General Gaming Microsoft Genius (/s) Phil Spencer blames Capitalism

[Paperclyp]

3 minutes ago, ShreddieMercury said:

 

This is accurate.

 

If people want interesting games, play what Nintendo puts out.  Tears of the Kingdom is more radical from a design perspective than anything from the last two generations of AAA gaming, and it's on a console that gamers yell constantly about being underpowered.

 

I like BOTW and TOTK just fine but I wouldn’t consider anything they did to be particularly radical. Nor has the switch platform been a particularly interesting showcase for Nintendo’s creativity. They’ve had some good ones, don’t get me wrong, but I’m not blown away by anything Nintendo has done in terms of like breaking the AAA mold. 

[crispy4000]

8 minutes ago, ShreddieMercury said:

 

This is accurate.

 

If people want interesting games, play what Nintendo puts out.  Tears of the Kingdom is more radical from a design perspective than anything from the last two generations of AAA gaming, and it's on a console that gamers yell constantly about being underpowered.

 

 

5 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

Yep. As far as I am concerned, Nintendo is the only one that is actually pushing boundaries. Graphics don't count as pushing boundaries, by the way—maybe they did back when you could literally make something that looks completely different between gens (I'm thinking SNES->N64 type change), but these days it's incremental. Make games more interesting and more engaging. I'd take 2 AA games and 5 A games that all try new things over 1 AAA game that costs the same to develop and is just the fourth iteration of a franchise with better graphics (and now has paid microtransactions). 

Holier than thou attitude toward Nintendo that should give more credit to the indie market, not to mention projects like Returnal and Hi-Fi Rush. 
 

No one has a monopoly on interesting games.

[CitizenVectron]

1 minute ago, crispy4000 said:

 

Holier than thou attitude toward Nintendo that should give more credit to the indie market, not to mention projects like Returnal and Hi-Fi Rush. 

 

I also give big credit to indie developers, I was only comparing between the big three. One of my most-played games this past year was Slay the Spire (got into it late) and it's incredible. I'm not spending $80CAD on a AAA game with a 12-hour single-player story when I can spend $15 on a Steam indie game that will get me 15-20 hours of unique content! That's not to say all AAA games are bad. I'd consider BG3 AAA (even if some don't) and it's amazing. It doesn't really push boundaries, but it does max out everything it's trying to do, and it gives the player a huge amount of freedom. 

[Paperclyp]

@crispy4000 well said 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

16 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

There are good executives and bad executives.  Some have done a phenomenal job at running their studios, while others...  haven't.

Looking at the way MSFT first party releases have come out lately I cannot say their studios have good executives running the studios. Maybe these studios are amazing places to work, with great work life balance, more than fair compensation, and plenty of career growth opportunities. …but considering how much long time MSFT studios relies on temporary contract employees that can’t even finish their work on a game, I feel they are barely better than anywhere else. And what’s the final product? Something that took 5+ years to make, but feels like it was rushed out the door after 18 months. 
 

Phill is saying the quiet part out loud. Stuff we all know to be true. Which is why we can get far more creativity from smaller indy and AA studios who aren’t focused on profit margins and investor dividends. They’re only focused on getting the game they wanted to make finished. Whether it is a niche game or something that could blow up with millions of players. Yes, capitalism has been a growing problem for this industry. Nearly all the big players aren’t trying to execute on a creative vision or pushing an envelope creatively. They aren’t even really looking at growth. They’re looking at milking the industry and consumers as it is now by chasing trends.
 

Sure Phil is in a position of power. There’s only so much he can get away with not doing to try to meet quarterly earnings numbers before MSFT replaces him with somebody worse, like a Jim Ryan or Bobby Kotick. But yeah he looks like a bit if a hypocrite, because he and other executives reporting to him are very much benefiting while all the pains of capitalism are affecting gamers, and more importantly the people who are losing their jobs. Like he KNEW after acquiring Bethesda there would be layoffs. Just as there will be after the merger of ABK. 
 

what I want to know is, what is Phill’s plan then? Do nothing but blame capitalism while people below him pay the price for the greed at the top? 

[SuperSpreader]

6 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

Something that took 5+ years to make, but feels like it was rushed out the door after 18 months. 

 

A consistent theme across Microsoft studios! What could it possibly mean!? 

