extend the Scandinavian countries. Those nations haven't slid into Marxism.

 

Exactly. Goddamn. 

 

3 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said:

Those countries haven't. What Republicans are saying (and this axiom is always true) is that under a socialist government, they will take the country to a totalitarian end game.

 

Which, of course, is bullshit, as you know, heh. But hey, working to create nice things for the public and collective good within reason through government - crazy talk, amirite? :silly:

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15 minutes ago, RedSoxFan9 said:

 

vEnEzUeLa

 

Out of curiosity, do you support the DSA as outlined in the OP? That seems further than even someone like Bernie.

 

Straight-up, I don't agree with the demonization with the DSA and I think that's why people like Meghan McCain go straight to Venezuela even though that's not what the other guests were talking about (scare people into the extremes so the ideas never take hold). I'm not sure the OP is something I'm actually for, and this is reading what they say they're for, not what conservatives tell me they're for.

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On 7/24/2018 at 10:34 AM, CitizenVectron said:

Being afraid of the end-game of a group and allowing it to prevent you from implementing any of their goals is basically cowardice. The US needs more socialism. Does it need end-game socialism? Probably not. But it needs democratic socialism like Canada or to an even greater extend the Scandinavian countries. Those nations haven't slid into Marxism.

Why is there even a probability that we need end-game socialism? I agree that we need more redistribution, but we don't need end-game socialism. 

On 7/24/2018 at 10:27 AM, Greatoneshere said:

 

That's completely alarmist. I'd be very surprised if America got anything close to where your concerns lie. The best we'll achieve anytime soon is European-style democratic republic socialism, and that's a good thing this country clearly needs. 

What was alarmist about my statement? Everything I said about the DSA is true.

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33 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

What was alarmist about my statement? Everything I said about the DSA is true.

 

It's alarmist to be worried about the DSA as a real threat to our country's government or values. They aren't a real threat. As I said, the closest to the DSA we'll ever get is European-style democratic republic socialism, which is a good thing for us. 

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6 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

It's alarmist to be worried about the DSA as a real threat to our country's government or values. They aren't a real threat. As I said, the closest to the DSA we'll ever get is European-style democratic republic socialism, which is a good thing for us. 

I am concerned that both sides are moving towards extremes. The Republican Party's move towards a nationalistic Trumpism is very concerning, and they're in power. 6 years ago, I would have told you that Trump has no chance, and the Republicans would neither nominate nor embrace his type of politics.

 

I have always laughed off socialism in America (and the ridiculous labels on Obama as a socialist), but things have changed in the last few years. I didn't hear DSA on morning edition a few years ago. Bernie moved Democrats to the fringe left, and now there is a growing wing that is full on socialist and further to the left than he is.  I'm not losing any sleep because the true socialists are a fringe, but I do think that Trump proved a party can be radically transformed rather quickly with the right leader. 

 

Anyway, I'm not losing any sleep, and judging by most of the posts on this board, I think I'm less alarmist and emotional over politics in general. I'm optimistic that things will work out in the end. That doesn't mean I can't point out that the DSA sucks.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Massdriver said:

Bernie moved Democrats to the fringe left, and now there is a growing wing that is full on socialist and further to the left than he is.

 

"Fringe left" only in the US context of our two major political parties being what would count as center-right and far-right in basically any European country.

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