 

7 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

what I want to know is, what is Phill’s plan then? Do nothing but blame capitalism while people below him pay the price for the greed at the top? 

 

Imagine blaming yourself! 

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Meanwhile, over in Sony land, the corporate president/COO/CFO just took over as the interim CEO of the PlayStation division today which could only mean that the "aggressive" cost-rationalization will begin in earnest.

 

Sony president Hiroki Totoki officially begins his role as interim CEO of PlayStation | VGC

WWW.VIDEOGAMESCHRONICLE.COM

---

Totoki will be more hands-on with Sony’s gaming arm as a successor for Jim Ryan is found…

 

 

Quote

Sony president, COO and CFO Hiroki Totoki officially begins his role as interim CEO of PlayStation today.

 

It was announced in September 2023 that then-CEO Jim Ryan would be stepping down, with Hiroki Totoki taking over on April 1, 2024.

 

Ryan has now officially left the company, with Totoki stepping in to oversee the PlayStation division (while keeping his current role at Sony Group) while a more permament successor to Ryan is found.

 

“Mr Totoki will work closely with Sony Group Corporation Chairman and CEO Kenichiro Yoshida and the management team of SIE to help define the next chapter of PlayStation’s future, including the succession of the SIE CEO role,” Sony said in a statement at the time.

 

Although his interim CEO role officially starts today, Totoki had already started visiting studios in recent months and has already made his views on Sony’s gaming strategy clear.

 

In February, during a Q&A session following Sony’s latest financial results briefing, Totoki said he wants Sony to be “aggressive” when it comes to improving its gaming division’s profit margins, which he says can partly be achieved with a greater focus on bringing first-party games to PC.

 

[SuperSpreader]

17 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

much long time MSFT studios relies on temporary contract employees that can’t even finish their work

 

Btw this stems from the Seattle tech culture, it relies on temp roles. There are people who work for companies like Microsoft (doesn't have to be games) for a year, the contract expires, they take 3 mo off and come back year after year. No retirement plans, few health benefits, etc. 

 

[ShreddieMercury]

Can you guys let me know which indie games have the type of vision, polish, music, and emergent game design of Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom??  Will rush to buy immediately.  Already played Outer Wilds btw.

[Keyser_Soze]

I like how Nintendo  was so innovative with the switch by recreating lesser versions of games that had been on their prior systems. They are so awesome!

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

14 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

Btw this stems from the Seattle tech culture, it relies on temp roles. There are people who work for companies like Microsoft (doesn't have to be games) for a year, the contract expires, they take 3 mo off and come back year after year. No retirement plans, few health benefits, etc. 

 

yeah to try and discourage the over usage and exploitation of temp workers Washington passed legislation setting contract term limits with a cool down in between contract terms. Ive read/heard of groups at studios that below the leads are just temps. So it ends up being temps training temps who then have to leave so the past temp trains the next new temp. The experience and work that group does is done like a game of telephone, with no institutional knowledge and experience. 
 

maybe uncle Phil is more altruistic than most executives and all he needs is a promotion to MSFT CEO where he can bring about substantial change across all of Microsoft. But I doubt he could or would even if given the chance. 

[SuperSpreader]

7 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

being temps training temps who then have to leave so the past temp trains the next new temp.

 

Not to give too much away but I worked with a Sony... place and everyone was a temp (I wasn't). It felt like a herd of cattle with everyone keeping their heads down/afraid of giving an opinion for fear or getting sent to the meat grinder. I hated we treated people that way and bailed 8mo later. I saw all the people like me yukking it up having a great time being the bosses of scared people. Fuck that. Disgusting. 

[Keyser_Soze]

3 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

Not to give too much away but I worked with a Sony... place and everyone was a temp (I wasn't). It felt like a herd of cattle with everyone keeping their heads down/afraid of giving an opinion for fear or getting sent to the meat grinder. I hated we treated people that way and bailed 8mo later. I saw all the people like me yukking it up having a great time being the bosses of scared people. Fuck that. Disgusting. 

 

I mean this isn't just reserved for game companies it's any major company. I worked for Callaway as a temp. Supposedly after 9 months they were supposed to bring you on full time or let you go. So they let me go then hire me back like a month later, this was like for 4 years. Eventually it got to a point where they didn't even do the laying off after 9 months. Then eventually they discovered Mexico and laid everyone off temp or otherwise and moved the jobs to Mexico. This was 12 years ago, things are exactly the same now as they were then in terms of this stuff.

[SuperSpreader]

3 minutes ago, Keyser_Soze said:

 

I mean this isn't just reserved for game companies it's any major company. I worked for Callaway as a temp. Supposedly after 9 months they were supposed to bring you on full time or let you go. So they let me go then hire me back like a month later, this was like for 4 years. Eventually it got to a point where they didn't even do the laying off after 9 months. Then eventually they discovered Mexico and laid everyone off temp or otherwise and moved the jobs to Mexico. This was 12 years ago, things are exactly the same now as they were then in terms of this stuff.

 

Yeah 100% 

 

The Seattle comment is there's a culture there or promising FT to people but they have to "prove themselves" as Temps first. Then they just milk people until you're one of the lucky ones to make the cut or you leave. They hardly ever hire anyone before making them do the temp bs regardless of seniority. (Exec/Sr Management excluded.)

[Biggie]

Why y’all always hating on my boy Xbox Philly?

[legend]

14 hours ago, SuperSpreader said:

Executives think Ai is gonna reduce costs to make games (without affecting their income of course) and also think Game Streaming is the future (which requires ai assistance because of inherit latency issues). So the executive vision of games is Games made by Ai played by Ai that you pay for. 

 

This industry will be dead within 2 gens if these dudes don't go. 

 

There's a lot of work in AI for games that isn't about asset or code generation and can lead to useful things that expand the game rather than replace developer work. So don't lump all AI for games into that bucket!

[Paperclyp]

2 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said:

I like how Nintendo  was so innovative with the switch by recreating lesser versions of games that had been on their prior systems. They are so awesome!

Yeah but name me a single game that is better than vague categories I’ve stated?

[Dodger]

I do find it funny people are like yeah fuck capitalism what's Phil supposed to do. Then you say how about buy an Xbox and support the platform and the answer is nah what for I got a PC already or I got a PS5 and I'm not interested in Halo/Gears/Forza or whatever the case may be. Yeah fuck capitalism and all, but Phil has to make Xbox an attractive platform that people want to buy into and it just hasn't worked. Maybe the day one PC thing is ultimately the wrong answer, and maybe this forum is the wrong place as many of you have high end gaming PC's but that's the answer most of you give when these threads come up. Why buy an Xbox when I have a high end gaming PC. 

 

 

[Ghost_MH]

On 3/31/2024 at 6:05 AM, Xbob42 said:

But yes, in general, our bizarre stock-market-centric world is very antithetical to creative endeavors, or doing anything but seeking growth for all eternity, at the cost of literally anything else.

 

Someone who better understands the TSE and Nikkei, please chime in, because I have wondered if Nintendo not being listed on the NYSE gives them a bit more freedom to be try for more long term and sustainable practices over the more infinite growth and short term success Sony and Microsoft are trapped in.

[legend]

Hot take: the problem isn't "capitalism." The problem is some combination of investors being myopic idiots and bad mechanism design of the stock market that allows for day-trading nonsense.

[SuperSpreader]

11 minutes ago, Dodger said:

Why buy an Xbox when I have a high end gaming PC. 

 

That's what I thought was weird when Xbox Original came out.. I was like... but you already have a gaming platform monopoly, why are you trying to compete with yourself? Imagine if they had made a Steam before Valve? Instead we have the lol Windows store way too late. 

[Dodger]

3 minutes ago, legend said:

Hot take: the problem isn't "capitalism." The problem is some combination of investors being myopic idiots and bad mechanism design of the stock market that allows for day-trading nonsense.

 

I mean you can say Phil Spencer has failed at his job but you can't say the dude hasn't tried. While "infinite growth" isn't possible you're just not going to make it with negative growth, especially when you were already a distant third in the market. This is hardly a case of the game sold 4 million copies and didn't meet expectations fuck you level of capitalism.

[SuperSpreader]

15 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

Someone who better understands the TSE and Nikkei, please chime in, because I have wondered if Nintendo not being listed on the NYSE gives them a bit more freedom to be try for more long term and sustainable practices over the more infinite growth and short term success Sony and Microsoft are trapped in.

 

This is what major third party publishers (all of them) would tell employees anytime anyone asked about making something original.

 

They'd shut down the conversation saying being a Public company meant they couldn't and so we had to create sequels. (I think it's bs from unimaginative people that can't envision trusting someone else or don't understand creativity.) When they made an effort they'd grant the permission to buddies they trusted who also lacked imagination but loved being camera facing and power. Then flop flop flop the workers would get chopped. 

[Paperclyp]

I would just reiterate that I think two things can be true: Phil could have done a less than optimal job (though I think some of the dispersions cast on him in this thread are extremely hyperbolic) and a large part of the decisions he’s made have been made out of pressure outside his control - call it capitalism or whatever you want. 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

32 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

 

This is what major third party publishers (all of them) would tell employees anytime anyone asked about making something original.

 

They'd shut down the conversation saying being a Public company meant they couldn't and so we had to create sequels. (I think it's bs from unimaginative people that can't envision trusting someone else or don't understand creativity.) When they made an effort they'd grant the permission to buddies they trusted who also lacked imagination but loved being camera facing and power. Then flop flop flop the workers would get chopped. 

to be fair Nintendo doesn’t make new IP very often. And when they do it is more often using existing characters. They use their existing franchises and characters to explore new gameplay ideas. Which is still more than many big AAA developers and publishers allow for, where they make the gameplay more safe and just to add extra monetization. 

[Ghost_MH]

46 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

to be fair Nintendo doesn’t make new IP very often. And when they do it is more often using existing characters. They use their existing franchises and characters to explore new gameplay ideas. Which is still more than many big AAA developers and publishers allow for, where they make the gameplay more safe and just to add extra monetization. 

 

I think Nintendo works on new IP more than people might give them credit for. Sometimes it's for new things that aren't very successful, but they should get some credit for trying. Game Builder Garage, Ring Fit Adventure, 1-2 Switch, and Labo should count as new IP even they aren't all very traditional games. Nintendo sometimes gets labeled as relying too much on their existing IP, but I think that's because the weird stuff they do sometimes gets forgotten.

 

Nintendo also does this thing where they reach out to third party devs asking for help coming up with new game ideas, like when they reached out to Platinum for a hard game and got Astral Chain or Ruby Party for a new visual novel and got that Buddy game that never made it to the US.

[legend]

2 hours ago, Dodger said:

 

I mean you can say Phil Spencer has failed at his job but you can't say the dude hasn't tried. While "infinite growth" isn't possible you're just not going to make it with negative growth, especially when you were already a distant third in the market. This is hardly a case of the game sold 4 million copies and didn't meet expectations fuck you level of capitalism.

 

I'm not blaming Phil per se. If my hot take assertion is right, the problem lies above him.

[crispy4000]

4 hours ago, ShreddieMercury said:

Can you guys let me know which indie games have the type of vision, polish, music, and emergent game design of Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom??  Will rush to buy immediately.  Already played Outer Wilds btw.

Vision with open world emergent gameplay would be hard to match with an indie budget.  Especially in ToTK’s case.  You see more examples of procedural generation in that space. (ie: No Man’s Sky, Valheim)

 

But plenty of indies have the polish of a Nintendo title.  Yooka Laylee and the Impossible Lair immediately comes to mind.  Matches the aesthetic, and is better than a lot of classic Rare games even.

 

Also, B and C tier Nintendo isn’t unthinkable to match, or supersede.  Most great indies do.  Like, would I rather pay Hades or Mario and the Origami King?

[SuperSpreader]

Phil is like Dak Prescott, a symptom of a larger issue that can't be fixed. 

[Dodger]

1 hour ago, legend said:

 

I'm not blaming Phil per se. If my hot take assertion is right, the problem lies above him.

 

Phil found out the hard way you can't get a $70 billion investment into your division  with a massive M&A headache without the company wanting immediate returns. The original plan must have been to keep everything exclusive, because they could have saved millions in attorney fees and gotten this done a lot faster if they told everyone all ABK games will remain multiplatform. 

[SuperSpreader]

3 hours ago, Dodger said:

 

Phil found out the hard way you can't get a $70 billion investment into your division  with a massive M&A headache without the company wanting immediate returns. The original plan must have been to keep everything exclusive, because they could have saved millions in attorney fees and gotten this done a lot faster if they told everyone all ABK games will remain multiplatform. 

 

Also keep in mind COD was the mover of the Xbox 360. Buying COD exclusivity was probably the dream. COD 360 titles are still no1 even on current gen(gamepass):